156 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravennus]

jelf rs wrote...

Ravennus wrote...

jelf rs wrote...

samb wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Energy drain > Proxmityi Mine

Hunter Mode > Proximity Mine

Yes, proximity mine isn't bad in the slightest if used properly but most people find the other talents much more useful and prefer to max out those. Also, by being the best sniper I AM improving my team, so dumping proxmity mines isn't gimping my team.

That is your opinion, it's wrong but whatever.
Then how about 
Prox mine> fitness?
Being a good debuffer from range and being a good sniper are not mutally exclusive.  Is this what we are teaching people nowadays?

Proximity Mine shares CD with Energy Drain and to some extend the Tactical Cloak(especially when you chose sniper damage over extra power on GI) as well.

Use Proximity Mine = Energy Drain and Cloak on cool down

Choosing Fitness won't hinder any other powers.

Have a good day.

I could say the exact same thing about Energy Drain.  Does that make it useless?

Have a good day! 

What the OP said is that people can choose all three powers instead of only Energy Drain and Cloak. I don't think even the OP would dare to ask people to choose Energy Drain OVER Proximity Mine.

If you think Proximity Mine is better than Energy Drain, then you are definitely free to use it over Energy Drain as we all have our own preferences.

I hope more people can share your point of view though.

I know dude... I was being sarcastic. 

I don't think PM is better than ED.  Then again, I don't think ED is better than PM in certain circumstances.
I completely agree with the OP that taking all 3 powers and learning when to use them is ideal.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Darkslayer557 wrote...
Evidence and reasons? I do not and I top 90% of my charts. 

try going 0 in fitness and see how often you get incapped.
Even on random/random maps a competent infiltrator with 0 in fitness really shouldn't be dying more than once every 2-3 waves, unless it's the objective is one of those wtf annoying objectives.

Have you tried proximity mine yet? or played with anyone that actually uses proximity mine effectively yet?
The latter isn't really that common in pugs right now.

but yeah if you're going to base it on score, just try it yourself and check the difference in score.
Or play against someone else who's comfortable using proxy mine and see how well they fare in comparison.

[Ravennus]

Darkslayer557 wrote...

Ravennus wrote...

Darkslayer557 wrote...

samb wrote...

@Darkslayer557
I know what you are saying, and I am not contending that ED is a good ability. My point is you can have both. Anything that doesn't go down with cloak-ED sniper shot will go down with cloak-PM sniper shot. You alternate once the shields are down.
It's not one or the other, why squander a perfectly good power is my point.

OK what I'm saying is my widow X can one shot the health of any human sized enemy including phantoms, so the PM isn't needed for me once the shield goes down. sure it's more useful against boss targets but on gold the extra health can let me survive in emergency situations (reviving someone under fire).

My point was you can't really have both because the way recharging works in ME. In dragon age each ability has its own recharge timer so you can use multiple abilities in rapid succession. But in ME once you used one ability you have to wait until you can use ANY ability at all. That's the main reason why investing in two active ability in ME is not as good as focusing on one ability unless there's significant incentive (like the warp + throw). And in ME ideally you always want to use your active ability once the recharge is done, so there's not a lot of incentive to go ability1->ability2->ability1->ability2 than ability1->ability1->ability1->ability1. If ME3 works like ME1 or dragon age where each ability has its own timer then i'll certainlly evolve PM, I just go cloak->PM->ED->mouse left.

It depends actually.... on my Salarian Infiltrator I can cloak, fire ED and then fire PM all within the cloak CD (if my weight is low enough).  Not that I do that, but I'm just proving that cooldowns can be manipulated (especially with cloak).

Versatility is also paramount.  ED will not be the most ideal power in every situation.  Yes, it's great. There is no disputing that.
However, it doesn't do much vs. organic targets who have no shields other than a minor stagger.
You also likely specced for damage over radius, so it'll likely only hit your main target.

Yes, for single target sniper takedowns, especially vs. shielded opponents it's perfect.
However, there are also a lot of situations where it helps to have a power which will do great damage to a 3m area as well as throw a +20% dmg debuff on them (that is shared by the entire team).  Not to mention, you can stagger and slow down an tightly packed group that's approaching.

