218 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

My main two problems with the theory are firstly that it means the game was released unfinished. Bioware seem to be surprised at having to make the EC, and when the devs cam in to disprove the recent 'leak' of the EC story they claimed that they had barely started it. If the IT was true, then they'd have already been planning the EC, but the evidence seems to point to the contrary.

And secondly, the game outright tells you at the end that Commander Shepard has ended the Reaper threat.

Not:
-Shepard will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Someone else will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Some new civilization will use Liara's beacons to end the Reaper threat

In the context of what we just saw and played, the Reaper threat was ended by Shepard. This would simply be untrue if the IT were true, and if you have to ignore what the game is directly and explicitly telling the player in order for you theory to be true, then there must be something wrong with it.


I kind of agree that the IT could be possible - i.e. there is some evidence that lends it credence and it could be implemented in a DLC and fit in well enough with the story, but it clearly wasn't planned from the start.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 22 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[DOCTOR CHA0TICA]

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Just watched that bit.... I thought the VI looked at Shep as he said it.... but he didnt!! 

Still, I so wanna believe IT!

[CavScout]

DJBare wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why would anyone actually want to discuss something on a discussion board. It's madness, pure madness.....

But you are not discussing, all your posts consist of refuting IT without any backup, at least others against IT do add substance to their posts, your posts boil down to "you are wrong"

On does not prove a negative.

[KingZayd]

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Because indoctrination isn't a discrete On/Off variable. It is continuous. The reaper taint in Shepard's mind had not grown strong enough at that point to be detected.  Bear in mind too, that the Prothean Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated individuals. This suggests that the Prothean indoctrination detectors were not perfect.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

DJBare wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why would anyone actually want to discuss something on a discussion board. It's madness, pure madness.....

But you are not discussing, all your posts consist of refuting IT without any backup, at least others against IT do add substance to their posts, your posts boil down to "you are wrong"

On does not prove a negative.

That doesn't seem to stop you from trying, if you keep doing the same thing  expecting different results, that's a symptom of insanity. just so you know.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

If you keep asking the same question, why don't you ever retain the answer? Shepard wasn't indoctrinated at that time. The VI's can't detect all indoctrination.

[tractrpl]

DOCTOR CHA0TICA wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Just watched that bit.... I thought the VI looked at Shep as he said it.... but he didnt!! 

Still, I so wanna believe IT!

It doesn't matter if he looked at Shep or not, he didn't say anything about detecting any indoctrination until Kai Leng showed up. This means that no one on Sheps squad, including Shep is indoctrinated.

I understand wanting to believe IT, hell it could work, maybe we can say that what we're seeing at the end was the Reapers attempts at INITIAL indoctrination. However, this is a stretch. Incorporating IT in the EC might be good, but that doesn't mean that IT is what BW originally intended. From all the evidence, it's pretty clear that BW did not intend for IT to be the original ending. However, they may include it to make us happy. Also, completely scrapping the ending might make us happy.

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

DJBare wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why would anyone actually want to discuss something on a discussion board. It's madness, pure madness.....

But you are not discussing, all your posts consist of refuting IT without any backup, at least others against IT do add substance to their posts, your posts boil down to "you are wrong"

On does not prove a negative.

That doesn't seem to stop you from trying, if you keep doing the same thing  expecting different results, that's a symptom of insanity. just so you know.

Name calling, you have to love it.

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

My main two problems with the theory are firstly that it means the game was released unfinished. Bioware seem to be surprised at having to make the EC, and when the devs cam in to disprove the recent 'leak' of the EC story they claimed that they had barely started it. If the IT was true, then they'd have already been planning the EC, but the evidence seems to point to the contrary.

And secondly, the game outright tells you at the end that Commander Shepard has ended the Reaper threat.

Not:
-Shepard will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Someone else will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Some new civilization will use Liara's beacons to end the Reaper threat

In the context of what we just saw and played, the Reaper threat was ended by Shepard. This would simply be untrue if the IT were true, and if you have to ignore what the game is directly and explicitly telling the player in order for you theory to be true, then there must be something wrong with it.


I kind of agree that the IT could be possible - i.e. there is some evidence that lends it credence and it could be implemented in a DLC and fit in well enough with the story, but it clearly wasn't planned from the start.

