248 réponses à ce sujet

[InHarmsWay]

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

I still don't see how Synthesis solves anything as even the cyborg people can still create synthetics and these synthetics can still fight back.

I find the solution is to get people to think differently.

Yes, but because the creators are partly synthetic, there won't exist that innate fear of a synthetic revolt that all organics seem to have.

There will still be a superiority complex. As Saren said it, "I am a hybrid of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither."

This would have the cyborgs still likely treating the synthetics creations as lesser beings.

I would agree with that, but superiority complex is better than irrational fear and attempted genocide wouldn't you say?

Actually it's just as bad. Superiority compelxes leads to segregation, slavery, ethnic cleansings. The same results from fear. The two both have the exact same potential for disaster so no, I do not agree.

Think things through. If more synthetics are created, you have the Geth around who would ensure if they gained consciousness, they would be free to choose their own path. Plus the galaxy has already learned from the Geth experience. Finally, the fear that led to rash decisions in the Morning War won't be there.

We repeat history all the time. Having it happen once doesn't mean we won't do it again. It takes the event happening several times before we actually learn from it. Another Morning War is still just as likely to happen again.

[111987]

GlassElephant wrote...

Starchild tells you that the peace won't last with destroy.  The only option that Starchild, this all-knowing AI, says peace can last is with synthesis.  You also need a higher EMS to unlock synthesis, the "new solution" that was unlocked with the most work on the Crucible.

The reason the reapers reap is because synthetics will always kill organics, and peace isn't possible to last.  Synthesis solves this problem, apparently.

You don't have to believe the Starchild.

[DJBare]

It would help if people stop equating the choices as a reward for high EMS, they are not the bloody rewards!, the rewards for high EMS are things such as london not being destoyed or the earth being fried to a crisp.

The control and synthesis choice are presented by the catalyst because you are a threat with high EMS, every line spoken by the catalyst is to steer you clear of the destroy option in the hope you choose one of the other choices.

Again, the choices are NOT rewards for high EMS.

Modifié par DJBare, 22 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[111987]

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

I still don't see how Synthesis solves anything as even the cyborg people can still create synthetics and these synthetics can still fight back.

I find the solution is to get people to think differently.

Yes, but because the creators are partly synthetic, there won't exist that innate fear of a synthetic revolt that all organics seem to have.

There will still be a superiority complex. As Saren said it, "I am a hybrid of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither."

This would have the cyborgs still likely treating the synthetics creations as lesser beings.

I would agree with that, but superiority complex is better than irrational fear and attempted genocide wouldn't you say?

Actually it's just as bad. Superiority compelxes leads to segregation, slavery, ethnic cleansings. The same results from fear. The two both have the exact same potential for disaster so no, I do not agree.

Think things through. If more synthetics are created, you have the Geth around who would ensure if they gained consciousness, they would be free to choose their own path. Plus the galaxy has already learned from the Geth experience. Finally, the fear that led to rash decisions in the Morning War won't be there.

We repeat history all the time. Having it happen once doesn't mean we won't do it again. It takes the event happening several times before we actually learn from it. Another Morning War is still just as likely to happen again.

True, but it's worked well so far. No synthetic uprisings in 300 years.

[DJBare]

DJBare wrote...

It would help if people stop equating the choices as a reward for high EMS, they are not the bloody rewards!, the rewards for high EMS are things such as london not being destoyed or the earth being fried to a crisp.

The control and synthesis choice are presented by the catalyst because you are a threat with high EMS, every line spoken by the catalyst is to steer you clear of the destroy option in the hope you choose one of the other choices.

Again, the choices are NOT rewards for high EMS.

oops, double post.

[Taboo]

CavScout wrote...

What evidence do you have that the Catalyst can't be trusted? Why do you think it is lying? Other than not liking what it says that is.

It has nothig to do with ethics. The Catalyst didn't state an ethical reason for doing what it did. You're simplying appealing to emotion since you have no facts with which to counter.

There are a great many reason why people don't trust  him. Mostly because he does contradict himself. There are entire threads devoted to that.

