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Wow, Priority: Earth IS terrible...


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#201
txgoldrush

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CHALET wrote...

Even the Battle for the Citadel in ME1 felt more epic than Earth. It's clear they ran out of time and had to rush out this half-arsed farce. The "Goodbye" scenes were epic and set the scene, but the rest was a major let down, especially the 'final horde'.


Art least it provided a good challange, unlike Stasis and shoot Saren, the the Terminator god baby...


...nevermind what they cut was many stupid elements like turning TIM into a brute....be thankful some parts got cut.

Is it as epic as the Citadel mission? No...but it still works. Its just not the best mission in the game. Niether was the Suicide Mission, which is even shorter than ME3's final mission.

#202
humes spork

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

http://doycetesterma...tistic-process/

Good read, he uses LoTR with ME3's ending

...and if Mass Effect had followed Tolkein's formula, BSN would be on their hands and knees begging for the first turn gobbling Casey Hudson's balls because Tolkein was all about the eucatastrophe. Which basically meant "screw the narrative, structure, and my own themes of inevitable corruption and the passage of genuine good from the world, happy endings for everyone!". I love the hell out of Tolkein, and even I of all people have to admit the eucatastrophe gets fricken' old and busted after using it once or twice, and he pulled that narrative technique out his arse no fewer times than twice per story.

Just goes to show you people think their space waifus or whatever are vastly more important than maintaining the "no victory without sacrifice" theme present in the games, but especially the third.

#203
dunstan1993

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

it wasnt that bad the first time because you werent nit picking for something to be angry about, at face value its a good mission, when you start picking it apart it falls apart like almost every mission in every mass effect game to date, also the suicide mission was great but the human reaper boss fight was to me what the endings are to you, it was a terrible tacted on after thought that didn't even need to be apart of it. Saren's terrible boss fight that just highlighted the first games terrible combat was to me as the endings are to you, totally unnecessary and annoying, there's always been bad endings/bad missions and every single games ending has been an open ended no closure ending. Nostalgia seems to place some really heavy handed rose tinted glasses on people sometimes.


@bolded text
Which is fine for ME1 and ME2's endings, but you'd think that ME3's ending wouldn't be "an open ended no closure ending" since it's the permanent END of the trilogy?

Just look at the ending to Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, that's a satisfying ending which provides closure. Imagine if it just suddenly ended with The Ring being destroyed.

http://doycetesterma...tistic-process/

Good read, he uses LoTR with ME3's ending


Great read I doubt I'd have found that, thanks.

#204
CHALET

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txgoldrush wrote...

CHALET wrote...

Even the Battle for the Citadel in ME1 felt more epic than Earth. It's clear they ran out of time and had to rush out this half-arsed farce. The "Goodbye" scenes were epic and set the scene, but the rest was a major let down, especially the 'final horde'.


Art least it provided a good challange, unlike Stasis and shoot Saren, the the Terminator god baby...


...nevermind what they cut was many stupid elements like turning TIM into a brute....be thankful some parts got cut.

Is it as epic as the Citadel mission? No...but it still works. Its just not the best mission in the game. Niether was the Suicide Mission, which is even shorter than ME3's final mission.


Throwing a generic mass of powerful enemies at you is not good game design, it is lazy and a vain attempt at drawing out what was already a rather short mission. If they wanted to do a "Hold the line" they should have had us running into the trenches with the War Asset troops, seeing Jack's biotics hoisting up barriers, our old companions like Zaeed and Miranda fighting by our side, Reapers in the distance (or even firing at us like what actually happened), assets like the Cerberus Fighters and Volus Bombing Fleet providing air support and making it easier for us if we had aquired them, etc. Hell, just throw in the "all your favourite characters in one big trench" and it would have felt that much better. Even Brothers in Arms OPENING THIRTY SECONDS did "hold the line" better than this.

-THAT- would have been an epic 'horde mode finale'. Instead we get Gears of Effect where we sit against a wall for ten minutes slugging down a dozen brutes.

Modifié par CHALET, 29 avril 2012 - 12:29 .


#205
txgoldrush

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CHALET wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CHALET wrote...

Even the Battle for the Citadel in ME1 felt more epic than Earth. It's clear they ran out of time and had to rush out this half-arsed farce. The "Goodbye" scenes were epic and set the scene, but the rest was a major let down, especially the 'final horde'.


