317 réponses à ce sujet

[Lethys1]

It's precisely discriminatory because it's entertainment, but I wouldn't have it any other way.  And can someone explain why it's misogynistic?  Perhaps the OP?

Modifié par Lethys1, 22 avril 2012 - 08:33 .

[Rane7685]

MrMcDoll wrote...

For me - sexualisation of characters is fine as long as it has a reason - If EDI's body was sexy because it was designed by Cerberus to be physically appealing - to help with infiltration, then that is fine justification for me.
At the end of the day, sexual appeal is a massive draw-card in getting ahead in life, this has it's roots in evolutionary competition. I am sick and tired of demonising sex-appeal and the uber-PC mentality of trying to deny our base animal desires and behaviours.
As a male, this apparently makes me a chauvanist or something. Even if I understand the merits of male sexualisation, strangely enough!!
Really though, I think it just makes me honest in the face of pressure to hide behind a PC facade!


In saying that though, if dr EVA had been made for combat, not wooing and decieving and still looked sexy, then that would have raised flags in my mind.

The directtion this thread has been going has been more appearance/personality. How many models do you see wandering around public wearing spandex? Its that kind of disconnect that alienates people

[tractrpl]

maia0407 wrote...

As a female gamer, yes, I am bothered by the over-sexualization of women in the ME universe. Before I get into the reasons, I just want to point out that I think the term misogyny is being used too loosely here as I don't see any evidence of hatred for women in the games. I see sexism which is bad enough but I don't think it reaches the level of misogyny.

I can't really discuss EDI without discussing the issues that I have with several of the other female characters including Miranda, Samara, Jack and Liara. I can't speak to Ashley as I haven't met her character. I'm a sex positive person and appreciate attractive people just as much as male gamers. The issue I have is when women's sexual attributes are emphasized to the point that the female characters are obviously being objectified. These women often have strong and interesting personalities. I don't dislike any of them. However, their sexualization in the game takes my mind off these women as people and I'm forced to take notice of their over enhanced attributes.

Often, I found it difficult to follow conversations as I was being forced to stare at Miranda's ass and wonder how in the hell she could find an outfit tight enough to hug her crack all the way up. Did she have it specially made to fit her butt that way? I wondered how thin the material had to be to show her belly-button and found her ****** distracting as well. I understand that Miranda was made to fit an ideal but was it really necessary to emphasize that ideal even further with that outfit? Would male gamers be disappointed to see her in something that didn't look like it was painted on? During combat, wouldn't it be more practical to ditch the catsuit and heels for armor and boots?

Samara's extremely low-cut catsuit complete with a wedgie and heels was almost as bad as Miranda's outfit. Once again, I found myself staring at her gigantic boobs, not her face, pondering her ridiculous outfit and over endowed bust and not paying attention to the conversation. Her outfit in particular just did not fit her persona. Liara and Jack's outfits suffered from similar problems.

These women are objectified. They are made to satisfy the male gaze; this objectification detracts from the characterization. How am I supposed to take a character seriously when they are dressed so ridiculously? I don't need their sexuality constantly thrown in my face to know that they are sexual people. Ridiculously large busts and asses coupled with silly outfits that most professionals (well, with the exception of certain pro's)  would not wear just screams 'Don't take me seriously. I'm just here to be oggled at!'

Take a step back for a moment guys, and imagine that the male characters were put in similar outfits with similar enhancements to their fun parts. Imagine Vega in a skin tight suit that revealed the outline of his oversized penis and balls. Or, imagine Thane in an outfit that revealed his butt cleavage. Can you tell me that you would take these men seriously? Would they be a distraction for you?

Take a look at this website that shows depictions of men dressed as female comic book characters.

http://goodcomics.co...her-side-lives/

Do you see my point? Those guys look like jokes and that is what BW has done to many of the women in the games. I'll state again, I have no problem with attractive people in the game. But, come on, let's throw out this idealized fantasy version of women as the norm and engage women as people.