If I were to meet a supposed supreme being that presented me with three possible solutions to world problems wouldn't you ask more questions? You cannot really ask the Star Child anything, nor can you ask for an explanation to WHY things have to be this way. I cannot take something like that at face value. He does not provide evidence for his claims. He simply says things are the way they are because he says so. The worst part? Shepard takes it at face value. He asks nothing. NOTHING. His last bits of dialouge are" I don't know."

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 22 avril 2012 - 03:47 .

[CavScout]

GlassElephant wrote...

CavScout wrote...
How was it presented as the "best" solution? The best solution, requiring the most EMS and have Shep live is not synthesis.

Starchild tells you that the peace won't last with destroy.  The only option that Starchild, this all-knowing AI, says peace can last is with synthesis.  You also need a higher EMS to unlock synthesis, the "new solution" that was unlocked with the most work on the Crucible.

The reason the reapers reap is because synthetics will always kill organics, and peace isn't possible to last.  Synthesis solves this problem, apparently.

The best solution from the Catalyst's point of view doesn't make it the best solution from the player's point of view, nor Sheps.

[KingZayd]

What's so important about having something organic in the galaxy?

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 03:50 .

[kalasaurus]

111987 wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

Starchild tells you that the peace won't last with destroy.  The only option that Starchild, this all-knowing AI, says peace can last is with synthesis.  You also need a higher EMS to unlock synthesis, the "new solution" that was unlocked with the most work on the Crucible.

The reason the reapers reap is because synthetics will always kill organics, and peace isn't possible to last.  Synthesis solves this problem, apparently.

You don't have to believe the Starchild.

I don't believe him, but only because the events in the game showed us that coexistence was possible.  I didn't really like the cynical approach the ending took after the idealistic cooperation Shepard pulled between the Quarians and Geth, and the discussions with EDI.  If this is what Bioware wanted, then I accept it but it still bothers me.

I just hope EC will give Shepard and Starchild the chance to discuss the dilemma and the conseqeunces of the three choices.

[InHarmsWay]

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

I still don't see how Synthesis solves anything as even the cyborg people can still create synthetics and these synthetics can still fight back.

I find the solution is to get people to think differently.

Yes, but because the creators are partly synthetic, there won't exist that innate fear of a synthetic revolt that all organics seem to have.

There will still be a superiority complex. As Saren said it, "I am a hybrid of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither."

This would have the cyborgs still likely treating the synthetics creations as lesser beings.

I would agree with that, but superiority complex is better than irrational fear and attempted genocide wouldn't you say?

Actually it's just as bad. Superiority compelxes leads to segregation, slavery, ethnic cleansings. The same results from fear. The two both have the exact same potential for disaster so no, I do not agree.

Think things through. If more synthetics are created, you have the Geth around who would ensure if they gained consciousness, they would be free to choose their own path. Plus the galaxy has already learned from the Geth experience. Finally, the fear that led to rash decisions in the Morning War won't be there.

We repeat history all the time. Having it happen once doesn't mean we won't do it again. It takes the event happening several times before we actually learn from it. Another Morning War is still just as likely to happen again.

True, but it's worked well so far. No synthetic uprisings in 300 years.

Due to extremely heavy restrictions in AI research and the geth's apathy towards organic afffairs. Though we've have to deal with several problem AIs throughout ME besides the geth. The gamble-bot 47, Hannibal, and Overlord.

[CavScout]

111987 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

We repeat history all the time. Having it happen once doesn't mean we won't do it again. It takes the event happening several times before we actually learn from it. Another Morning War is still just as likely to happen again.

True, but it's worked well so far. No synthetic uprisings in 300 years.

Luna mission and the AI computer behind the stop in ME1 says this really isn't true.

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

What's so important about having something organic in the galaxy?

Why do you presume them to not be?

Modifié par CavScout, 22 avril 2012 - 03:53 .

[DJBare]

GlassElephant wrote...
Starchild tells you that the peace won't last with destroy.  The only option that Starchild, this all-knowing AI, says peace can last is with synthesis.  You also need a higher EMS to unlock synthesis, the "new solution" that was unlocked with the most work on the Crucible.

The reason the reapers reap is because synthetics will always kill organics, and peace isn't possible to last.  Synthesis solves this problem, apparently.