Also, just because PM shares the global cooldown, doesn't mean you can't toss it at a known chokepoint before you get down to business (like between waves).
If you listen for it going off, you'll get early warning when the enemies are flanking from another direction or it'll one shot those husks that are running up on you while you are scoped in for all the sniper kills.


If you don't want to at least give it a try and consider it a complete waste for your particular playstyle, fine.... but many people have given very valid reasons why PM is useful, especially on an Infiltrator.  We are trying to educate people on a useful ability that most people simply dismiss out of hand or get rediculed for using.  This is wrong.
Just because you don't use it doesn't mean that it's completely pointless and we're all stupid.

Sorry if I make you guys feel like I'm all egocentric and I talk as if i'm the god of games.

I'm glad we're having this discussion here peacefully as opposed to the battlefield 3 forums. Seriously those people are HORRIBLE.

Anyway I did use it in the beta extensively but I found the best SI build for myself in the beta. Is anything changed for the PM after launch? I remember its ballistic trajectory is hard to predict and it doesn't always explode even if the mine is like 2 feet away from an enemy. It does stagger, yes, but so does ED. Maybe on my next promotion I'll give it a shot:huh:

Oh, and something I found helpful regarding triggering proximity mine...
The 3m radius upgrade also seems to upgrade the range it takes to set the mine off.  After experimenting with both the +damage and the +radius, I found the 3m radius to be much more useful.

[Darkslayer557]

OniGanon wrote...

Every SI sniper should be taking PM. Every Cloak grants a free ability cast. What do you do against Armor? Cast Energy Drain and do no damage while simultaneously irritating all your biotic teammates?

6/6/6/5/3 or 6/5/6/6/3

Spec PM for radius, defense debuff, damage

I mean really, what else are you doing with those points? Going for max Fitness? On a sniper Infiltrator? What on earth for? You have Cloak and ED already.

Even when using a Shotgun, you could go with 4/6/6/6/4.


Geth Infiltrator is a little more complicated because of their low health and shielding (with Hunter Mode activated), but even then I'm inclined to go with 6/4/6/6/4 or 6/3/6/6/5 just to have something to cast in Cloak (4/5/6/5/6 or 4/6/6/4/6 for shotgunner).

Recall those situations where you had a silver of health and survived? Imagine what would happen if you didn't take the extra health. You could have very well died and the person who tries to save you gets mowed down and in turn the whole team die. People don't notice the usefulness of fitness because it's not an active ability. Fitness is not receiving enough credit because when people takes down something using a gun they think "hey, this gun is great!" when people take down something using an active power they think "wow, this ability rocks!" but when people survives under enemy fire they won't go "holy crap fitness is boss". But that doesn't mean fitness is useless.

[Dr Derp]

I swear Proxy Mine is OP's baby or something... If you insult it the slightest big he'll rip your head off- through posts

[Darkslayer557]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Darkslayer557 wrote...
Evidence and reasons? I do not and I top 90% of my charts. 

try going 0 in fitness and see how often you get incapped.
Even on random/random maps a competent infiltrator with 0 in fitness really shouldn't be dying more than once every 2-3 waves, unless it's the objective is one of those wtf annoying objectives.

Have you tried proximity mine yet? or played with anyone that actually uses proximity mine effectively yet?
The latter isn't really that common in pugs right now.

but yeah if you're going to base it on score, just try it yourself and check the difference in score.
Or play against someone else who's comfortable using proxy mine and see how well they fare in comparison.

My point exactly i always go 6 in fitness.
Most PM SI's I played with throws 1 or 2 PM in the beginning of the match, then go for infinite ED spam.
I mean what's the point of investing points in PM if you're just gonna throw one in the beginning of the match?
And the difference PM can make is negligible on gold players. It always depend on the skill of the player.
Play with me if you think you can beat my non-PM SI. My origin ID is Darkslayer557.

Modifié par Darkslayer557, 22 avril 2012 - 06:29 .

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Ravennus wrote...

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

Ravennus wrote...

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

proximity mine will never beat skilled sniper in cloak

To be honest... a lot of classes and builds can beat a skilled sniper in cloak on higher difficulties.

