218 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Because indoctrination isn't a discrete On/Off variable. It is continuous. The reaper taint in Shepard's mind had not grown strong enough at that point to be detected.  Bear in mind too, that the Prothean Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated individuals. This suggests that the Prothean indoctrination detectors were not perfect.

But if indoctrination is so weak on Thessia, then how can Shepard suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis?

It takes time. You don't go from undetectably indoctrinated to fully indoctrinated just like that.

The IT contradicts itself:

If Shepard goes into the endings with a weak taint, then how can he suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control/synthesis?

If Shepard goes into the endings with a strong taint, how does choosing destroy magically allow him to break free when indoctrination is permanent, and how did the VI not notice?

If you look at the codex it says that indoctrination speed is variable depending on the what the reaper wants. Harbinger was right there next to Shep at the end, the process sped up but Shep can resist one last time.

The rapid indoctrination doesn't take a few minutes, it still takes days. Otherwise the whole of Earth's urban-based population would've been harvested in a matter of hours.

[Candidate 88766]

DJBare wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...]

But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

If they had gone on with the idea there would have been two parts, "IT" followed by "Reality"; I believe they ran out of time and they certainly could not end a game on an illusion.

Then I think we're arguing the same point - IT, regardless of whether it was once intended, isn't currently canon.

[DOCTOR CHA0TICA]

after I finished the game, I re-loaded to Cerberus Base Assault... and left it there!! lol!

doing a paragon playthrough, and I'll leave that save there too!!

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

Final Hours APP says that in November they were experimenting with a fully indoctrinated Shepard. The game wen tgold 2 months later. It was originally planned at one point or another, and still could be.

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...

Already did. You didn't notice the 1500 page thread?

As someone who's debated creationists can tell you from personal experience, saying something repeatedly over and over again and with loud insistence does not make something correct.

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

My main two problems with the theory are firstly that it means the game was released unfinished. Bioware seem to be surprised at having to make the EC, and when the devs cam in to disprove the recent 'leak' of the EC story they claimed that they had barely started it. If the IT was true, then they'd have already been planning the EC, but the evidence seems to point to the contrary.

And secondly, the game outright tells you at the end that Commander Shepard has ended the Reaper threat.

Not:
-Shepard will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Someone else will go on to end the Reaper threat
-Some new civilization will use Liara's beacons to end the Reaper threat

In the context of what we just saw and played, the Reaper threat was ended by Shepard. This would simply be untrue if the IT were true, and if you have to ignore what the game is directly and explicitly telling the player in order for you theory to be true, then there must be something wrong with it.


I kind of agree that the IT could be possible - i.e. there is some evidence that lends it credence and it could be implemented in a DLC and fit in well enough with the story, but it clearly wasn't planned from the start.

If the "fake" endings (as i truly hope they are) satisfied the majority of players, then Bioware would have been free to work on the DLC in their own time, and drop the surprise twist on us later. Those who suspected indoctrination, would have probably remained a tiny minority. Bear in mind that the game was only released about 6 weeks ago. They probably expected they'd be able to have a break?

But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

You don't need to show the confrontation with TIM, or Anderson's death, or the defeat of the Reapers in order to show Shepard fighting indoctrination, so why make fake versions of them?

And they aren't just going to 'take a break'. You don't release the concluding part of a story-based trilogy without its conclusion and then just take a break before bothering to make the conclusion.

Because the effect is different. Bioware have had problem with leaks before, and they likely wanted to prevent spoilers. Having people who finished earlier and announcing "It's indoctrination!" to everyone who can hear it, would massively diminish the impact. The Confrontration with TIM serves as an interesting prelude to the choice. If you pick the renegade options, TIM tells you that he "needs you to believe". It could be that TIM is the first major attempt by the reaper taint to sway you, and Anderson represents the part of you that fights it.

TIM (in this scene, whether real or not) like Saren doesn't realise he's indoctrinated until he's been told... neither does Shepard. Anderson's death is powerful and hurts Shepard, strengthening indoctrination.

Episodic content is not a new thing. The logical way to deliver a twist of this nature is with a secret DLC.

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

If Shep was indoctrinated, why didn't the Prothean VI on thessia identify him as such? It identified TIM and Kai Leng as indoctrinated. IT might be better than the ending we're given, but it's not the true ending.

