218 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

KingZayd wrote...

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

But why go to the effort of making Anderson's death so emotional for the player if you're then going to say it was all fake and that he died off-camera?

For that matter, why kill the same character twice in such a short time period? The first time around, Anderson's death will be emotional for the player but upon finding out its fake and then finding out he's actually dead won't invoke any response other than confusion.

From a storytelling point of view it makes less sense than the actual endings.

[The Milky Waver]

Grimgaww wrote...

I'm sure that the extended cut will going to explain us about shepard
being indocrinated. If not i don't see how Bioware get them self out trying to explain us what's really going on.
What ever you read watch or think the catalyst scene cannot be part of the
game because  if it is, try to explain it without saying Shepard is
indocrinated.
The whole catalyst twist with the three options was artistically/emotionally amazing but it
 just doesn't fit ME series.

If Bioware will go with the indoctination theory (which i'm sure they are)  it will be more stupid than it already is.
Why? Because they will need to change also ME1&2 to make it reasonable.

The whole idea of this ending was to leave it with plots and questions so we'll buy the DLC
for the answers. I think Bioware got the oposite with this ending.

Exlain to me why the other two games would need to be changed. Shepard has been in conctact with reaper tech and indoctrinated people for years, including Saren (who was a combination of the two), Matriarch Benezia (she was in and out of indoctrination), the collectors (aka rothean husks), a derelict reaper (which he boarded), cerberus troopers (who are made with reaper tech), Kai Leng, husks, cannibals, marauders, banshees, brutes, and countless more artifacts. Doesn't it make sense for Shepard to become vulnerable to at least mild inidoctrination? 

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

[refuse81]

I don't like this theory.

- To me it's a coping mechanism, finding 'clues' everywhere to explain plot holes, as if Bioware intended us to do it. Reading 'it's the only thing that makes sense' is quite common. I think the ending was just so badly written and contrived some had to invent a new way to interpret the entire game.

- Wherever it supposedly 'cover' a plot hole, it creates a new one. What happened to the Illusive man if the one we meet in the "Citadel Indoctrination Scene" isn't real? We fight Cerberus and then poof he disappears? If indoctrination is what really happened, I'm even more infuriated about the result of the ending. I was treated with a dream, the Reapers are still killing everything and the game has no ending.

- It means the 'Extended Cut' DLC will not answer any questions, my fears about this were reinforced when they called the theory 'um, creative. at PAX, then went on to neither confirm or deny it. So they will keep this crap up with the DLC, since denying IT is true will cause another ****storm. We will get more speculation than ever, it seems.

These are just a few of my concerns. I am in no way saying I know more than anyone else or that your opinion is invalid, this is what i feel about the whole thing.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, Bioware intended for us to derive and perceive different things from the endings, that's why they were so vague. So I'm sure that I.T. is an acceptable perception, and it's cannon for 1000s of players.

A million  things can be derived from the "different" endings at face value, Bioware would never shoot down someones cannon unless it directly interferes with pre established rules, which it doesn't.

I agree that Bioware wanted to encourage speculation - they've come out and said as much. And it would be a sad day indeed if people stopped introducing a bit of their own imagination into the stories they're told.

I have no problem whatsoever with people who consider the IT to be their personal canon. There is some evidence for it, most people think its better than the real endings, and because so many people believe it it feels more 'real'.

But I just dont' believe that its the interpretation Bioware originall wanted players to make. There's too much against the IT for me to believe that it is what Bioware intended, and I don't really get why people think otherwise. I get that people want the IT to be true, but to actually believe that Bioware released it unfinished and to believe that the game outright lies to the player at the end baffles me.

And now we get to the good stuff! Are you telling me you beleive what the Star brat is telling you?

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

? What are you talking about? It came out before the game came out and it was mostly accurate except for the ending. Not fake.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, Bioware intended for us to derive and perceive different things from the endings, that's why they were so vague. So I'm sure that I.T. is an acceptable perception, and it's cannon for 1000s of players.

A million  things can be derived from the "different" endings at face value, Bioware would never shoot down someones cannon unless it directly interferes with pre established rules, which it doesn't.