Not that I have an issue with having a good one in my team in Gold, but on higher difficulties it's about taking out large groups and crowd control.
A good sniper, as long as they are aware of Shield Gate and plan for it, is definitely a good player to have so long as they focus the really hard targets or annoying targets (Ravagers).... but really, they don't often top the charts in a well built Gold team.  They become more support... great support if played well, but support none the less.

Especially with Widows, Javelins, etc..... even if you are a perfect shot EVERY time, you are either only 1-shotting a single mook every 3ish seconds (which is a waste of your abilties) or helping to knock down the harder targets.

VS. Biotic explosions, tech explosions, and good AoE based classes you will not be getting top score, nor should you.

It's a team game, and there's nothing worse in Gold than a lone wolf sniper who thinks he can flip the bird to his teammates and solo the whole mission by himself.
A single good sniper can still bring a lot to the team, so long as they throw their 'sniper ego' out the window.

I agree with you that lonewolf players or snipers are runining the round. But sometimes it's the only option when entire team dies off or doesnt go to kill VIP, the same for objectives. Well  some people don't know sniper's role is support from a distance. Sometimes you need to adapt and go on the offensive otherwise some random team can go down pretty fast, you know it's true. From my experience I know that proximity mine isnt as useful on infi as it is on turian soldier, at least for me.  With tactical cloak maxed for dmg and sniper damage you can obliterate everything, except phatoms in ccq, unless you know how to quick scope.  Black widow with the reload trick works decently. Reload animation takes 3-4 seconds when you cancel it it can take 1,5 or 2 seconds. Thats better than nothing.
For example I perform way better without proximity mine when I have black widow with cloak and reload trick Headshotting 95% of the time just require practice, panicked shots like omg he escaped need to kill him will never work. Most of the time randoms on gold never teamwork, so few uses tech or biotic explosions.I've seen 2 asari adepts "fight" by spamming warp on atlas, they just wanted the bigger share of points for killing him. They didnt care that the phantom sneaked up from behind and instakilled them :PI believe you're gold regular so I think you know what I mean. 
e.g. Even Salarian Infiltrator at level 8 can end up soloing 10th gold wave against phantoms and survive (that was stressfull anyway). Still it was nice to hear people saying over the mic sorry for trying to kick you.  Just dont get me wrong by thinking that I talk a lot how good I am. I'm the first one to admit that I'm not good at anything because nobody is perfect. I just shared some situations that I've experienced as an example.

Heh, I agree... most PUGs are a nightmare on Gold for the exact reasons your described.
In that situation I have no doubt that a well played SI Sniper infiltrator will shine!  I've done it myself!

But after a while, I found it more frustrating than fun.... and by that time I had built up a substantial friends list of like-minded players and now we streamroll gold matches.  Random/Random too, just to mix things up.
I'd also much rather clear Gold in 20 minutes than 40 minutes (and no, not talking about FBW/Geth, lol)

Not tooting my own horn here.... I'm not the 'best' player in our group by any means, but we all work well together as a team and it goes a long way.  It's something missing from the majority of random Gold matches, and I find them almost to painful to play now.

I'll still do it if no one else is on, if I want a personal challenge.... but most of the time I'll bring my infiltrator (any build.... sniper, shotgun, Geth melee) as I find it contributes the most to a group that isn't used to working well together.

Maybe we should team up? I'm tired of randoms. Lost all rockets and medigels because of them 

[Grimy Bunyip]

@dark

the trajectory is literally laser accurate,its just off center.
imagine your gun had a laser pointer. it would follow the laser pointer exactly.
see the picture on page 1 for reference.

the stagger is a bit different from ED.
PM will blow the shield on guardians far back.
ED will just jiggle it a bit.
ED on unshielded targets will stun targets and cause them to spasm.

pm stagger in general seems to last longer though.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Darkslayer557 wrote...

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

Ravennus wrote...

jelf rs wrote...

samb wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Energy drain > Proxmityi Mine

Hunter Mode > Proximity Mine

Yes, proximity mine isn't bad in the slightest if used properly but most people find the other talents much more useful and prefer to max out those. Also, by being the best sniper I AM improving my team, so dumping proxmity mines isn't gimping my team.