Art least it provided a good challange, unlike Stasis and shoot Saren, the the Terminator god baby...


...nevermind what they cut was many stupid elements like turning TIM into a brute....be thankful some parts got cut.

Is it as epic as the Citadel mission? No...but it still works. Its just not the best mission in the game. Niether was the Suicide Mission, which is even shorter than ME3's final mission.


Throwing a generic mass of powerful enemies at you is not good game design, it is lazy and a vain attempt at drawing out what was already a rather short mission. If they wanted to do a "Hold the line" they should have had us running into the trenches with the War Asset troops, seeing Jack's biotics hoisting up barriers, our old companions like Zaeed and Miranda fighting by our side, Reapers in the distance (or even firing at us like what actually happened), assets like the Cerberus Fighters and Volus Bombing Fleet providing air support and making it easier for us if we had aquired them, etc. Hell, just throw in the "all your favourite characters in one big trench" and it would have felt that much better. Even Brothers in Arms OPENING THIRTY SECONDS did "hold the line" better than this.

-THAT- would have been an epic 'horde mode finale'. Instead we get Gears of Effect where we sit against a wall for ten minutes slugging down a dozen brutes.




First off.....Priority Earth is actually LONGER than The Suicide Mission in ME2, with a rest stop along the way.

No, the final mission wa suspposed to show the overwhelming odds Hammer has to endure as they take massive casualties. Shepard is on his own with his squad because everyone is getting overrun.

And many of the ground assets are accounted for in cutscenes.

The finale simply was not going for the epic Battle of Endor angle.

#206
CHALET

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txgoldrush wrote...

First off.....Priority Earth is actually LONGER than The Suicide Mission in ME2, with a rest stop along the way.

No, the final mission wa suspposed to show the overwhelming odds Hammer has to endure as they take massive casualties. Shepard is on his own with his squad because everyone is getting overrun.

And many of the ground assets are accounted for in cutscenes.

The finale simply was not going for the epic Battle of Endor angle.


I don't know why I'm arguing with somebody who has a "Deserves better fans" BioWare Defence Force siggie, but I'll bite.

The ground assets are not accounted for. Whether you have fifty or six thousand, you always see Hammer marines arriving, getting cut down and moving to the FOP. You always see the Asari/Turian/Krogan troops being killed by the Reaper. 

The fact you spent 99% of the game trying to build up a massive force to drive off the Reapers I would say that the Battle of Endor is definetly NOT what they were going for. Everything else about Mass Effect 3's marketing has been about "bigger and more epic". Why -wouldn't- they do that in the final mission when they have been ramping everything up like this? Surely if that is what they wanted we would get more scenes of squaddies potentially dying, sacrifice, all that affair.

Hammer was moving at the same pace as Shepard, you just didn't see them because of how bloody rushed it was. Do the 'flat carpet' processed models used in the Collector areas in ME2 not scream that?

Modifié par CHALET, 29 avril 2012 - 12:46 .


#207
dunstan1993

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[quote]humes spork wrote...

[quote]Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

http://doycetesterma...tistic-process/

Just goes to show you people think their space waifus or whatever are vastly more important than maintaining the "no victory without sacrifice" theme present in the games, but especially the third.
[/quote]


I'm fine with the "no victory without sacrifice theme, but near the end that theme became "no victory without a deax ex machina".

ffs, what happend there? anyway the bit in bold is what I just said and the underlined is what human spork said.


Modifié par dunstan1993, 29 avril 2012 - 12:48 .


#208
DTKT

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txgoldrush wrote...

CHALET wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CHALET wrote...

Even the Battle for the Citadel in ME1 felt more epic than Earth. It's clear they ran out of time and had to rush out this half-arsed farce. The "Goodbye" scenes were epic and set the scene, but the rest was a major let down, especially the 'final horde'.


Art least it provided a good challange, unlike Stasis and shoot Saren, the the Terminator god baby...


...nevermind what they cut was many stupid elements like turning TIM into a brute....be thankful some parts got cut.

Is it as epic as the Citadel mission? No...but it still works. Its just not the best mission in the game. Niether was the Suicide Mission, which is even shorter than ME3's final mission.