I agree that Bioware wanted to encourage speculation - they've come out and said as much. And it would be a sad day indeed if people stopped introducing a bit of their own imagination into the stories they're told.

I have no problem whatsoever with people who consider the IT to be their personal canon. There is some evidence for it, most people think its better than the real endings, and because so many people believe it it feels more 'real'.

But I just dont' believe that its the interpretation Bioware originall wanted players to make. There's too much against the IT for me to believe that it is what Bioware intended, and I don't really get why people think otherwise. I get that people want the IT to be true, but to actually believe that Bioware released it unfinished and to believe that the game outright lies to the player at the end baffles me.

And now we get to the good stuff! Are you telling me you beleive what the Star brat is telling you?

Not really.

Bioware clearly intended for it to be true (why write it otherwise?) but it contradicts the rest of the trilogy (synthetics have been shown, repeatedly, to get along with organics sometimes and that peace is possible).

Not sure what relevance this has to the IT. Not believing the Catalyst doesn't make the IT any more plausible.

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

But why go to the effort of making Anderson's death so emotional for the player if you're then going to say it was all fake and that he died off-camera?

For that matter, why kill the same character twice in such a short time period? The first time around, Anderson's death will be emotional for the player but upon finding out its fake and then finding out he's actually dead won't invoke any response other than confusion.

From a storytelling point of view it makes less sense than the actual endings.

Ingame: Emotional death of Anderson actually strengthens indoctrination.
"This hurts you."  
Storytelling: Also gives Shepard the opportunity to say goodbye, that he wouldn't normally get.


If they've woken up in London and they see the dead bodies then that's not really confusing at all. 

We killed Saren twice at the end of mass effect 1

[tractrpl]

I believe Starbrat is a product of bad writing. Even BW makes mistakes. I mean, I still can't get into SWTOR and I had to push myself to play through DA: origins, and forget about DA2.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

? What are you talking about? It came out before the game came out and it was mostly accurate except for the ending. Not fake.

What, you mean the script of the main bulk of ME3? I thought you meant the supposed leak of the EC. My bad.

That scene from the script clearly changed, because Anderson died in ME3. 

The script makes no mention at all of the IT, so bringing it up weakens your own argument.

[ryuasiu]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, Bioware intended for us to derive and perceive different things from the endings, that's why they were so vague. So I'm sure that I.T. is an acceptable perception, and it's cannon for 1000s of players.

A million  things can be derived from the "different" endings at face value, Bioware would never shoot down someones cannon unless it directly interferes with pre established rules, which it doesn't.

I agree that Bioware wanted to encourage speculation - they've come out and said as much. And it would be a sad day indeed if people stopped introducing a bit of their own imagination into the stories they're told.

I have no problem whatsoever with people who consider the IT to be their personal canon. There is some evidence for it, most people think its better than the real endings, and because so many people believe it it feels more 'real'.

But I just dont' believe that its the interpretation Bioware originall wanted players to make. There's too much against the IT for me to believe that it is what Bioware intended, and I don't really get why people think otherwise. I get that people want the IT to be true, but to actually believe that Bioware released it unfinished and to believe that the game outright lies to the player at the end baffles me.

And now we get to the good stuff! Are you telling me you beleive what the Star brat is telling you?

I agree, either reality or IT in both I believe the brat is a lier. 

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, Bioware intended for us to derive and perceive different things from the endings, that's why they were so vague. So I'm sure that I.T. is an acceptable perception, and it's cannon for 1000s of players.

A million  things can be derived from the "different" endings at face value, Bioware would never shoot down someones cannon unless it directly interferes with pre established rules, which it doesn't.

I agree that Bioware wanted to encourage speculation - they've come out and said as much. And it would be a sad day indeed if people stopped introducing a bit of their own imagination into the stories they're told.

I have no problem whatsoever with people who consider the IT to be their personal canon. There is some evidence for it, most people think its better than the real endings, and because so many people believe it it feels more 'real'.

But I just dont' believe that its the interpretation Bioware originall wanted players to make. There's too much against the IT for me to believe that it is what Bioware intended, and I don't really get why people think otherwise. I get that people want the IT to be true, but to actually believe that Bioware released it unfinished and to believe that the game outright lies to the player at the end baffles me.

