317 réponses à ce sujet

[Coralie]

I thought it was cheap, gross, and alienating. (I'm including my reaction to the cameltoe - I don't really think I can divorce that from my feelings on EDI's body arc).

Essentially I think EDI got cheated. She had a really interesting potential storyline, where she was granted this gift of life and freedom and unfettered sentience and the capability to do literally anything she wanted with it. She was, after all, basically the brains of one of the most advanced starships in the galaxy (save the Reapers). We could have had some really interesting material about humanity and personhood and overcoming basic "programming" (literal or metaphorical) to be something "better" and what that means for humanity and what that means for artificial intelligence influenced by humanity.

(And then later we find out that she started out as that targeting VI on Luna way back in ME1? That her initial moment of sentience was when she was actually UNDER FIRE? And then we - literally we, Shepard! - went and PERSONALLY BLEW HER TO BITS? Holy cow, I would have LOVED a conversation between Shepard and EDI about that and her evolution from the events of 1 - 3.)

Instead, they literally made her a sexbot, and centered her increasingly-awkward arc around her quasi-sexual attachment to Joker, rather than her confusion at being attached to humans at all, or spending more time exploring why exactly she sympathizes more with humanity than the other artificial life in the galaxy. It feels like a giant opportunity missed in favor of tossing in some more othering fan service.

[tractrpl]

Well, she's oversexualized. I felt that way about Miranda, but EDI was over the top unnecessary, or was it? I suppose being sexy might sound smart as an infiltration robot, but actually spies IRL that are sexy aren't usually very successful. Being noticed is not very good for spies.

Anyway, people say sheploo is over-sexed too, but as a dude I never felt that way. I did feel like Jacob was an attempt to over-sex a dude for the benefit of the ladies. It did annoy me, but not him. After all, Jacob's not responsible for those camera angles, BW is.

[fluffywalrus]

Not big on the camel-toe, but IMO she reminded me of the lead character in No One Lives Forever, design-wise...kind of. So that made it easier. I wasn't offended or put off, I just thought it was a bit much.
Not a big deal, because Vega was much the same way.

[Rane7685]

whalewhisker wrote...

I thought the cameltoe was really gross. But I never noticed it on my own until it was brought up. You can only really see it in her white costume...but anyways that's irrelevant. Of course she is going to be overly sexualized! This is a video game we're talking about for Christ's sake!

Yes I know its hypersexualised. I want to know if you find it disconcerting/alienating because in EDIs case I dont because her appearance is ancilliary. Her personality remains the same and unsexualised. This is in ccontrast to other characters in gaming whose appearance, personality and camera angles are designed so transparently for titilation and while it doesnt bother me  hugely (as a straight male) I can very much appreciate female gamers being offput by these depictions of women

[gr7dking]

"I'm gay, therefore I am.." 
I have no idea why I was so tempted to say that. 

Heh.

Rane7685 wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Why should I pretend the ****** never happened if you're asking my opinion of EDI's appearance? The ******, and the creepiness of a computer program's sexualization, is what we're discussing here. It's like saying we can't mention the ending while reviewing ME3.

The reason I wanted to avoid this I because the answer is (i would argue) axiomatic. Its gross and I have a hard time believing that anyone thought it was a good idea I think it was an oversight that occurred in the design similar to a bug. The ****** leads to a termination of productive discussion and this thread will derail fast. I am really interested in how female gamers felt re EDI getting a body an what it looks like assuming the ****** didnt happen because that is so obviously offensive

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Perhaps what you mean to say is, everyone will fixate on it because it is the most evident symptom of EDI's poor characterization as some weird, virgin robot. Dislike!

Do I think it was accidental? That is no longer important in developing our interpretation of EDI. The most important thing to note is that she has a HUGE cameltoe, and that this is a design decision which should receive due attention in the production of future games.

[gr7dking]

Rane7685 wrote...

whalewhisker wrote...

I thought the cameltoe was really gross. But I never noticed it on my own until it was brought up. You can only really see it in her white costume...but anyways that's irrelevant. Of course she is going to be overly sexualized! This is a video game we're talking about for Christ's sake!