Throwing a generic mass of powerful enemies at you is not good game design, it is lazy and a vain attempt at drawing out what was already a rather short mission. If they wanted to do a "Hold the line" they should have had us running into the trenches with the War Asset troops, seeing Jack's biotics hoisting up barriers, our old companions like Zaeed and Miranda fighting by our side, Reapers in the distance (or even firing at us like what actually happened), assets like the Cerberus Fighters and Volus Bombing Fleet providing air support and making it easier for us if we had aquired them, etc. Hell, just throw in the "all your favourite characters in one big trench" and it would have felt that much better. Even Brothers in Arms OPENING THIRTY SECONDS did "hold the line" better than this.

-THAT- would have been an epic 'horde mode finale'. Instead we get Gears of Effect where we sit against a wall for ten minutes slugging down a dozen brutes.




First off.....Priority Earth is actually LONGER than The Suicide Mission in ME2, with a rest stop along the way.

No, the final mission wa suspposed to show the overwhelming odds Hammer has to endure as they take massive casualties. Shepard is on his own with his squad because everyone is getting overrun.

And many of the ground assets are accounted for in cutscenes.

The finale simply was not going for the epic Battle of Endor angle.


What assets? They show nothing.

Don't forget that amazing turret sequence right before you talk with your squadmates. Priority Earth is easily one of the worst missions in ME3.

#209
Exousia001

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txgoldrush wrote...

CHALET wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CHALET wrote...

Even the Battle for the Citadel in ME1 felt more epic than Earth. It's clear they ran out of time and had to rush out this half-arsed farce. The "Goodbye" scenes were epic and set the scene, but the rest was a major let down, especially the 'final horde'.


Art least it provided a good challange, unlike Stasis and shoot Saren, the the Terminator god baby...


...nevermind what they cut was many stupid elements like turning TIM into a brute....be thankful some parts got cut.

Is it as epic as the Citadel mission? No...but it still works. Its just not the best mission in the game. Niether was the Suicide Mission, which is even shorter than ME3's final mission.


Throwing a generic mass of powerful enemies at you is not good game design, it is lazy and a vain attempt at drawing out what was already a rather short mission. If they wanted to do a "Hold the line" they should have had us running into the trenches with the War Asset troops, seeing Jack's biotics hoisting up barriers, our old companions like Zaeed and Miranda fighting by our side, Reapers in the distance (or even firing at us like what actually happened), assets like the Cerberus Fighters and Volus Bombing Fleet providing air support and making it easier for us if we had aquired them, etc. Hell, just throw in the "all your favourite characters in one big trench" and it would have felt that much better. Even Brothers in Arms OPENING THIRTY SECONDS did "hold the line" better than this.

-THAT- would have been an epic 'horde mode finale'. Instead we get Gears of Effect where we sit against a wall for ten minutes slugging down a dozen brutes.




First off.....Priority Earth is actually LONGER than The Suicide Mission in ME2, with a rest stop along the way.

No, the final mission wa suspposed to show the overwhelming odds Hammer has to endure as they take massive casualties. Shepard is on his own with his squad because everyone is getting overrun.

And many of the ground assets are accounted for in cutscenes.

The finale simply was not going for the epic Battle of Endor angle.


WTF?

My War Assets matter? 

WTF were you smoking? However you ARE correct in one thing. The War Assets determines rather the Destroy Ending will kill all life and structures on Earth. Also, it gives you the Synthesis Ending.

Other than that, wtf were you smoking?

#210
Rane7685

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I really liked Priority Earth it really felt like a war zone. Having to adjust the plan on the fly to take out a hades cannon because the heavy weapons transport went down, followed by final goodbyes to squaddies then having to hold down the fort while I get swarmed with a **** tonne of enemies (much better than that ridiculous human reaper fight in ME2) followed by an epic sprint to the conduit while getting blasted by harbinger. And thats just the narrative. It looked great too with lights blaring alarms going off tanks overturned transports flying in and getting blown out of the sky etc etc

#211
liggy002

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What the hell was the problem with the Human Reaper fight? I really don't get it. That was a great sequence. Compare that to Harbinger blasting us and then taking off. That's how they end the series? That's pure crap!