This is where some folk are making the mistake, they are equating those choices as a reward for high EMS, it's not a reward, it's presented by the catalyst because you are a greater threat with high EMS.

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

What's so important about having something organic in the galaxy?

Why do you presume them to not be?

the galaxy was fine when all life was organic. why wouldn't it be fine if all life was synthetic?

[Super_Angurius]

About the removing differences, bringing peace aurguement. There are at least a few sci-fi stories out there where someone attempts to remove racism from skin color, or something similer. Normally they end up with the groups finding something else to hate each other over. You can't just say to everyone, "hey, your all the same now, be friends!" Because it won't work. Understanding is something that has to be worked at, it can't just be given.

[Ultra Prism]

You cannot force other people change their evolution of their lives ... yes it will fix all problems .. IDEALISTIC but in reality is never a possiblity ... for sure Crucible can do it by sucking up Shepard ... everyone talks about freewill in ME3 and what value it holds ... Shepard is basically deciding what biology people should be lol

[Taboo]

Super_Angurius wrote...

About the removing differences, bringing peace aurguement. There are at least a few sci-fi stories out there where someone attempts to remove racism from skin color, or something similer. Normally they end up with the groups finding something else to hate each other over. You can't just say to everyone, "hey, your all the same now, be friends!" Because it won't work. Understanding is something that has to be worked at, it can't just be given.

Right. It only takes one person to make a good situation bad. One person who controls many with bad logic will always cause problems. The problem is with the very nature of life itself.

[CavScout]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

What evidence do you have that the Catalyst can't be trusted? Why do you think it is lying? Other than not liking what it says that is.

It has nothig to do with ethics. The Catalyst didn't state an ethical reason for doing what it did. You're simplying appealing to emotion since you have no facts with which to counter.

There are a great many reason why people don't trust  him. Mostly because he does contradict himself. There are entire threads devoted to that.

If I were to meet a supposed supreme being that presented me with three possible solutions to world problems wouldn't you ask more questions? You cannot really ask the Star Child anything, nor can you ask for an explanation to WHY things have to be this way. I cannot take something like that at face value. He does not provide evidence for his claims. He simply says things are the way they are because he says so. The worst part? Shepard takes it at face value. He asks nothing. NOTHING. His last bits of dialouge are" I don't know."

People certainly don't like him but most people are so irrationally about it that they make crap up to support their irrationality. It is heavily evident in this thread where what was actually said is purposively misquote or so twisted out of context that it bear little resemblance to reality.

ME(1)(2)(3) are video games. You've never had the freedom to do, or ask, or question whatever and whomever you wanted. You always only had what the game allowed you to.

What would an Investigate option really add if all it did was loop back to the same three options? You'd still be here, bitter and posting.

You have no reason to suspect he is lying, nor does Shep.

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

What's so important about having something organic in the galaxy?

Why do you presume them to not be?

the galaxy was fine when all life was organic. why wouldn't it be fine if all life was synthetic?

You don't see the problem with Galactic wide genocide?

[kalasaurus]

DJBare wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...
Starchild tells you that the peace won't last with destroy.  The only option that Starchild, this all-knowing AI, says peace can last is with synthesis.  You also need a higher EMS to unlock synthesis, the "new solution" that was unlocked with the most work on the Crucible.

The reason the reapers reap is because synthetics will always kill organics, and peace isn't possible to last.  Synthesis solves this problem, apparently.

This is where some folk are making the mistake, they are equating those choices as a reward for high EMS, it's not a reward, it's presented by the catalyst because you are a greater threat with high EMS.

Perhaps.  Do you mean we are a greater threat to ourselves or to the catalyst/reapers?

[Tazzmission]

Shwiggliness wrote...

 So... I finished ME3 again. 

And came to that DREADED ending sequence. Shepard went into the elevator (with no gun :v) and I met Casper again.

While talking to Casper, Shepard says that the defining characteristic of Organic life is free will and the ability to make choices. He thinks forcing a life onto Organics would be bad, then.

DURRR OKAY LETS IGNORE WHAT I SAID AND TURN ALL ORGANICS INTO CYBORGS

What? How is this the best option?