And now we get to the good stuff! Are you telling me you beleive what the Star brat is telling you?

Not really.

Bioware clearly intended for it to be true (why write it otherwise?) but it contradicts the rest of the trilogy (synthetics have been shown, repeatedly, to get along with organics sometimes and that peace is possible).

Not sure what relevance this has to the IT. Not believing the Catalyst doesn't make the IT any more plausible.

There's a reason it contradicts the rest of the trilogy dude....Do you beleive in the Catalyst or Shepard more?

[Candidate 88766]

KingZayd wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

But why go to the effort of making Anderson's death so emotional for the player if you're then going to say it was all fake and that he died off-camera?

For that matter, why kill the same character twice in such a short time period? The first time around, Anderson's death will be emotional for the player but upon finding out its fake and then finding out he's actually dead won't invoke any response other than confusion.

From a storytelling point of view it makes less sense than the actual endings.

Ingame: Emotional death of Anderson actually strengthens indoctrination.
"This hurts you."  
Storytelling: Also gives Shepard the opportunity to say goodbye, that he wouldn't normally get.


If they've woken up in London and they see the dead bodies then that's not really confusing at all. 

We killed Saren twice at the end of mass effect 1

But if IT is right, you don't get to say goodbye. Any emotion you had with that scene is ruined when the game telsl you that it didn't actually happen.

Beating Saren twice in ME1 actually made sense - you defeat Saren and then confront the Reaper-ified corpse. Saren is still dead, you're now just fighting a boss-level husk.

[tractrpl]

There doesn't have to be a reason. Bad writing is all you need. It's not like such things haven't happened before.

[ryuasiu]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

? What are you talking about? It came out before the game came out and it was mostly accurate except for the ending. Not fake.

Link for this supposed copy of the script?

[KingZayd]

refuse81 wrote...

I don't like this theory.

- To me it's a coping mechanism, finding 'clues' everywhere to explain plot holes, as if Bioware intended us to do it. Reading 'it's the only thing that makes sense' is quite common. I think the ending was just so badly written and contrived some had to invent a new way to interpret the entire game.

- Wherever it supposedly 'cover' a plot hole, it creates a new one. What happened to the Illusive man if the one we meet in the "Citadel Indoctrination Scene" isn't real? We fight Cerberus and then poof he disappears? If indoctrination is what really happened, I'm even more infuriated about the result of the ending. I was treated with a dream, the Reapers are still killing everything and the game has no ending.

- It means the 'Extended Cut' DLC will not answer any questions, my fears about this were reinforced when they called the theory 'um, creative. at PAX, then went on to neither confirm or deny it. So they will keep this crap up with the DLC, since denying IT is true will cause another ****storm. We will get more speculation than ever, it seems.

These are just a few of my concerns. I am in no way saying I know more than anyone else or that your opinion is invalid, this is what i feel about the whole thing.

To me, it make sense, considering the story that leads up to that point.

TIM's probably still around. He was able to control Reaper forces, using that indoctrination device. Getting to the Citadel was probably easier for him than it was for you. 

Or the EC will answer questions by confirming DLC. Or by dismissing it. as well as the other stuff.

[refuse81]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

But why go to the effort of making Anderson's death so emotional for the player if you're then going to say it was all fake and that he died off-camera?

For that matter, why kill the same character twice in such a short time period? The first time around, Anderson's death will be emotional for the player but upon finding out its fake and then finding out he's actually dead won't invoke any response other than confusion.

From a storytelling point of view it makes less sense than the actual endings.

So much this. I understand the feeling of wanting to believe the ending to ME3 didn't feel so out of place, but at the same time it's puzzling how an effort to explain plot holes would make 'wake up, it was all just a dream' a better scenario.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

There's a reason it contradicts the rest of the trilogy dude....Do you beleive in the Catalyst or Shepard more?

I believe that the Catalyst may once have been right - that organics and synthetics will always end up fighting. And I believe that in ME3 you prove it wrong - that peace may well be possible.

Again, what relevance does this have to the IT?

This doesn't change the fact that Bioware wouldn't have shipped ME3 without its ending. The IT falls apart right there.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

? What are you talking about? It came out before the game came out and it was mostly accurate except for the ending. Not fake.