#212
Humanoid_Typhoon

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humes spork wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

http://doycetesterma...tistic-process/

Good read, he uses LoTR with ME3's ending

...and if Mass Effect had followed Tolkein's formula, BSN would be on their hands and knees begging for the first turn gobbling Casey Hudson's balls because Tolkein was all about the eucatastrophe. Which basically meant "screw the narrative, structure, and my own themes of inevitable corruption and the passage of genuine good from the world, happy endings for everyone!". I love the hell out of Tolkein, and even I of all people have to admit the eucatastrophe gets fricken' old and busted after using it once or twice, and he pulled that narrative technique out his arse no fewer times than twice per story.

Just goes to show you people think their space waifus or whatever are vastly more important than maintaining the "no victory without sacrifice" theme present in the games, but especially the third.

That whizzing sound was the point of that article passing over your head.

#213
viperabyss

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liggy002 wrote...

What the hell was the problem with the Human Reaper fight? I really don't get it. That was a great sequence. Compare that to Harbinger blasting us and then taking off. That's how they end the series? That's pure crap!


I think people thought it was very cheesy, and the fight was quite easy and unchallenging. There aren't a lot of variation in fighting the boss.

Personally I liked it. I think the suicide mission was one of the most exciting missions in the whole ME trilogy. Priority Earth, on the other hand, is one of the worst, if not THE worst.

#214
bpzrn

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It's tragic when you compare it to the rousing finish of ME2: using your whole team for various tasks, the mounting drama as your push to the main chamber becomes more desperate, the fact that anyone could die at any given time...

By comparison, ME3's last mission feels slapped together and unfinished.

#215
Whereto

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You honestly can't defend this mission. It was boring, lack laster, rushed and overall horrible. None of ur war assets matter. Sure you get a few turian, Krogan and asari cut scenes, but so what? Wheather you get these or not, you still get the same gameplay and scenes. Even then the scenes only include the war assets you will defiantly get(you still get Krogans even if you have wrex pull out his troops).

Then the boring horde mode. I get it, there are a lot of reaper troops, but you couldn't of done it slightly better? There was no epic feeling to just fighting wave after wave by yourself

And txgoldrush, mate you trying to save a sinking ship. The mission is horrible. It lacks the feeling the final battle should Who cares if it was longer than the SM? The bulk of earth is just wave after wave fighting, especially on insanity. What you should of seen is your war assets in real time helping you, not this crappy solo mission through a war zone that lack any sort of feeling. You can have somber without making it a solo rush mission through the largest war in the galaxy.

#216
sdfgdsfsdfsfs

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You clearly don't understand art.

*posh*

Modifié par sdfgdsfsdfsfs, 29 avril 2012 - 02:32 .


#217
Rane7685

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viperabyss wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

What the hell was the problem with the Human Reaper fight? I really don't get it. That was a great sequence. Compare that to Harbinger blasting us and then taking off. That's how they end the series? That's pure crap!


I think people thought it was very cheesy, and the fight was quite easy and unchallenging. There aren't a lot of variation in fighting the boss.

Personally I liked it. I think the suicide mission was one of the most exciting missions in the whole ME trilogy. Priority Earth, on the other hand, is one of the worst, if not THE worst.


The suicide mission amounted to walking down a long corridor killing collectors in pretty much the same environment that we saw earlier. Only to get to the end and face a boss that was unbearaby easy to defeat, looked ridiculous and made little sense. I mean why use collectors (that are so obviously weaker than reapers) to harvest humanity. Why not wait till the reaper armada arrives then harvest humanity. The point of ME2 shouldve been the collectors developing a way for the reapers  to arrive given citadel was  no go after ME1. The only thing i liked in the suicide mission was Jacks barrier as it really showed how far she had come as a character for me.

Also for a suicide mission no one died. I thought I was going to have to pick  and choose between people to live and die like the virmire survivor but no everyone lived. I had to replay it and deliberately make stupid decisions to get people to die (seriously did anyone honestly not pick jack or samara to make the bubble?) and even then the deaths were kinda random.

To recap suicide mission was a long corridor in a familiar environment (although not reused at least) to face a ludicrous boss. I still enjoyed the mission as I enjoyed ME2 but it wasnt anyhing particularly special. I actually prefer priority earth now that I thinkk about it for the reasons I said above

For reference

Rane7685 wrote...