That is your opinion, it's wrong but whatever.
Then how about 
Prox mine> fitness?
Being a good debuffer from range and being a good sniper are not mutally exclusive.  Is this what we are teaching people nowadays?

Proximity Mine shares CD with Energy Drain and to some extend the Tactical Cloak(especially when you chose sniper damage over extra power on GI) as well.

Use Proximity Mine = Energy Drain and Cloak on cool down

Choosing Fitness won't hinder any other powers.

Have a good day.

I could say the exact same thing about Energy Drain.  Does that make it useless?

Have a good day! 

Well it definetly disrupts way more powerful biotic explosions. An another example from my game experience.
I set up properly, warp on atlas im about to use throw  on it and guess what happens. Some nooby guy kept spaming energy drain after warp totally distrupting explosions. He did the same on geth prime, there were 3 of them coming and I'd take them out easily with detonations but nooo he had to spam AoE energy drains totally disrupting the combo.  People should really think what they're doing.

You should really read some threads :

http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648

Just use throw again. You'll have your explosion.

Well I did use it, after his drain first throw didnt work so second later i used another one. There was no biotic explosion at all. Oh well, maybe it was sudden lag or something *silently disables torrent client downloading  some xxx videos* :whistle:

[Darkslayer557]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

@dark

the trajectory is literally laser accurate,its just off center.
imagine your gun had a laser pointer. it would follow the laser pointer exactly.
see the picture on page 1 for reference.

the stagger is a bit different from ED.
PM will blow the shield on guardians far back.
ED will just jiggle it a bit.
ED on unshielded targets will stun targets and cause them to spasm.

pm stagger in general seems to last longer though.

Yea I know but if I wanna kill a marauder in 0.5 seconds I don't wannt measure and think, that takes energy and time.
For guardians my widow X with penetration mod shoots through their shield so I don't really care about the ability of blowing the shield away. Just loosely aim for the head, not necessarily through the peep hole and I can one shot them.

[Curzyfish]

What's stopping you from ED'ing that maurader, and then dropping a prox mine 3 seconds later at the feet of those 2 husks and cannibals charging around the corner?

[Darkslayer557]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Darkslayer557 wrote...

after I go into cloak i can either fire a proxy mine or an energy drain. The choice is obvious here since I'm a sniper. With 1-3-mouse left i can one shot any human sized enemy. And I do it every time i go into cloak so there's absolutely no need for me to evolve proxy mine. Sure it's good, but if you can only choose one between good and excellent, i choose excellent.

it's really not that hard to hit a human sized target with proxy mine when you get used to it.

+20% damage is great against every boss.
You can knock stuff out of cover with it.
You can 1hko husks instead of wasting bullets on them.
It won't **** up biotic explosions from your teammates.
you can detonate other people's energy drains into tech bursts with it.
If you're specced properly, you can detonate YOUR OWN energy drains into tech bursts, and turn yourself into a mini-asari adept ever since bioware buffed the base damage of tech bursts to be equal to biotic explosions.
You can knock guardian shields back with it.
If specced properly, you can flat out 1hko a guardian with it.
you can 1hko unshielded phantoms (unless they dodge, they take half damage when they carwheel) and nemesis with it.
Unlike auto tracking abilities like throw/warp, enemies can't dodge it very easily.
You can knock things out of cover with it

i think people really underestimate just how much damage it does.
Other than ballistic blades, it's the single strongest non-grenade ability in the game. AND it debuffs.

Maybe I didn't need PM because I have a widow X with penetration and barrel, I can kill a guardian and unshielded phantom without the debuffs anyway.

[Darkslayer557]

Curzyfish wrote...

What's stopping you from ED'ing that maurader, and then dropping a prox mine 3 seconds later at the feet of those 2 husks and cannibals charging around the corner?