Because indoctrination isn't a discrete On/Off variable. It is continuous. The reaper taint in Shepard's mind had not grown strong enough at that point to be detected.  Bear in mind too, that the Prothean Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated individuals. This suggests that the Prothean indoctrination detectors were not perfect.

But if indoctrination is so weak on Thessia, then how can Shepard suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis?

It takes time. You don't go from undetectably indoctrinated to fully indoctrinated just like that.

The IT contradicts itself:

If Shepard goes into the endings with a weak taint, then how can he suddenly become fully indoctrinated by choosing control/synthesis?

If Shepard goes into the endings with a strong taint, how does choosing destroy magically allow him to break free when indoctrination is permanent, and how did the VI not notice?

If you look at the codex it says that indoctrination speed is variable depending on the what the reaper wants. Harbinger was right there next to Shep at the end, the process sped up but Shep can resist one last time.

The rapid indoctrination doesn't take a few minutes, it still takes days. Otherwise the whole of Earth's urban-based population would've been harvested in a matter of hours.

It only takes days if the subject hasn't already been in contact with Reaper tech, Shep only needed that extra nudge.

[DJBare]

Candidate 88766 wrote...The rapid indoctrination doesn't take a few minutes, it still takes days. Otherwise the whole of Earth's urban-based population would've been harvested in a matter of hours.

Think this will need to be checked, in ME1 after witnessing the video of the attack of Eden Prime in ME1 Jokers states they are something like 30 minutes out from Eden Prime, I'd say those husks were rapidly indoctrinated colonists wouldn't you?

Modifié par DJBare, 22 avril 2012 - 04:05 .

[ryuasiu]

tractrpl wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

   Actually read the final hours of mass effect app. Indoc was the orginally to be the ending but they scraped it becuase they could not think of a good way to do the conversations or make it into the gameplay. The question at this point is if they fully scrapped it for what we got or if they left it open to come back to it, either in a new game or DLC.

   If you look at their statements they were so high on themselves (or maybe just to tired to think after working so hard on the game) that it was aparent from their statements the did not expect the backlash. We will have to see what happens when the DLC comes out

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

Final Hours APP says that in November they were experimenting with a fully indoctrinated Shepard. The game wen tgold 2 months later. It was originally planned at one point or another, and still could be.

Yes, it could, but its clearly not canon atm. Thats what I am and most other people against the IT are arguing.

I have no problem with people who want it to be true. There is some stuff that lends it credence and it is arguably better than the real endings. Its clearly possible in the game's lore.

However, I don't understand how people believe that Bioware intended the IT from the start and that it is actually the currently intended canon.

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

Final Hours APP says that in November they were experimenting with a fully indoctrinated Shepard. The game wen tgold 2 months later. It was originally planned at one point or another, and still could be.

I seriously don't think they'd want to risk alienating their fanbase and dropping their stock like a ton of bricks for an artistically compelling shocker. If Shep's indoctrination was originally part of the game, then overcoming that indoctrination would have been part of the ending as released as the full game.

Modifié par tractrpl, 22 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[Stalker]

IT is indeed feasible, but I doubt that after all this controversy and critics, BioWare really had the intention of such a bad ending. They would have simply replied different to this fan-outcry. Someone would have said "Wait guys, we have something in work. Don't worry", not "We believe into the artistic vision of the team, but we will clarify it for you"

Anyhow, the only hope I still have:
The Extended Cut won't make any sense without IT. A closure to such a huge pile of junk is simply idiotic.
What are they supposed to say? "Then They got off the jungle planet", "They rebuilt the Mass Relays", "Sheapard survived when the Citadel crashed on Earth"? All of this would only open more plot-holes and senselessness to what we already have.

[Candidate 88766]

DJBare wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...The rapid indoctrination doesn't take a few minutes, it still takes days. Otherwise the whole of Earth's urban-based population would've been harvested in a matter of hours.

Think this will need to be checked, in ME1 after witnessing the video of the attack of Eden Prime in ME1 Jokers states they are something like 30 minutes out from Eden Prime, I'd say those husks were rapidly indoctrinated colonists wouldn't you?