I really liked Priority Earth it really felt like a war zone. Having to adjust the plan on the fly to take out a hades cannon because the heavy weapons transport went down, followed by final goodbyes to squaddies then having to hold down the fort while I get swarmed with a **** tonne of enemies (much better than that ridiculous human reaper fight in ME2) followed by an epic sprint to the conduit while getting blasted by harbinger. And thats just the narrative. It looked great too with lights blaring alarms going off tanks overturned transports flying in and getting blown out of the sky etc etc

 

Modifié par Rane7685, 29 avril 2012 - 02:38 .


#218
Storin

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txgoldrush wrote...

No Priority Earth was excellent...its just does not have the epic tone.....it has a dark sad tone.

Admit it as well, the part where Shepard has to crawl through the corpsed filled hallway in the Citadel was a brilliant part.


Are you serious? That was so bad it made me sick. I mean, even if the plot at that point wasn't assinine, the mechanics were indredibly boring. I mean, who thought it would be fun to have you spend the end of the game limping around at half speed in order to do something any other random soldier on Earth could have done just as well as Shepard?

#219
Rane7685

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I should point out that priority earth ends (at least for me) at harbingers beam. It does not include the ending

#220
humes spork

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dunstan1993 wrote...

I'm fine with the "no victory without sacrifice theme, but near the end that theme became "no victory without a deax ex machina".

To be quite honest, the seeds for deus ex machina were laid in ME1. Why, you might ask?

Lovecraftian horror.

There are two key elements in Lovecraftian horror. One is the antagonists are on such an alien level of existence they are not, and cannot, be exposited. They can't or don't engage the protagonists, ever. The only point of engagement is by proxy. The second is protagonists never win; "success" in Lovecraftian horror is completely reframed as "not a total, apocalyptic, failure".

For obvious reasons, that makes for a ****ty video game. The only franchise I can name offhand that does it with any sense of aplomb, decency, and fidelity is the Silent Hill series (which is, I'll note, merely "psychological horror" opposed to full-stop Lovecraftian horror though the similarities are staggering). When's the last time one of those games made waves in the industry or could be said to be anything beyond a "moderate success"?

And, Mass Effect is at its heart a space opera. As a genre, space operas demand engagement between protagonist and antagonist, to elevate tension, create drama and to further development between both. To serve that goal, antagonists must be exposited and accessible to the audience. And, the most damning thing in this case is that in space opera, protagonists win.

Those are two genres that in terms of characterization of antagonist and plot resolution, could not contrast more. That's especially true in the medium of video games, when the audience is an active participant and when the game exists for a final cause, whether that's for the players' enjoyment or for the game's ending. Since Mass Effect is a multimedia trilogy, special attention must be paid to the latter category given the immense investment on the part of the player(s) to achieve a conclusion to the story.

What it all boils down to is that one of those two genres had to fall by the wayside by the end of Mass Effect 3. The game either had to go full Lovecraft, or full space opera. Right up until ME3 the game had been eschewing Lovecraftian elements left and right. Sovereign engaged Shepard in dialog (strike 1), Sovereign died (strike 2) as the result of hubris (a humanizing trait, strike 3).  Harbinger was a true-to-formula space opera and video game villain, and the Reapers were exposited further. Mass Effect 3 for some reason slid back into Lovecraft territory when it really shouldn't have given the development and exposition of the previous two games, and especially did so at the end of the game.

Then you had the starbrat, which was so far out of left field especially in terms of Lovecraftian horror it absolutely boggles the mind. But he was necessary -- because, remember what I said about Lovecraftian plot resolution? Protagonists do not win, in any conventional sense. The only way to reconcile that is through deus ex machina, especially to deliver the ending that is at the very least bittersweet let alone eucatastrophic or even happy the space opera genre -- and video games as an interactive medium as a whole -- dictates.

Now, coming back full circle to the Tolkein commentary: the eucatastrophe. It was Tolkein's plot device for ensuring a good outcome for the protagonist(s) -- in the falling action, opposed to during the climax which makes it distinct from deus ex machina -- regardless of previous events.