-Citadel gets destroyed
-Shepard is turned into spacegoo
-Shepard gives the reapers exactly what they want
-Shepard turns on his own logic
-SHEPARD FORCES ALL ORGANIC LIFE INTO ONE PATH

Really? It's obvious BW intended this to be the "Best" golden ending, as it requires a ****ton of Assets to get, and it's the middle option, and the one the Catalyst advertises best. It's also the only ending where Earth can't get destroyed.


But... look at Control, for a minute, why don't we?
-Shepard dies
+Citadel Surivives
+Reapers go home
+Nothing is forced on anyone, except the Reapers... and well, they're dicks.


So, WHY is Synthesis considered a good ending? 

actually if you think back to what the catalyst states he says do you think you can controll us?

just because shepard may believe he or she can could only last for a bit and the catalyst never stated it officially stops the reapers forever


now synthesis is the best ending imo mainly because your creating a new dna structure between 2 things that already live side by side and what better way to stop a possible chaos ( geth becoming self aware and smart) is by merging them with humans into one enity?

thats really the only way to stop the reapers forever

destroying the reapers is bad mainly because the cycle can indeed start again when future children create synthetics

Modifié par Tazzmission, 22 avril 2012 - 04:02 .

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

What's so important about having something organic in the galaxy?

Why do you presume them to not be?

the galaxy was fine when all life was organic. why wouldn't it be fine if all life was synthetic?

You don't see the problem with Galactic wide genocide?

and what's to stop a synthetic-organic hybrid race from doing the same to all the others?

[Taboo]

The problem is is that everything else in the game was grounded in reasoning and was explicitly understood by the player. I have every reason to suspect he is lying. He does not support his claims. This is probably caused by oversight by the developers but it doesn't make the situation more palatable. The player should have the ability to ask and investigate simply because what he presents us with are enormous and will have huge ramifications. MY Shepard would have asked these questions because I would have as well. Wouldn't you?

My major problem with the ending isn't star child because I can forgive such oversights. What I cannot tolerate is the lack of inherent cohesion in storytelling.

[Tazzmission]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

What's so important about having something organic in the galaxy?

Why do you presume them to not be?

the galaxy was fine when all life was organic. why wouldn't it be fine if all life was synthetic?

You don't see the problem with Galactic wide genocide?

and what's to stop a synthetic-organic hybrid race from doing the same to all the others?

maybe the catalyst controlls them to his image?

[KingZayd]

Tazzmission wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

 So... I finished ME3 again. 

And came to that DREADED ending sequence. Shepard went into the elevator (with no gun :v) and I met Casper again.

While talking to Casper, Shepard says that the defining characteristic of Organic life is free will and the ability to make choices. He thinks forcing a life onto Organics would be bad, then.

DURRR OKAY LETS IGNORE WHAT I SAID AND TURN ALL ORGANICS INTO CYBORGS

What? How is this the best option?

-Citadel gets destroyed
-Shepard is turned into spacegoo
-Shepard gives the reapers exactly what they want
-Shepard turns on his own logic
-SHEPARD FORCES ALL ORGANIC LIFE INTO ONE PATH

Really? It's obvious BW intended this to be the "Best" golden ending, as it requires a ****ton of Assets to get, and it's the middle option, and the one the Catalyst advertises best. It's also the only ending where Earth can't get destroyed.


But... look at Control, for a minute, why don't we?
-Shepard dies
+Citadel Surivives
+Reapers go home
+Nothing is forced on anyone, except the Reapers... and well, they're dicks.


So, WHY is Synthesis considered a good ending? 

actually if you think back to what the catalyst states he says do you think you can controll us?

just because shepard may believe he or she can could only last for a bit and the catalyst never stated it officially stops the reapers forever


now synthesis is the best ending imo mainly because your creating a new dna structure between 2 things that already live side by side and what better way to stop a possible chaos ( geth becoming self aware and smart) is by merging them with humans into one enity?

thats really the only way to stop the reapers forever

destroying the reapers is bad mainly because the cycle can indeed start again when future children create synthetics

for synthesis, shepard asks "And there will be peace?" The Starchild pauses for a while and then says "The cycle will be broken"