Yes I know its hypersexualised. I want to know if you find it disconcerting/alienating because in EDIs case I dont because her appearance is ancilliary. Her personality remains the same and unsexualised. This is in ccontrast to other characters in gaming whose appearance, personality and camera angles are designed so transparently for titilation and while it doesnt bother me  hugely (as a straight male) I can very much appreciate female gamers being offput by these depictions of women

But her appearance is not ancillary; your asking this question proves that point. Moreover, as Coralie stated here, the body turns her into a sexbot; gone is the characterization from the previous two games, tossed away are the story leads that could make her a full fledged character. Instead, we focus on her body and her discovery of...sexuality? aslkjd.

Modifié par gr7dking, 22 avril 2012 - 06:41 .

[syllogi]

gr7dking wrote...

syllogi, you say you're over anything ME...but at least they're trying Even if they do create lame portrayals of EDI, or they make the one obviously gay character be about almost nothing else except being gay, they do have a few brilliant moments, like giving FemShep the exact same respect and privilege BroShep gets. They also never (or almost never) make FemShep's character about her sexuality, which was SO LIBERATING! Thank god.

So, I will continue giving BioWare my money, but I'll also keep hammering them for representations like EDI.

I am not boycotting Bioware, and I'm definitely following the development of the next Dragon Age game, which I highly doubt will have the same kind of disregard for female players.

My issues with the Mass Effect series that cause me to not finish the game and stay far away from MP are mostly related to the lack of roleplaying, addition of massive chunks of autodialogue, and the face import bug.  It all added up to not feeling like Shepard was my character anymore, and I just didn't care enough to see what happened next.

As for saying "at least Bioware is giving FemShep respect", I would argue that "forgetting" to complete the Thane and Jacob romances shows a lack of care for the female version of Shepard, as well as not giving straight female Shepards a new romance option in ME3.  If you don't mind this stuff, good for you, but it all adds up for me to apathy.  They really couldn't be bothered to care about FemShep, other than the marketing deal, which was nice, but nice gift wrapping doesn't make an empty box a better gift.

[Rane7685]

Coralie wrote...
Instead, they literally made her a sexbot, and centered her increasingly-awkward arc around her quasi-sexual attachment to Joker, rather than her confusion at being attached to humans at all, or spending more time exploring why exactly she sympathizes more with humanity than the other artificial life in the galaxy. It feels like a giant opportunity missed in favor of tossing in some more othering fan service.

Although I disagree with the characterisation of her as a sexbot (to me thats more about the programmed personality) I absolutely love where you think they could have taken it. I didnt even consider some of these issues. I wouldve loved these issues to be explored more. I loved th joker/edi romance but edis personality could have been extended so much further 

[Phydeaux314]

Hmm.

I'll throw out that it wasn't her cameltoe (that term still makes me giggle, btw) that bothered me most - it was the bloody built in heels. I don't spend a lot of time staring at the crotch of game characters, and didn't even notice until someone on the forum pointed it out.

Heels, though. Have you ever tried to seriously move in heels? They're... not exactly suited to combat. Or moving quickly.

[Rane7685]

gr7dking wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

whalewhisker wrote...

I thought the cameltoe was really gross. But I never noticed it on my own until it was brought up. You can only really see it in her white costume...but anyways that's irrelevant. Of course she is going to be overly sexualized! This is a video game we're talking about for Christ's sake!

Yes I know its hypersexualised. I want to know if you find it disconcerting/alienating because in EDIs case I dont because her appearance is ancilliary. Her personality remains the same and unsexualised. This is in ccontrast to other characters in gaming whose appearance, personality and camera angles are designed so transparently for titilation and while it doesnt bother me  hugely (as a straight male) I can very much appreciate female gamers being offput by these depictions of women

But her appearance is not ancillary; your asking this question proves that point. Moreover, as Coralie stated here, the body turns her into a sexbot; gone is the characterization from the previous two games, tossed away are the story leads that could make her a full fledged character. Instead, we focus on her body and her discovery of...sexuality? aslkjd.