Finally, this brings me to Edi. She is the final culmination of this problem. I got tired of looking at her overemphasized bust complete with no clothes. So, I put some clothes on her only to get heels and a ******. I dunno which is worse. Furthering the problem, as so many have mentioned, is the character arc that is explored in relation to sexual relationship with a man. Come on BW, you couldn't think of anything more original than sexy fembot? I'm left pondering how in the hell Edi and Joker can get it on without breaking Joker instead of thinking about the implications of a fully formed AI that is part of the ship but that also has a body. There is so much more territory that could have been explored with Edi but wasn't considered  as she was reduced to her sexuality.

BW did a wonderful job with femShep (although I think this was a by-product of her being the alter ego of male Shep and not by design). FemShep is not a sexualized stereotype. She's kick-ass, strong, intelligent, and sexy all at the same time. Give me more of that BW.

I miss Liara's scientist clothes  I hope someone creates a mod to have her wear that again instead of that outfit with extra padding.

[Rane7685]

Lethys1 wrote...

It's precisely discriminatory because it's entertainment, but I wouldn't have it any other way.  And can someone explain why it's misogynistic?  Perhaps the OP?

Misogynistic was an inappropriate word in that its a little too inflammtory. The women being unbelievably attractive isnt really the issue but their personalities (in other games BW is great on this front) and their apparel (high heels skin tight etc) does a disservice to women and can be partticularly alienating

[The Protheans]

You can't hypersexualise girls, they practically beg to be admired and reamed.

[LumbercracK]

I hate hypersexualization. Ashley in me3 made me mad. God and poetry aside she was Acctually really similar to my gf. Tough, forward, strong. Then they changed that.

The thing I accept now though is that in media you have to hit your audience over the head or they won't get it. If I make a movie with average looking people throughout you will not come out of it pineing for the female lead. You have to hypersexualize or you may not get the result you want. If you dont say look at these boobs and just make them average and bland. No one will notice them.

Just like women's armour that includes their cup size for some reason. It has to be their or you won't ever think of her as sexy while she's in armour.

Why do men want this? Most guys don't want powerful strong women. They want the frail ones. The idea of a woman in a short skirt and tube top with a big sword/gun is attractive because they are frail and easily dominated but they appreciate aggression and violence.

Most guys don't like the idea of a girl beating them in anything. So we make them frail sex objects rather then fully fleshed out individuals.

At least that's what i see

[LoneEffect]

Jack said it best at Grissom Academy, EDI went from a sex toy to a sex bot. Jack always tells it like it is.

I am probably one of the few who feels this way, I found the idea of a relationship between Joker and EDI disturbing and creepy.

ShepLoo is total eye candy for us gals. Yes, we only get one girls, that's all we are entitled to. James Vega was an unattractive massive monster, Cortez well nothing gonna happen there, and Joker, ok, love his character but he has the sex appeal of a dead trout. Kaiden, well he was such a dullard. So we are left with the default character of Shep, while the guys get Ashley, Liara, Tali, Miranda, and Jack. All members of the TA&C (******, arse, and camel) Academy. Notice there's a female for EVERY possible variation for any male gamer out there, we get ShepLoo, the man without a package. Not complaining, I love Mark Vanderloo, he was delicious in his day.

[gearseffect]

OK Rane your original post has caught my eye and I shall offer up my very own insight into your thoughts on hyper sexualised females and EDI's body.
For the record I am a dude

First and foremost I want go over a few of the other Female Characters of ME with my own outlook
hyper sexualised
1.Miranda: There was nothing respectful to woman and females with how she was treated. At least half of my real life female friends (that are gamers and play ME) were repulsed at Miranda's behavior and the camera angles.

Next good god almighty, Miranda had a great body and the butt shots seduced me to romance her ONCE. In my very first ME2 playthrough, The reason I only romanced her once

I tend to be more of a dude who goes for personalty over a great body. Miranda came off as a total stuck up b!tch, self-centered and egotistical, and had a holier than thou attitude which is all a huge turn off for me. Add to that those camera angles and well how can I put this.... after one playthrough it added to the huge list turn off factors. Miranda was not the type that was re-playable cannon value LI for me. Much of that was due to BioWare attempts at making her the ultimate ME sex symbol, which was done to the point they had in-game jokes about it.