A Tolkeinesque, eucatastrophic resolution for a singular event in ME3 would be, say, for a space eagle to shatter the Shroud's window, rescue Mordin and carry him to safety before the tower blew up. Or, for a space eagle to catch Grunt after he jumped off the ravine and carry him to the Normandy's shuttle. Or, a space eagle showing up and rebooting Legion after disseminating his personality into the geth. Or, after talking to the Catalyst a space eagle shows up and at Shepard's behest blows the power conduit, flies into the merge beam (hilariously turning everyone into space eagle-people, I imagine), or disintengrates itself controlling the Reapers. Or a flock of space eagles catching the Normandy as the mass-free corridor collapses and carrying it back to Earth.

Eagle snark aside (it's always eagles in Tolkein's work), need I point out how mind-****ingly stupid any of this would be? Especially in the case of undermining the very theme and meaning of sacrifice to the greater story.

#221
viperabyss

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Rane7685 wrote...


The suicide mission amounted to walking down a long corridor killing collectors in pretty much the same environment that we saw earlier. Only to get to the end and face a boss that was unbearaby easy to defeat, looked ridiculous and made little sense. I mean why use collectors (that are so obviously weaker than reapers) to harvest humanity. Why not wait till the reaper armada arrives then harvest humanity. The point of ME2 shouldve been the collectors developing a way for the reapers  to arrive given citadel was  no go after ME1. The only thing i liked in the suicide mission was Jacks barrier as it really showed how far she had come as a character for me.


And in terms of "walking down a long corridor killing", how is it different from Priority: Earth? The paths are very linear, and the enemies are easy. The only difference is, the first part of the suicide mission does have a mechanism that forces you to play faster, which is something missing from Priority: Earth. I agree with you on the last boss for being too easy, but that boss had a purpose: to serve as the final hurdle, and to serve as our accomplishment and triumph. In Priority Earth, that opportunity was absent. The closest thing to an "end boss" was the fight against 5 banshees, which is not that difficult.

And I somewhat agree with you on Collector. I think the backstory for ME2 was a bit weak, and if you look at it in regards to the trilogy, it practically serves no narrative purpose. However, ME2's strong suit was not it's backstory, but rather the main story, which was gathering a team of specialists. On that end, ME2 did very very well.

Also for a suicide mission no one died. I thought I was going to have to pick  and choose between people to live and die like the virmire survivor but no everyone lived. I had to replay it and deliberately make stupid decisions to get people to die (seriously did anyone honestly not pick jack or samara to make the bubble?) and even then the deaths were kinda random.


I think that is because Bioware wants to award the players who have been paying attention to their character's attributes, and not sending Jacob into the vent, as well as putting in the work for the final mission. If you attempt the mission for the first time, without any external information, there is a high possibility someone would die in that attempt. 

I agree the death was kind of random and somewhat unrelated the event itself. But on the other hand, if the consequence is indeed related, it would amount to a "critical mission failure", and the mission would likely restart. That would lose the core competence of the ME trilogy, isn't it?

For reference

Rane7685 wrote...

I really liked Priority Earth it really felt like a war zone. Having to adjust the plan on the fly to take out a hades cannon because the heavy weapons transport went down, followed by final goodbyes to squaddies then having to hold down the fort while I get swarmed with a **** tonne of enemies (much better than that ridiculous human reaper fight in ME2) followed by an epic sprint to the conduit while getting blasted by harbinger. And thats just the narrative. It looked great too with lights blaring alarms going off tanks overturned transports flying in and getting blown out of the sky etc etc

 

I can understand your sentiment of war zone. I think the environment was somewhat well done. However, the gameplay is still incredibly linear, and the mission doesn't really take into account of your teammate. The entire mission is more of a time for you to show off your skill. The lack of war asset that you've spent many hours acquiring them also was a massive disappointment. 

#222
Storin

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leapingmonkeys wrote...

For me, the entire game felt flat - I kept waiting to see some in-game significant effect from my prior decisions, and it just never happened. Then I got to the base in London and suddenly, for no discernible reason, everyone now knows that I am going to die and they're all saying goodbye. It felt completely forced and completely disconnected from the rest of the game. By the time I was hit by the laser at the end I was not surprised nor did I care anymore. It had become so obvious by then that nothing I had done mattered and that Bioware had taken over my Shepard that I just couldn't care. I only played through to the end to see if, by some miracle, they would give back control of Shepard again. Sadly, the answer was "no".



