218 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

But the script is basically the same.

The script talks about the conversation with the Catalyst, the three choices presented to Shepard, and the fact that the Relays will be lost. At no stage does the script ever mention anything that hints at the IT.

You've put forward the script leak, that has no proof of the IT, and are using it as proof of the IT because it changed.

You must see how illogical that is.

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

But the script is basically the same.

The script talks about the conversation with the Catalyst, the three choices presented to Shepard, and the fact that the Relays will be lost. At no stage does the script ever mention anything that hints at the IT.

You've put forward the script leak, that has no proof of the IT, and are using it as proof of the IT because it changed.

You must see how illogical that is.

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

So why bring it up at all?

An old script with no hint of the IT doesn nothing to strengthen the argument for it.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 22 avril 2012 - 04:42 .

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Is it? emotion tends to linger, and that scene, even if imagined will still give Shepard more closure than nothing.

Anderson dying twice also makes sense. Once in reality, once in Shepard's head.

But why bother with the first one at all?

The IT would work fine even if Anderson wasn't present in this dreamworld, so why show him dying there as well? 

Killing the same character twice in such a short timespan will never have the same impact as killing him once. It waters down the whole scene.

Because it works better. The level of indoctrination jumps again when "Anderson dies". "TIM" failed, the reaper influence tried to find another way.

[shepskisaac]

balance5050 wrote...

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

Javik was never the Catalyst lol. He had Vendetta's role, that's it. Being presumed to be the Catalyst =/= being the Catalyst.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Stengthens it because in the script changes RIGHT WHEN HARBINGER'S LASER STRIKES SHEP. And guess what else? The kid was originally Harbinger.

But the script is basically the same.

The script talks about the conversation with the Catalyst, the three choices presented to Shepard, and the fact that the Relays will be lost. At no stage does the script ever mention anything that hints at the IT.

You've put forward the script leak, that has no proof of the IT, and are using it as proof of the IT because it changed.

You must see how illogical that is.

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

So why bring it up at all?

An old script with no hint of the IT doesn nothing to strengthen the argument for it.

All evidence should be examined. I'm not arguing that IT was in the script, I'm arguing that it's awesome, especially if Bioware decides to roll with it.

[dreman9999]

someone else wrote...

Hey OP, just check out the link in my sig - its a very plausible and I think better "explanation" - more critically, it gives BW an easier path way to go than IT

ps not trying for points here, but so far no one has come up with flaw that sticks, unlike IT

Ya.....I looked at it...That's much much worse. It's basicly saying none of it happened. If BW DID THAT, THE RAGE WILL NEVER END.

[balance5050]

IsaacShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

Javik was never the Catalyst lol. He had Vendetta's role, that's it. Being presumed to be the Catalyst =/= being the Catalyst.

Javic was going to have to be the one to activate the crucible with the citadel because the protheans hacked it remember? That's why I think that Shepard is the true catalyst because he has the Prothean cipher, which would wrap back around to ME1 quite nicely.

I love speculations.

[dreman9999]

refuse81 wrote...

I don't like this theory.

- To me it's a coping mechanism, finding 'clues' everywhere to explain plot holes, as if Bioware intended us to do it. Reading 'it's the only thing that makes sense' is quite common. I think the ending was just so badly written and contrived some had to invent a new way to interpret the entire game.

- Wherever it supposedly 'cover' a plot hole, it creates a new one. What happened to the Illusive man if the one we meet in the "Citadel Indoctrination Scene" isn't real? We fight Cerberus and then poof he disappears? If indoctrination is what really happened, I'm even more infuriated about the result of the ending. I was treated with a dream, the Reapers are still killing everything and the game has no ending.

- It means the 'Extended Cut' DLC will not answer any questions, my fears about this were reinforced when they called the theory 'um, creative. at PAX, then went on to neither confirm or deny it. So they will keep this crap up with the DLC, since denying IT is true will cause another ****storm. We will get more speculation than ever, it seems.

These are just a few of my concerns. I am in no way saying I know more than anyone else or that your opinion is invalid, this is what i feel about the whole thing.