2.Samara, OK she had massive cleavage and her boobs were hanging out there, but it wasn't the focus of her at all, in fact the camera angels mainly focused on her face. It was all done in a respectful and non over sexual way. I loved Samara, in fact she my main-cannon LI. For many reasons and one of those things I like is that she don't just cave to Shepards will.

3,Ashley Williams ME1&2, By far the most realistically believable character in ME, she was extremely easy to relate to for me. She was just your everyday chick, grew up in a relatively normal life, and had more modern religious beliefs. Her look in the first two games, was great, no make up, and she had that Latin dark skin tone, making her just a natural good looking chick.
In ME2 I liked Ashley even more because her reaction to Shepard coming back from the dead was what I kinda expect one would be like after some had been died for 2 years, and then came back to life. Very believable.

3.B Ashley Williams ME3, well in the first part of ME3 her personality remained the same (it was non-existent most the time as a squad mate), her new make over was over the top, too far. It was BioWare trying to change something they didn't need to. They gave her skin tone a lighter color, gave her plastic surgery of all kinds, lips, butt, ******, it Miranda mixxed with some of Ashley. BioWare was like ohh no in ME2 Miranda can die, umm we need to create new ultimate sex symbol lets take Ashley Williams and give her a makeover to do it.

Now that that's out of the way, My stand point on this is as a dude, I can even see woman character (or woman in movies, or in the Rock and Roll business) as being too Sexualized, to the point they lose much of my respect for doing that.

The example I always use In Rock/Metal is Lita Ford who's biggest reason for being as big as she was and is, due she let herself become a sex symbol and continues to be one and enjoy it. She got the term the Metal Queen because of it, if fact there is nothing Metal about Lita Fords music, it's like saying Poison is Metal.

But then you go and look at Doro Pesch from Warlock/Doro and she's got clothes on, and her music is kick ass Metal, but yet she don't sell as many albums as Lita because she never let herself become a sex symbol. She just continued making kick ass True Metal, and that why she is the true Metal Queen.

OK sorry for my long detour taken to prove my point (which is likely lost on many if not all of you) anway EDI's default Body, I liked it, She remained true to her character and her personalty was the same. I also openly admit I found EDI's default all Metal no clothing body sexy.

I know you asked to try and ignore the ****** outfit/body, but I can't because it's like whoa WTF? BioWare it's one thing to give EDI a Cerberus officer outfit like Miranda but this right here the ****** is an all time low for you, it beats those butt shots you did all the time with Miranda.A giant ****** is also a major turn off for me, and the in-game EDI Camel-Toe is no different.

SO all things considered I liked EDI's body and felt that her default metal body was done tastefully and respectfully.
The outfit(s) that had ******, well those just defeat BioWares current saying of "We continue to defend it all as art, and our Artistic Integrity shall be upheld first and foremost" A single pic of the EDI Camel-Toe destroys that stupid BS they try and sell us

Again I felt EDI's body was done respectfully and tastefully (for the most part)

[Reaperpoo]

GlassElephant wrote...

I'm a female gamer and I wasn't bothered by her new body. I get the argument you're making, but it's just something I overlook. Female characters in video games are always going to be sexy; I mean Mass Effect has an entire race of bisexual blue women.

Besides, Shepard doesn't get the opportunity to bang her like he can with all the other female squadmates

haha this, I wasn't bothered either.  

[Biotic_Warlock]

Edi's body does seem to objectify female aspects a lot.
I did find the first (lighter) outfit to be a little objectifying and sexist, so i changed to the darker one which takes away emphasis on that.

Joker seems to objectify her a bit; if i was EDI i'd slap his face silly, then hug him cos he's look adorable when he starts crying.

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 22 avril 2012 - 08:54 .

[sasasasue]

I am female, and I do get irritated by hypersexualisation of female characters, but somehow I've learnt to deal with it, and actually just have a stare anyway now. Women being portrayed like this is a problem that rings through the whole of society. If you watch perfume adverts, clothes adverts, etc, they are all sexualised to a degree. In Fiction this tends to happen a lot too.