Husk indoctrination is very different:

Husks are the aggressive, mindless foot soldiers of the Reaper armies. They are created by impaling either living or dead humans on mechanical spikes that rapidly extract water and trace minerals and replace them with cybernetics. These cybernetics reanimate the lifeless flesh and tissue, transforming the bodies into horrifying killing machines.The Reapers use large groups of husks to overwhelm the enemy. The husks' inability to feel pain, as well as their tendency to attack in groups, makes them particularly deadly adversaries.

They don't have to be indoctrinated to be husks - the cybernetics replace the organic brain anyway, so it doesn't matter if the subject was willingly serving the Reapers or not.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Already did. You didn't notice the 1500 page thread?

As someone who's debated creationists can tell you from personal experience, saying something repeatedly over and over again and with loud insistence does not make something correct.

Most astronomers agree that it's simply remarkable how solar systems and and clusters are laid out as if there was a quick flash of creativity at the point of energy known as the big bang.

Einstein-

"The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres." 

Basically what I'm saying is that only Siths deal in absolutes my friend.      
 

[KingZayd]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

Final Hours APP says that in November they were experimenting with a fully indoctrinated Shepard. The game wen tgold 2 months later. It was originally planned at one point or another, and still could be.

I seriously don't think they'd want to risk alienating their fanbase and dropping their stock like a ton of bricks for an artistically compelling shocker. If Shep's indoctrination was originally part of the game, then overcoming that indoctrination would have been part of the ending as released as the full game.

LOL. With or without IT, this is what they've done (intended, the fact that the face value ending isn't compelling in the slightest is irrelevent to your point)

[Candidate 88766]

tractrpl wrote...
I seriously don't think they'd want to risk alienating their fanbase and dropping their stock like a ton of bricks for an artistically compelling shocker. If Shep's indoctrination was originally part of the game, then overcoming that indoctrination would have been part of the ending as released as the full game.

Exactly. All the effort into making the 'fake' endings could've been spent on an ending that showed Shepard breaking free of indoctrination and beating the Reapers. 

Why make fake versions of the TIM confrontation, Anderson's death and the Reapers' end when you'd then later have to make another version of each for the 'real' endings?

It massively increases the workload, and severely reduces the emotional impact of the scenes if you see them twice in such a short space of time.

Even if the IT is true, these scenes don't need to be there and the fact that they are points to the more obvious conclusion that the endings were real.

[ryuasiu]

DJBare wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...The rapid indoctrination doesn't take a few minutes, it still takes days. Otherwise the whole of Earth's urban-based population would've been harvested in a matter of hours.

Think this will need to be checked, in ME1 after witnessing the video of the attack of Eden Prime in ME1 Jokers states they are something like 30 minutes out from Eden Prime, I'd say those husks were rapidly indoctrinated colonists wouldn't you?

Husks are not indoc, rather transformed into husks by the dragon's teeth. Indoc is the process of the reapers forcing people to their side and way of thinking. If you read the ME1 codex on it, it explains that it can take days, weeks, or years depending how much the reapers want you retained. The indoc of Sarien took years for example.

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Already did. You didn't notice the 1500 page thread?

As someone who's debated creationists can tell you from personal experience, saying something repeatedly over and over again and with loud insistence does not make something correct.

Most astronomers agree that it's simply remarkable how solar systems and and clusters are laid out as if there was a quick flash of creativity at the point of energy known as the big bang.

Einstein-

"The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres." 

Basically what I'm saying is that only Siths deal in absolutes my friend.      
 

Most astronomers? LOL, it doesn't surprise me that you're a creationist, dude, somehow it really doesn't.

[DJBare]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...]

But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

If they had gone on with the idea there would have been two parts, "IT" followed by "Reality"; I believe they ran out of time and they certainly could not end a game on an illusion.

Then I think we're arguing the same point - IT, regardless of whether it was once intended, isn't currently canon.

I've never seen anyone say it was canon, but it certainly was the plan in the final hours apps.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
But why make the fake endings in the first place when the time spent on that could instead have been spent on the 'real' endings?

This.  Most convincing argument against IT. Even IT people agree with it. It means that IT is something PEOPLE WANT in the game, but IT is not ORIGINALLY MEANT TO BE PART of the game.

Final Hours APP says that in November they were experimenting with a fully indoctrinated Shepard. The game wen tgold 2 months later. It was originally planned at one point or another, and still could be.