If the "fake" endings (as i truly hope they are) satisfied the majority of players, then Bioware would have been free to work on the DLC in their own time, and drop the surprise twist on us later. Those who suspected indoctrination, would have probably remained a tiny minority. Bear in mind that the game was only released about 6 weeks ago. They probably expected they'd be able to have a break?

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

DJBare wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why would anyone actually want to discuss something on a discussion board. It's madness, pure madness.....

But you are not discussing, all your posts consist of refuting IT without any backup, at least others against IT do add substance to their posts, your posts boil down to "you are wrong"

On does not prove a negative.

That doesn't seem to stop you from trying, if you keep doing the same thing  expecting different results, that's a symptom of insanity. just so you know.

Name calling, you have to love it.

And yet you likened us to people seeing Jesus in a piece of toast. Hypocritical much?

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 03:53 .

[Candidate 88766]

KingZayd wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Because indoctrination isn't a discrete On/Off variable. It is continuous. The reaper taint in Shepard's mind had not grown strong enough at that point to be detected.  Bear in mind too, that the Prothean Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated individuals. This suggests that the Prothean indoctrination detectors were not perfect.

But if indoctrination is so weak on Thessia, then how can Shepard suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis?

It takes time. You don't go from undetectably indoctrinated to fully indoctrinated just like that.

The IT contradicts itself:

If Shepard goes into the endings with a weak taint, then how can he suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control/synthesis?

If Shepard goes into the endings with a strong taint, how does choosing destroy magically allow him to break free when indoctrination is permanent, and how did the VI not notice?

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

DJBare wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why would anyone actually want to discuss something on a discussion board. It's madness, pure madness.....

But you are not discussing, all your posts consist of refuting IT without any backup, at least others against IT do add substance to their posts, your posts boil down to "you are wrong"

On does not prove a negative.

That doesn't seem to stop you from trying, if you keep doing the same thing  expecting different results, that's a symptom of insanity. just so you know.

Name calling, you have to love it.

WAH! You're on the internet. Either bring along a convincing argument or stance, or be prepared to be ridiculed.

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Because indoctrination isn't a discrete On/Off variable. It is continuous. The reaper taint in Shepard's mind had not grown strong enough at that point to be detected.  Bear in mind too, that the Prothean Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated individuals. This suggests that the Prothean indoctrination detectors were not perfect.

But if indoctrination is so weak on Thessia, then how can Shepard suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis?

It takes time. You don't go from undetectably indoctrinated to fully indoctrinated just like that.

The IT contradicts itself:

If Shepard goes into the endings with a weak taint, then how can he suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control/synthesis?

If Shepard goes into the endings with a strong taint, how does choosing destroy magically allow him to break free when indoctrination is permanent, and how did the VI not notice?

I imagine getting blasted near to death by Harbinger helps a lot. Mental barriers (and Shepard clearly has strong ones) have a limit.

He doesn't magically break free of indoctrination. He resists.. this time. It is only fleeting. He like everyone else who resists indoctrination will still cave eventually.

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[DJBare]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And secondly, the game outright tells you at the end that Commander Shepard has ended the Reaper threat.

Yes it did, but that does not mean IT was never slated to be in the game, remember the cutting room floor?, that's where the trial ended up and where I believe IT ended up.

[Candidate 88766]

KingZayd wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

My main two problems with the theory are firstly that it means the game was released unfinished. Bioware seem to be surprised at having to make the EC, and when the devs cam in to disprove the recent 'leak' of the EC story they claimed that they had barely started it. If the IT was true, then they'd have already been planning the EC, but the evidence seems to point to the contrary.

And secondly, the game outright tells you at the end that Commander Shepard has ended the Reaper threat.

Not:
-Shepard will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Someone else will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Some new civilization will use Liara's beacons to end the Reaper threat

In the context of what we just saw and played, the Reaper threat was ended by Shepard. This would simply be untrue if the IT were true, and if you have to ignore what the game is directly and explicitly telling the player in order for you theory to be true, then there must be something wrong with it.


I kind of agree that the IT could be possible - i.e. there is some evidence that lends it credence and it could be implemented in a DLC and fit in well enough with the story, but it clearly wasn't planned from the start.