What stops me from doing that is that I can kill a full health marauder by pressing 1, 3 and mouse left in rapid succession under 0.5 seconds, instead of having to wait for 3 seconds of recharge, potentially being shot at by that marauder.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Darkslayer557 wrote...
Yea I know but if I wanna kill a marauder in 0.5 seconds I don't wannt measure and think, that takes energy and time.
For guardians my widow X with penetration mod shoots through their shield so I don't really care about the ability of blowing the shield away. Just loosely aim for the head, not necessarily through the peep hole and I can one shot them.

I'm personally in the habit of aiming a bit up and to the right of where I want targets to go by now.
Heck you could probably write a hotkey script to do it for you pretty easily although that'd probably be cheating.
it's not bad at any rate.

I don't always use my black widow.
if I'm sporting a carnifex, proxy mine is very important
if i see a mob of 3 troopers, I'm not going to ED them, I'm going to proxy mine them and finish them off with 1 carnifex body shot a piece.

also important if you're trying to kill a guardian from the low ground with a scorpion, another weapon i like to use.
Normally you can shoot under a guardian's feet and wipe them, but sometimes you can't do that, like when ur on low ground.

*shrug*
proximity mine requires special circumstances, but once you learn them all, you'll really be using proximity mine about half the time.

[Curzyfish]

=\\ I dont think you understood what i meant there. You still do that to the marauder. Then you drop a PM at a group of cannibals / husks 3 seconds later.

[Viquey]

Darkslayer557 wrote...

ED doesn't interrupt biotic combos. The biotic just need to be smart enough to use throw a second time to detonate his explosion.
http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648
So don't get mad next time you throw at a warped target and it seemed like nothing happened. In fact a tech burst
was triggered and you can use throw again to detonate your warp.

And extra health does matter. Recall those times you have a silver of health and survived? Imagine what would happen if you didn't take that extra 15% of health you could go down and your teammate who tries to revive you goes down and in turn the whole team goes down. It's just not an active ability so people don't normally pay attention to the usefulness as much to the active abilities.

I'm not getting mad.  I rarely play adepts, but I often play tech classes alongside them, and I make sure to time my OL/ED so we get warp (tech burst) > throw (biotic explosion). I only mentioned that because there's lots of complaining about it, and with PM you don't even have to think about it. AND the adept will be doing more damage. Win-win.

As I said, it does make a difference. It's just too minute of one to be worth dropping PM for, imo. Still have cloak and general situational awareness.

[Darkslayer557]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Darkslayer557 wrote...
Yea I know but if I wanna kill a marauder in 0.5 seconds I don't wannt measure and think, that takes energy and time.
For guardians my widow X with penetration mod shoots through their shield so I don't really care about the ability of blowing the shield away. Just loosely aim for the head, not necessarily through the peep hole and I can one shot them.

I'm personally in the habit of aiming a bit up and to the right of where I want targets to go by now.
Heck you could probably write a hotkey script to do it for you pretty easily although that'd probably be cheating.
it's not bad at any rate.

I don't always use my black widow.
if I'm sporting a carnifex, proxy mine is very important
if i see a mob of 3 troopers, I'm not going to ED them, I'm going to proxy mine them and finish them off with 1 carnifex body shot a piece.

also important if you're trying to kill a guardian from the low ground with a scorpion, another weapon i like to use.
Normally you can shoot under a guardian's feet and wipe them, but sometimes you can't do that, like when ur on low ground.

*shrug*
proximity mine requires special circumstances, but once you learn them all, you'll really be using proximity mine about half the time.

Ohhhh kay now i see you're not a widow user.. yeah that factors into the build a lot and i can see why PM is necessary for non-widow SI builds. AWESOME!

[Grimy Bunyip]

Viquey wrote...

Darkslayer557 wrote...

ED doesn't interrupt biotic combos. The biotic just need to be smart enough to use throw a second time to detonate his explosion.
http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648
So don't get mad next time you throw at a warped target and it seemed like nothing happened. In fact a tech burst
was triggered and you can use throw again to detonate your warp.

And extra health does matter. Recall those times you have a silver of health and survived? Imagine what would happen if you didn't take that extra 15% of health you could go down and your teammate who tries to revive you goes down and in turn the whole team goes down. It's just not an active ability so people don't normally pay attention to the usefulness as much to the active abilities.