What, you mean the script of the main bulk of ME3? I thought you meant the supposed leak of the EC. My bad.

That scene from the script clearly changed, because Anderson died in ME3. 

The script makes no mention at all of the IT, so bringing it up weakens your own argument.

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

There's a reason it contradicts the rest of the trilogy dude....Do you beleive in the Catalyst or Shepard more?

I believe that the Catalyst may once have been right - that organics and synthetics will always end up fighting. And I believe that in ME3 you prove it wrong - that peace may well be possible.

Again, what relevance does this have to the IT?

This doesn't change the fact that Bioware wouldn't have shipped ME3 without its ending. The IT falls apart right there.

All living things end up fighting, the synthetics vs. organics problem wasn't an issue until Starkid made it one, why? To keep you from killing the reapers, and make you kill yourself instead.
 

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

answered some of those questions above already. Anderson's death likely already happened when you were passed out and Harby was blasting everyone in sight.

Any fake "ending" would include either the Reapers' end, or the antiReapers' end.

But why go to the effort of making Anderson's death so emotional for the player if you're then going to say it was all fake and that he died off-camera?

For that matter, why kill the same character twice in such a short time period? The first time around, Anderson's death will be emotional for the player but upon finding out its fake and then finding out he's actually dead won't invoke any response other than confusion.

From a storytelling point of view it makes less sense than the actual endings.

Ingame: Emotional death of Anderson actually strengthens indoctrination.
"This hurts you."  
Storytelling: Also gives Shepard the opportunity to say goodbye, that he wouldn't normally get.


If they've woken up in London and they see the dead bodies then that's not really confusing at all. 

We killed Saren twice at the end of mass effect 1

But if IT is right, you don't get to say goodbye. Any emotion you had with that scene is ruined when the game telsl you that it didn't actually happen.

Beating Saren twice in ME1 actually made sense - you defeat Saren and then confront the Reaper-ified corpse. Saren is still dead, you're now just fighting a boss-level husk.

Is it? emotion tends to linger, and that scene, even if imagined will still give Shepard more closure than nothing.

Anderson dying twice also makes sense. Once in reality, once in Shepard's head.

[ryuasiu]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

? What are you talking about? It came out before the game came out and it was mostly accurate except for the ending. Not fake.

What, you mean the script of the main bulk of ME3? I thought you meant the supposed leak of the EC. My bad.

That scene from the script clearly changed, because Anderson died in ME3. 

The script makes no mention at all of the IT, so bringing it up weakens your own argument.

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

I have seen alot of the leaked scripts and I have not seen this one, also not finding it through google search. Link?

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

But the script is basically the same.

The script talks about the conversation with the Catalyst, the three choices presented to Shepard, and the fact that the Relays will be lost. At no stage does the script ever mention anything that hints at the IT.

You've put forward the script leak, that has no proof of the IT, and are using it as proof of the IT because it changed.

You must see how illogical that is.

[balance5050]

ryuasiu wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

No man, following the leaked script, Anderson is still alive, he's gonna help you up from being uncounsious. Shep pulls a metal peice from his leg (which we see in the Shep Alive scene) pumps in some medigel and keeps going.

The same leaked script that the devs came out and confirmed fake?

? What are you talking about? It came out before the game came out and it was mostly accurate except for the ending. Not fake.

What, you mean the script of the main bulk of ME3? I thought you meant the supposed leak of the EC. My bad.

That scene from the script clearly changed, because Anderson died in ME3. 

The script makes no mention at all of the IT, so bringing it up weakens your own argument.

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

I have seen alot of the leaked scripts and I have not seen this one, also not finding it through google search. Link?

It was the original leaked script, the ONLY one iv'e ever heard of, came out like in october, give me a sec and I'll find it.

[Candidate 88766]

KingZayd wrote...


Is it? emotion tends to linger, and that scene, even if imagined will still give Shepard more closure than nothing.

Anderson dying twice also makes sense. Once in reality, once in Shepard's head.

But why bother with the first one at all?

The IT would work fine even if Anderson wasn't present in this dreamworld, so why show him dying there as well? 

Killing the same character twice in such a short timespan will never have the same impact as killing him once. It waters down the whole scene.