Take for example, Seven of Nine in Star Trek Voyager (If you haven't watched it, just google and you'll see). Her everyday clothes are all skin tight bodysuits, yet her character is completely unsexual until the last series. Initially her character felt like an obvious eye candy opportunity. However, as they developed her storyline, she became more and more interesting, and although she was still dressed in tight clothes, there was quite a lot of respect for her.

The EDI issue reminds me of this, because EDIs body was sexualised, but I don't think it depreciated her character in any way.

I'm not saying that oversexualisation of female characters is all well and good, but Bioware do give their characters a certain amount of respect. To be honest, I would agree that some of the male characters are sexualised too. Take for example (everyones' favourite LI ) Jacob. If you do Lair of the Shadow Broker, you can watch a video where he has no top on and is doing press ups. Also, if you look at Thane, he seams to have a preeeettyy tight bodysuit on, and there is "bulge".

Though I didn't play with Ashley in ME3, I didn't like her redesign. In ME1 she looked like a normal person, (as did Kaidan). No fancy make up, nothing crazy, just an natural looking girl. However, when we got to ME3, this completely changed.
"http://www.gameranx.com/img/11-Nov/yrc7j.jpeg"
(Just taken from google.)



To round things up;
I am a girl. Yes I think characters are hypersexualised. Yes this bothers me to a degree, but I've numbed myself to it because hypersexualisation is everywhere. Bioware are not as guilty as others, because at least they give their sexualised characters a respectable personality (Even Jacob lol).


(EDIT: tried to put in that image, but am a N00b and failed )

Modifié par sasasasue, 22 avril 2012 - 08:56 .

[Geomon19]

sasasasue wrote...
Though I didn't play with Ashley in ME3, I didn't like her redesign. In ME1 she looked like a normal person, (as did Kaidan). No fancy make up, nothing crazy, just an natural looking girl. However, when we got to ME3, this completely changed.

(Just taken from google.)

Looks the same to me (besides the hair of course).

[RShara]

Um, the eyebrows are different, the eye shapes are different, and the mandibles are different. can't tell about the ears.

I found EDI's body to be kinda silly, but I just rolled my eyes and moved on. I think I'm just desensitized about it all by now

[sistersafetypin]

As a chick gamer I was more annoyed with Shep's new "hooker" wear. My Shepard wouldn't be caught dead in that. Even for Kasumi.

I was pissed about Ashley though. The first time I saw her I thought it was Miranda or some random nobody. They just, completely retconned her personality.

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 22 avril 2012 - 09:47 .

[Sleepdribble]

Geomon19 wrote...

sasasasue wrote...
Though I didn't play with Ashley in ME3, I didn't like her redesign. In ME1 she looked like a normal person, (as did Kaidan). No fancy make up, nothing crazy, just an natural looking girl. However, when we got to ME3, this completely changed.

(Just taken from google.)

Looks the same to me (besides the hair of course).

Ugg. Then you need to pay more attention the the pictures you just posted, my friend. Blind Freddy can see the over-sexualisation of Ashley.

For starters, her eyes appear wider in ME3 (compare the space around the iris) which indicates youth/naivety/innocence and often triggers a protective instinct in males. Her skin has changed in tone from a pale gold colour indicative of an exotic and interesting heritage, to a blander, typically 'white' skin tone which is more mainstream and far less challenging to Bioware's perceived target audience. She wears heavier 'vanity' makeup, which signals her desire to appeal to people on a physical level. And her hair has gone from practical and earthy, to something reminiscent of a night out on the town, or an intimate night in.

Ashley is practically slapping male gamers in the face with her genitals. (OK, that was a little extreme, but I'm leaving it here anyway because it makes me sound crazy self-righteous and this is the BSN, right?)

Ashley has gone from: 'I fiercely protect my family, friends and beliefs' in ME1 and ME2,  to: 'I need help getting up from the floor because, silly me, I got drunk and isn't it hilariously adorable' in ME3.