Yes, it could, but its clearly not canon atm. Thats what I am and most other people against the IT are arguing.

I have no problem with people who want it to be true. There is some stuff that lends it credence and it is arguably better than the real endings. Its clearly possible in the game's lore.

However, I don't understand how people believe that Bioware intended the IT from the start and that it is actually the currently intended canon.

Well, Bioware intended for us to derive and perceive different things from the endings, that's why they were so vague. So I'm sure that I.T. is an acceptable perception, and it's cannon for 1000s of players.

A million  things can be derived from the "different" endings at face value, Bioware would never shoot down someones cannon unless it directly interferes with pre established rules, which it doesn't.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Already did. You didn't notice the 1500 page thread?

As someone who's debated creationists can tell you from personal experience, saying something repeatedly over and over again and with loud insistence does not make something correct.

Most astronomers agree that it's simply remarkable how solar systems and and clusters are laid out as if there was a quick flash of creativity at the point of energy known as the big bang.

Einstein-

"The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres." 

Basically what I'm saying is that only Siths deal in absolutes my friend.      
 

Most astronomers? LOL, it doesn't surprise me that you're a creationist, dude, somehow it really doesn't.

That's weird cause I'm an Atheist, I'm just really good at seeing things from both sides.

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...
I seriously don't think they'd want to risk alienating their fanbase and dropping their stock like a ton of bricks for an artistically compelling shocker. If Shep's indoctrination was originally part of the game, then overcoming that indoctrination would have been part of the ending as released as the full game.

Exactly. All the effort into making the 'fake' endings could've been spent on an ending that showed Shepard breaking free of indoctrination and beating the Reapers. 

Why make fake versions of the TIM confrontation, Anderson's death and the Reapers' end when you'd then later have to make another version of each for the 'real' endings?

It massively increases the workload, and severely reduces the emotional impact of the scenes if you see them twice in such a short space of time.

Even if the IT is true, these scenes don't need to be there and the fact that they are points to the more obvious conclusion that the endings were real.

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 04:17 .

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Well, Bioware intended for us to derive and perceive different things from the endings, that's why they were so vague. So I'm sure that I.T. is an acceptable perception, and it's cannon for 1000s of players.

A million  things can be derived from the "different" endings at face value, Bioware would never shoot down someones cannon unless it directly interferes with pre established rules, which it doesn't.

I agree that Bioware wanted to encourage speculation - they've come out and said as much. And it would be a sad day indeed if people stopped introducing a bit of their own imagination into the stories they're told.

I have no problem whatsoever with people who consider the IT to be their personal canon. There is some evidence for it, most people think its better than the real endings, and because so many people believe it it feels more 'real'.

But I just dont' believe that its the interpretation Bioware originall wanted players to make. There's too much against the IT for me to believe that it is what Bioware intended, and I don't really get why people think otherwise. I get that people want the IT to be true, but to actually believe that Bioware released it unfinished and to believe that the game outright lies to the player at the end baffles me.

[balance5050]

KingZayd wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...
I seriously don't think they'd want to risk alienating their fanbase and dropping their stock like a ton of bricks for an artistically compelling shocker. If Shep's indoctrination was originally part of the game, then overcoming that indoctrination would have been part of the ending as released as the full game.

Exactly. All the effort into making the 'fake' endings could've been spent on an ending that showed Shepard breaking free of indoctrination and beating the Reapers. 

Why make fake versions of the TIM confrontation, Anderson's death and the Reapers' end when you'd then later have to make another version of each for the 'real' endings?

It massively increases the workload, and severely reduces the emotional impact of the scenes if you see them twice in such a short space of time.

Even if the IT is true, these scenes don't need to be there and the fact that they are points to the more obvious conclusion that the endings were real.

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...

That's weird cause I'm an Atheist, I'm just really good at seeing things from both sides.

Ok, good then. I misinterpreted what you were saying, but I'd strongly argue against that "most astronomers" case, seeing that I know some astronomers personally, since I minored in Physics in college.

As for me, I do look at both sides of the argument. I'm not going to say that IT isn't compelling, hell, I'll even give that it makes more sense than Starbrat, I just don't believe that it was intended as part of the ending. Perhaps they toyed with it, then cut it, but left some of its elements in there, which makes it plausible for them to reinsert it. However, I highly doubt that they will.