If the "fake" endings (as i truly hope they are) satisfied the majority of players, then Bioware would have been free to work on the DLC in their own time, and drop the surprise twist on us later. Those who suspected indoctrination, would have probably remained a tiny minority. Bear in mind that the game was only released about 6 weeks ago. They probably expected they'd be able to have a break?

But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

You don't need to show the confrontation with TIM, or Anderson's death, or the defeat of the Reapers in order to show Shepard fighting indoctrination, so why make fake versions of them?

And they aren't just going to 'take a break'. You don't release the concluding part of a story-based trilogy without its conclusion and then just take a break before bothering to make the conclusion.

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...
WAH! You're on the internet. Either bring along a convincing argument or stance, or be prepared to be ridiculed.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about IT.

[DOCTOR CHA0TICA]

Still a firm believer..... maybe I'm Indoctrinated?!

I think I want IT to be true....

[Candidate 88766]

DJBare wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And secondly, the game outright tells you at the end that Commander Shepard has ended the Reaper threat.

Yes it did, but that does not mean IT was never slated to be in the game, remember the cutting room floor?, that's where the trial ended up and where I believe IT ended up.

It may have been slated, but its obviously not canon. The dark energy plotline was originally intended, as ME2 showed, but that was cut.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Because indoctrination isn't a discrete On/Off variable. It is continuous. The reaper taint in Shepard's mind had not grown strong enough at that point to be detected.  Bear in mind too, that the Prothean Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated individuals. This suggests that the Prothean indoctrination detectors were not perfect.

But if indoctrination is so weak on Thessia, then how can Shepard suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis?

It takes time. You don't go from undetectably indoctrinated to fully indoctrinated just like that.

The IT contradicts itself:

If Shepard goes into the endings with a weak taint, then how can he suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control/synthesis?

If Shepard goes into the endings with a strong taint, how does choosing destroy magically allow him to break free when indoctrination is permanent, and how did the VI not notice?

If you look at the codex it says that indoctrination speed is variable depending on the what the reaper wants. Harbinger was right there next to Shep at the end, the process sped up but Shep can resist one last time.

Modifié par balance5050, 22 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[tractrpl]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

[ryuasiu]

KingZayd wrote...

me too, but i think the Earthchild's actually real, and not part of the indoctrination itself.

I think he was real when we first see him playing. Everything after that is pretty debatable. If you go back and play through that level and keep an eye on the locked door you run into, the boy runs through it. It could be indoc and thats how he could be going through the lock door, or it could be a graphical glich and is not supposed to lock till AFTER the boy runs in. Either case I am 100% sure he is dead after the building is hit by the reaper beam. I doubt the duct saved him from that.

[DJBare]

Candidate 88766 wrote...]

But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

If they had gone on with the idea there would have been two parts, "IT" followed by "Reality"; I believe they ran out of time and they certainly could not end a game on an illusion.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
WAH! You're on the internet. Either bring along a convincing argument or stance, or be prepared to be ridiculed.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about IT.

Already did. You didn't notice the 1500 page thread?

[Candidate 88766]

KingZayd wrote...

I imagine getting blasted near to death by Harbinger helps a lot. Mental barriers (and Shepard clearly has strong ones) have a limit.

He doesn't magically break free of indoctrination. He resists.. this time. It is only fleeting. He like everyone else who resists indoctrination will still cave eventually.

Mental barriers have nothing to do with it.

From the codex:

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 

Mental barriers can't stop EM fields or ultrasonic noise.

And as for resisting it, everytime we've seen someone trying to resist indoctrination they can barely control themselves. Saren, who Sovereign allowed to keep a lot of control over his own mind, could barely bring himself to raise his gun. So even if Shepard tries to resist it, he's not going to be able to do anything to stop the Reapers, unless the indoctrination is low, in which case control and synthesis don't lead to him becoming fully indoctrinated and the IT is wrong.

[tractrpl]

DOCTOR CHA0TICA wrote...

Still a firm believer..... maybe I'm Indoctrinated?!

I think I want IT to be true....

Yes. That's what IT is all about. It's not about whether IT was originally part of the game, it's about hating the ending so much that the fans gave BW a creative way out to totally scrap the enings without having to actually scrap the ending. You can just pick up where we left off by waking up, killing Marauder Shields again, and doing a real ending with no Starbrat.