That's what I reckon.

Modifié par Sleepdribble, 22 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Gexora]

I am female gamer, but I am also into women, so I dunno if my opinion counts.
I loved the idea of EDI getting a body (I also love everything about EDI and EDI x Joker. EVERYTHING). However, when I saw the concept art in the artbook, I was heartbroken. So many concepts were much better looking and they definetely went for this one just to make her look sexy. I mean, you can make character look sexy without being obvious about it.
Buttshots are okay. Camel toes are not, in my opinion.

Modifié par Gexora, 22 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[Hobbes]

I'm a female gamer myself and I don't really have an issue with EDI, I actually quite liked the contrast of her personality and look. The only female character I actually had an issue with was Ashley, they took away her sort of tough military look and just dolled her up past what I felt was reasonable...but eh I guess that's just the way of things now.

[gearseffect]

Geomon19 wrote...

sasasasue wrote...
Though I didn't play with Ashley in ME3, I didn't like her redesign. In ME1 she looked like a normal person, (as did Kaidan). No fancy make up, nothing crazy, just an natural looking girl. However, when we got to ME3, this completely changed.

(Just taken from google.)

Looks the same to me (besides the hair of course).

My God that ME3 pic of Ashley, I found a picture of what ME3 Ashley will look like when she gets older


And people wonder how the Ashley is a tranny in ME3 rumors started.

Modifié par gearseffect, 22 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[Rane7685]

Gexora wrote...

I am female gamer, but I am also into wome, so I dunno if my opinion counts.
I loved the idea of EDI getting a body (I also love everything about EDI and EDI x Joker. EVERYTHING). However, when I saw the concept art in the artbook, I was heartbroken. So many concepts were muh better looking and they definetely went for this one just to make her look sexy. I mean, you can make character look sexy without being obvious about it.
Buttshots are okay. Camel toes are not, in my opinion.

Just fyi you opinion does count

[gearseffect]

What about mine huge giant enormous long opinion?

[Rane7685]

Yes yours too

[Jagri]

I am a male gamer and I dont really have a problem with EDI appearance. Then again it seems sexy/beautiful/pretty A.I. isn't a new concept really.

Halo: Cortana / System Shock: Shodan / I, Robot: VIKI / Blade Runner: Rachael (List could go on for a while )

I did roll my eyes at all the "artistic" camera angles they had for Miranda. If I had to complain however about anything its Ashley's new look I strongly prefere her older style.

Modifié par Jagri, 22 avril 2012 - 10:32 .

[Gexora]

gearseffect wrote...

*snip*

I really disagree with you on Miranda, but that's the diiscussion for another time. 
However, I agree. Samara is good example. Her cleavage is there and is a bit ridiculous, but there is much more to her than that. and god, when she cried it was a moment of pure beauty.
Also Ash...*sob*. 

[Kara Nan]

maia0407's post was excellent, and perfectly describes the problem of sexism/objectification in games IMO.

However as a female gamer, I have to admit that I did not have a huge problem with EDI.
My only gripe is that I think some of the other concepts from the art book are better. Maybe not because they're less sexualized, but because they looked more... endearing?
The one they picked makes her look a bit like some super model and if I were to judge her by her looks, I would not describe her as a sympathetic character. That might just be bias from my side, though.

As a side-note, I was not bothered by Miranda's appearance too much because I feel it was a part of her character. However the butt-shots were a bit immersion-breaking because it was obviously there for maleshep.

Ashley's makeover is my biggest issue, because it seems to contradict her (maybe even controversial) personality in favor of sex-appeal. Sad, really.
Oh and for the record, I think Ashley was prettier in the previous games. She was a natural beauty.

Modifié par Kara Nan, 22 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[Flidget]

I was alright with EDI's body in terms of the context it was presented in: the body wasn't initially designed for her, it's not her main body and one of the reasons she maintains it is because she wants a relationship with Joker. It's like the robot version of date underwear.

Like everyone else has mentioned, though, Ashley's redesign was seriously out-of-place and out-of-character.