Yeah, there's this, too. It's so fatalistic and depressing. And not in a good way. Just depressing and off-putting.

#223
Storin

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humes spork wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...

I'm fine with the "no victory without sacrifice theme, but near the end that theme became "no victory without a deax ex machina".

To be quite honest, the seeds for deus ex machina were laid in ME1. Why, you might ask?

Lovecraftian horror.

There are two key elements in Lovecraftian horror. One is the antagonists are on such an alien level of existence they are not, and cannot, be exposited. They can't or don't engage the protagonists, ever. The only point of engagement is by proxy. The second is protagonists never win; "success" in Lovecraftian horror is completely reframed as "not a total, apocalyptic, failure".

For obvious reasons, that makes for a ****ty video game. The only franchise I can name offhand that does it with any sense of aplomb, decency, and fidelity is the Silent Hill series (which is, I'll note, merely "psychological horror" opposed to full-stop Lovecraftian horror though the similarities are staggering). When's the last time one of those games made waves in the industry or could be said to be anything beyond a "moderate success"?


I believe you're tremendously overstating the Lovecraftian elements. Mass Effect only ever borrowed certain themes and imagery from this genre. The theme always emphasized humanism and overcoming the odds, which is exactly the opposite of Lovecraft's work. And I'm not even going to touch the amazingly cynical take on Tolkien.

#224
humes spork

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Storin wrote...

I believe you're tremendously overstating the Lovecraftian elements. Mass Effect only ever borrowed certain themes and imagery from this genre. The theme always emphasized humanism and overcoming the odds, which is exactly the opposite of Lovecraft's work.

What I bolded? Those are emphases central to space operas. That it is the opposite of (and in conflict with) Lovecraft's work -- and the present Lovecraftian themes -- is exactly what I just said. And, that ME1-3 represented a backpedaling of Lovecraftian themes used to introduce and characterize the Reapers in favor of space opera themes -- again, exactly what I just said.

Yet, for some reason the writers snapped the Lovecraftian elements back into place in the eleventh hour to somehow preserve Reapers' characterization, and forced deus ex machina to resolve the opposite and conflicting themes. Seriously, you're complaining in other posts the game and its ending are nihilistic, depressing and off-putting, and youre the one saying I'm overstating Lovecraftian elements present in the game's conclusion?

And I'm not even going to touch the amazingly cynical take on Tolkien.

That's probably good, considering that in his correspondence later in life Tolkein himself admitted the eagles were an incredibly dodgy plot device, and promptly handwaved the 64,000-dollar question of why didn't the eagles simply take the One Ring to Mount Doom (why yes, that question hilariously predated the films by more than five decades). A question which, I'll add given Tolkein's signatures and style, strikes to the very credibility of the eucatastrophe as plot device itself.

Source for that is Letter 210, the one sent to Forrest Ackerman in regards to the attempt back in the '50s to adapt LotR to film.

Modifié par humes spork, 29 avril 2012 - 03:30 .


#225
Storin

Storin
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knightnblu wrote...

Normally, I hate games that toss you into the deep end and overrun you every chance that they get like Black Ops, but I believe that the Priority Earth mission really needed that. Earth has been under siege for weeks, concentration camps have been set up to process humans, and the Alliance has nearly been destroyed thus eliminating all resistance. It would have been more realistic if we had to break the Reapers momentum with a few ground missions to rock them back on their heels, but that would have run contrary to BioWare's claim that the Reapers could not be beaten conventionally.
 
With the Alliance sustaining casualties between 80-90%, they could not long survive on the ground prior to the arrival of Hammer. There is nothing worse than marching off into a buzz saw because your survival is more a matter of luck than of skill. But that is exactly what soldiers did on the beaches of Normandy. It is what Grant did to end the American Civil War, and the Russians did the same thing in WWII losing 15 million to combat operations. That loss was the equivalent of the entire standing forces of the U.S. that was fielded during the war. So humanity knows a thing or two about what it takes to win.
 
So we slog through the combat, lose friends, take wounds, and fight for every inch of ground that we can take. We finally arrive at our objective and the enemy just hands us a win. What have you accomplished? What was all of your hard work and sacrifice for? Did you really go through all of that for a freebie? Make it to the Citadel and the enemy just lays down in the road so that the trucks can run over him. Did I accidentally hit the Easy button or something on my way up? Oh right, I forgot that in order to get the freebie I have to commit suicide. Yeah, that makes it all better. Not.
 