I'm not getting mad.  I rarely play adepts, but I often play tech classes alongside them, and I make sure to time my OL/ED so we get warp (tech burst) > throw (biotic explosion). I only mentioned that because there's lots of complaining about it, and with PM you don't even have to think about it. AND the adept will be doing more damage. Win-win.

As I said, it does make a difference. It's just too minute of one to be worth dropping PM for, imo. Still have cloak and general situational awareness.

any mob that requires a biotic detonation AND a tech burst is better off being proxy mined anyways

[Grimy Bunyip]

Darkslayer557 wrote...
Ohhhh kay now i see you're not a widow user.. yeah that factors into the build a lot and i can see why PM is necessary for non-widow SI builds. AWESOME!

I am a widow user, i carry 2 guns on my infiltrators

[Darkslayer557]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Darkslayer557 wrote...
Ohhhh kay now i see you're not a widow user.. yeah that factors into the build a lot and i can see why PM is necessary for non-widow SI builds. AWESOME!

I am a widow user, i carry 2 guns on my infiltrators

The M98 widow, not  the black widow? then I dunno why you need PM to blow back guardian's shield, or the debuff to one shot an unshielded phantom.
And if you carry 2 weapons, unless that second weapon is a geth SMG with ultra light material, your build isn't optimal.

Modifié par Darkslayer557, 22 avril 2012 - 06:49 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

the black widow. it 1 shots phantoms without debuff too.
when I said 1 shot unshielded phantoms tho, I meant the mine alone kills them.
I didnt mean the 20% debuff made the difference between 1 shotting or not.
the trick is the tech burst triggered. you need to hit the phantom with the mine right after the last of its shieds got stripped by an ED or overload or something.

its faster to proxy mine a guardian than to switch weapons, but yeah il just headshot if im carrying my bw.

ill still fire a proxy mine first tho. ed isnt gonna do me any good on a guardian.

[Viquey]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

any mob that requires a biotic detonation AND a tech burst is better off being proxy mined anyways

Hear, hear! I most often end up in this situation with my Gethgineer, though. Don't wanna stop my chain overload spam, so just time it instead. Otherwise I toss a mine every cloak cycle. Atlases just melt. 

Frankly, unless I'm fighting geth... I think I use PM waay more than ED. More versatile, more beneficial. ED for shields (mine or theirs), but otherwise, PM all day erryday. Even just its ability to make enemies roll is handy. Cerbies have that predictable ending bit where they're just begging for a headshot~

Only thing I can say I dislike about PM is its tendancy to snap to things if they fly too close to it. Like on dagger, if you're taking cover at the top of the two ramps by the spawn point/darkside lz and try to shoot a mine to the bottom of the ramp while leaning out of cover... you'll see it fly through your scope, but when you zoom out its actually just stuck on the edge of your cover. D:

But... that's nitpicking really.

[CoddyXD]

I find it annoying that you drop them pre emptively in a choke point and they don't go off.

Seriously they must have an internal prox device battery bought 20 for a dollar on the cheap that only lasts 1sec before becoming useless.

[Omega-202]

I tried Proximity Mine on both of my Infiltrators and have since dropped it on both.

It worked wonders on my SI when he was a MantisX/EvisceratorX hybrid build. He would use PM from stealth (with the Cloak bonus power evolution) to take out mooks without breaking stealth. Just walk past, drop it at their feet and walk away. It worked really well. But then I changed the build because I felt that I may have been too squishy on Silver and Gold.

He got switched to a Valiant build with full Fitness and I found I did A LOT better. The added Fitness let me run and gun better and worked really well with Energy Drain, letting me restore more shields with each Drain.

A similar situation happened with my GI. I thought I would have him replace my SI as the Proxy "drive-by" close range assassin. I tried it out. It didn't feel right. I swapped to a 6-6-0-6-6 build and I literally haven't died since and its been 6 Silver and 1 Gold match with him since I swapped. Big tough enemies go down just as fast and I'm worried less about dying.

[scrappydoo]

I use proxi mines all the time. People who say they are useless or no good on gold don't know how to use them. They are amazing.

How many other powers do 800+ points of damage every 3 seconds (and stagger the enemy too)? Well?