That really only applies if you believe personality and appearance are intrinsically linked. I didnt notice any real change in  her personality and hence I didnt see her as a sexbot, I saw her as more of a naieve entity strugglin to understand emotional concepts that were thrown  at her now that she had acquired a body tat people reacted to

[AxisEvolve]

Rane7685 wrote...
 Its gross 

Rane7685 wrote...
Im straight 

Pick one. 

[Coralie]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

Heels, though. Have you ever tried to seriously move in heels? They're... not exactly suited to combat. Or moving quickly.

This bugged me a lot in ME2, with Miranda's heels (and her, ah, form-fitting jumpsuit, and how the camera couldn't stay away from her butt).

...also Samara's huge heels (and her deep-V necked form-fitting jumpsuit, and how the camera couldn't stay away from her chest).

=/

Modifié par Coralie, 22 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[Rane7685]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

Hmm.

I'll throw out that it wasn't her cameltoe (that term still makes me giggle, btw) that bothered me most - it was the bloody built in heels. I don't spend a lot of time staring at the crotch of game characters, and didn't even notice until someone on the forum pointed it out.

Heels, though. Have you ever tried to seriously move in heels? They're... not exactly suited to combat. Or moving quickly.

Catwoman in AC can actually bolt along the ground and scale entire buildings and your telliing me you struggle to move in them. Sheesh an you call yourself a woman lol (btw this is sarcasm I completely agree with  you)

[gr7dking]

Rane7685 wrote...

That really only applies if you believe personality and appearance are intrinsically linked. I didnt notice any real change in her personality and hence I didnt see her as a sexbot, I saw her as more of a naieve entity strugglin to understand emotional concepts that were thrown at her now that she had acquired a body tat people reacted to

For me, it's precisely her naiveté that's the problem, and the way that Joker/Shepard get to take advantage of that, at the cost of sacrificing all of the story leads that Coralie has so excellently pointed out. Her naiveté is what turns her into sexbot it just feels so weird.

I'm not defending heels in lieu of combat boots, but I will say that it's FAR easier to run in heels than it is to walk in them, at least for me

Modifié par gr7dking, 22 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[Coralie]

gr7dking wrote...

For me, it's precisely her naiveté that's the problem, and the way that Joker/Shepard get to take advantage of that, at the cost of sacrificing all of the story leads that Coralie has so excellently pointed out. Her naiveté is what turns her into sexbot it just feels so weird.

I actually spent a lot of time in ME3 wondering what the consequences of unleashing EDI were going to be. When she told me she had uncomfortable questions for me I had this amazing, wonderful feeling of sickening dread - I was sure that if I answered wrong, EDI was going to defect to the Reapers.

lol nope she just wanted dating advice

I'm not defending heels in lieu of combat boots, but I will say that it's FAR easier to run in heels than it is to walk in them, at least for me

For the same reason it's easier to walk quickly on a pitching boat deck, or ride a bike at a faster pace than a very slow one. Momentum is everything Heels keep you on your toes, which is great for quick movement - it's why dancers (ie ballroom, tango etc) wear them - but that's only so long as you're on totally level ground. As soon as you get to uneven surfaces someone's gonna break an ankle.

[Rane7685]

gr7dking wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

That really only applies if you believe personality and appearance are intrinsically linked. I didnt notice any real change in her personality and hence I didnt see her as a sexbot, I saw her as more of a naieve entity strugglin to understand emotional concepts that were thrown at her now that she had acquired a body tat people reacted to

For me, it's precisely her naiveté that's the problem, and the way that Joker/Shepard get to take advantage of that, at the cost of sacrificing all of the story leads that Coralie has so excellently pointed out. Her naiveté is what turns her into sexbot it just feels so weird.

I'm not defending heels in lieu of combat boots, but I will say that it's FAR easier to run in heels than it is to walk in them, at least for me

I agree Coralies story leads are a great idea but I also thought her naivete suited her. It waas comparable to Legion's in the sense that synthetics are used to dealing essentially in absolutes and reason. Irrational emotions are very alien to them especially one so erratic as love. I didnt really think my Shepard took advantage of her. In fact I told her I wasnt the best person to ask and she said she would bare that in mind but wanted my input for context/ to inform her decisions. That seems better than making decisions in a vacumn so I  was keen to acquiese to this request. I made a point of saying she needs to decide for herself though 

[Rane7685]

Coralie wrote...