Add in the logical flaws, the violation of the natural order of the universe, the violation of all life, the gaping plot holes and presto! You have created the ME3 ending. Small things, like a coherent rank system being absent, you can overlook. But that? Not so much. Because it negates the entire experience of the player who has worked on his character for 5 years at the encouragement of BioWare.
 
BioWare doesn't want a bitter sweet ending, it wants a tragic ending. It wants to set Shepard up in a major Greek tragedy. You struggle against the hubris of the galaxy, you fight the Reapers tooth and nail, your ME1 LI (VS survivor) accuses you of treason, abandons you and very nearly kills you, your homeworld gets taken, you witness billions slaughtered daily, your own kind are actively working against you, you have to fight for each step toward the Citadel and at long last you have to commit suicide. Hell, that's worse than any Greek tragedy that I am familiar with because even Oedipus didn't have it that bad. Well, there is plenty of bitter there. Where's the sweet?
 
You see, that's what got left out of the mix. People don't mind sacrifice if they get something in return. If they don't get something in return that's called masochism. Saving folks I don't know anything about 10k years in the future, or some nebulous concept like "the future" doesn't work all that well because I can't relate to it. What was all of my pain, suffering, and loss for? Who did I do all of that for? Why did I put skin into a zero sum game? The last is the most true of all.
 
The question of "what do I get out of it?" is the most important one of all and BioWare never answers that question with the ME3 ending. They take it from the "well, you're dead, so what do you care" perspective. But the problem is that there is an afterlife in the Mass Effect universe and that afterlife is the player who stalks these very boards like some mean ghost demanding answers.
 
Which is where we find ourselves today. But worry not, there is DLC being prepared to 'clarify' the train wreck that we just lived through so that we can see it in all of its glory and magnificence. However, they have never explained how seeing a flawed concept in a brand new light and sharp focus is any better than seeing it in dim light and poor focus.
 
I think that we could have won this conventionally and that we should have won this conventionally. We didn't need a crucible or a catalyst. We needed blood, and bone, and muscle coupled with an indomitable will. Did you see the fleet that jumped into Sol? The combined military might of the entire galaxy just dropped into the Sol system and I will guarantee you that that has never happened to the Reapers before. That was the key point that was somehow missed because tactics, strategy, and leveraging species abilities are all force multipliers and that places us on equal ground with the Reapers.
 
We didn't get the same feeling that we got from ME1 or ME2 because we were denied such a victory.


I think this is probably the best explanation of the problems with the ending (aside from the plot holes and illogic) I've yet read.


humes spork wrote...

Storin wrote...

I believe you're tremendously overstating the Lovecraftian elements. Mass Effect only ever borrowed certain themes and imagery from this genre. The theme always emphasized humanism and overcoming the odds, which is exactly the opposite of Lovecraft's work.

What I bolded? Those are emphases central to space operas. That it is the opposite of (and in conflict with) Lovecraft's work -- and the present Lovecraftian themes -- is exactly what I just said. And, that ME1-3 represented a backpedaling of Lovecraftian themes used to introduce and characterize the Reapers in favor of space opera themes -- again, exactly what I just said.

Yet, for some reason the writers snapped the Lovecraftian elements back into place in the eleventh hour to somehow preserve Reapers' characterization, and forced deus ex machina to resolve the opposite and conflicting themes. Seriously, you're complaining in other posts the game and its ending are nihilistic, depressing and off-putting, and youre the one saying I'm understating Lovecraftian elements present in the game's conclusion?
 


Actually, I said you were overstating, not understating.  Anyway, doesn't matter, I misread part of your post. Sorry.

I think that is because Bioware wants to award the players who have been paying attention to their character's attributes, and not sending Jacob into the vent, as well as putting in the work for the final mission. If you attempt the mission for the first time, without any external information, there is a high possibility someone would die in that attempt.


My first time through, Grunt died. My second time through, Zaeed and Mordin died. Getting everyone through on my third playthrough felt like a big accomplishment. I miss that in this game.

Modifié par Storin, 29 avril 2012 - 03:34 .