I actually spent a lot of time in ME3 wondering what the consequences of unleashing EDI were going to be. When she told me she had uncomfortable questions for me I had this amazing, wonderful feeling of sickening dread - I was sure that if I answered wrong, EDI was going to defect to the Reapers.

lol nope she just wanted dating advice

If you have a save game go back and kill the geth EDI chastises you and makes some comments re synthetics  and organics. It wont be enough to satisfy you but something might be better than nothing. Also defecting to the reapers is too big of a consequence for Bioware, Ive only ever seen BW do betrayal once unless you count romanced Jacob (Bastilla but she would come back around so meh). There are certain things BW wont do e.g. retconning rachni. It shouldve been if you killed them you never fought rvagers but you lost te rachni as a war asset but i digress

[Argetfalcon]

no one wants to see fat, ugly women and no one wants to see fat, ugly men. That's how it is

[Coralie]

Rane7685 wrote...

If you have a save game go back and kill the geth EDI chastises you and makes some comments re synthetics  and organics. It wont be enough to satisfy you but something might be better than nothing. Also defecting to the reapers is too big of a consequence for Bioware, Ive only ever seen BW do betrayal once unless you count romanced Jacob (Bastilla but she would come back around so meh). There are certain things BW wont do e.g. retconning rachni. It shouldve been if you killed them you never fought rvagers but you lost te rachni as a war asset but i digress

Ooh, I didn't know that. I'll give it a shot next time I go through.

I agree about the rachni

[QwertyMusicMan]

As a straight guy, I hated the hyper-sexual nature of practically all of the female characters in Mass Effect 2/3. Miranda, Jack, Liara, Ashley (ME3), EDI - you name it, they all have gigantic boobs and/or cleavage and a skintight suit outlining their ass (except Liara/Ashley). Hell, you can even see Jack's nipples and Miranda/EDI's vagina. That's just stupid, real people don't dress like that, and it really takes me out of the game. To move on as an industry, we need to stop BS like that.

And don't even try to argue that Sheploo's or Vega's pecs are large. It's not the same thing, at all.

[quickitsbob]

jules_vern18 wrote...

I was posting about this earlier and was also wondering how Liara got upgraded from a B cup in ME1 to a D cup in ME3. Only 2.5 years pass between the two, and she was no teenager (108-109) during that time frame.

.

You could say that being around shepard has a "Mass Effect"  

[Anezay]

She was better when her body was the Normandy, in my opinion.

[Daennikus]

AxisEvolve wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...
 Its gross 

Rane7685 wrote...
Im straight 

Pick one. 

You can be straight and not be attracted to obvious depictions of genitalia in situations that don't call for them.

[Dendio1]

Daennikus wrote...

AxisEvolve wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...
 Its gross 

Rane7685 wrote...
Im straight 

Pick one. 

You can be straight and not be attracted to obvious depictions of genitalia in situations that don't call for them.

Its just a little bump in between the legs that most people didn't even notice before flags were raised on the internet. Its covered by clothing. Its not noticible outside of one outfit.

Its just a little bump. This isnt doctor manhatten blue member hanging out and swinging with the currents ( and even that was more funny than disturbing)

Modifié par Dendio1, 22 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[LadyWench]

Yes, EDI has an ookie, inexplicable ****** that I can never unsee...but overall, I actually didn't mind. I hate when fem characters are stereotyped as the oversexed or unbelievably naive types, though for the most part I think BioWare is great at creating strong, dynamic in-game women. Mostly.

That said, the robot body in question is clearly attributed to TIM making a voluptuous sexbot named after his dead girlfriend, so I'd say in this case the hypersexualization is gross, but plot appropriate and meant to be weird. AND, if the other NPCs were to just ignore her bizarrely huge and inefficient metal rack, it would also be odd, but they don't. It becomes a running joke that people notice how absurdly...er, let's say proportioned, the design is and I can appreciate self-deprecating meta humor.

Also, yes, I am a legit female IRL (last time I checked)... XD