1. For that time, it not a coping Mechanisum. We are using lore and facts to build this theory. It makes sense.
2. Can you not see that if the theory is true, we will e facing TIM again?The ec will add more to the story.
3. No, it means that EC will add more to the story, which BW said it's going to.

[shepskisaac]

balance5050 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

Javik was never the Catalyst lol. He had Vendetta's role, that's it. Being presumed to be the Catalyst =/= being the Catalyst.

Javic was going to have to be the one to activate the crucible with the citadel because the protheans hacked it remember? That's why I think that Shepard is the true catalyst because he has the Prothean cipher, which would wrap back around to ME1 quite nicely.

I love speculations.

No. It was clear even in the oldest version of the script that the Citadel is the Catalyst. It's written clearly as their intention. Don't spread misinformation. Javik was never the Catalyst

[BiancoAngelo7]

welcome to the club....

[balance5050]

IsaacShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The leak was old, and it never had the "Shep Alive" Scene, the "jungle planet" scene, and it also had Javik as the Catalyst.

Javik was never the Catalyst lol. He had Vendetta's role, that's it. Being presumed to be the Catalyst =/= being the Catalyst.

Javic was going to have to be the one to activate the crucible with the citadel because the protheans hacked it remember? That's why I think that Shepard is the true catalyst because he has the Prothean cipher, which would wrap back around to ME1 quite nicely.

I love speculations.

No. It was clear even in the oldest version of the script that the Citadel is the Catalyst. It's written clearly as their intention. Don't spread misinformation. Javik was never the Catalyst

Yes he was. Can't find the script but this is common knowledge. Look here:

http://www.holdtheli...ng-quality.972/ 

[refuse81]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. For that time, it not a coping Mechanisum. We are using lore and facts to build this theory. It makes sense.
2. Can you not see that if the theory is true, we will e facing TIM again?The ec will add more to the story.
3. No, it means that EC will add more to the story, which BW said it's going to.

First of all. I write what I think then you post what I should think? Really?
Ok. To clarify:

1.  Yes, it is a coping mechanism in my opinion. People say 'This thing doesn't make sense and I don't like it. But hey, if you look at this clip and interpret this section of this codex entry in a certain way, it makes sense! Yay!" That is - by definition, a coping mechanism. I think using facts an lore in this way is a bit too 'creative' to make sense from a) A business standpoint and Story wise. BW could have foreshadowed indoctrination way better if that was their true intent, which I don't believe.

2-3. I made it clear that by having to wait for months to see the actual ending to a game I bought and played through the first week does not make me a happy camper. 'It was all a dream' is the worst kind of Deus Ex Machina there is. Bioware has never said the extended cut dlc will contain gameplay, and never said it would add to the story, just clarify the ending and bring more closure. Would a second run in with TIM in a cutscene really feel satisfying to you? Also, they've been talking about rebuilding the mass relays, which according to IT happened in a dream.. 

[shepskisaac]

balance5050 wrote...

Yes he was. Can't find the script but this is common knowledge. Look here:

http://www.holdtheli...ng-quality.972/ 

No he wasn't:

"CUTSCENE - After defeating Kai Leng a video screen boots up. After learning that the Citadel was the Catalyst, the Illusive Man got aboard it. The Reapers have moved the Citadel to Earth now, in preparations for the final stages of humanity?s ascension to Reaperhood? and Shepard must act now if he?s going to stop the Illusive Man, and the Reapers."

From the oldest version of the script. Wanna keep arguing?

[balance5050]

IsaacShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Yes he was. Can't find the script but this is common knowledge. Look here:

http://www.holdtheli...ng-quality.972/ 

No he wasn't:

"CUTSCENE - After defeating Kai Leng a video screen boots up. After learning that the Citadel was the Catalyst, the Illusive Man got aboard it. The Reapers have moved the Citadel to Earth now, in preparations for the final stages of humanity?s ascension to Reaperhood? and Shepard must act now if he?s going to stop the Illusive Man, and the Reapers."

From the oldest version of the script. Wanna keep arguing?

LOL! Guess I should have said that Javik/ Shep are the only ones that can actually use it because the protheans hacked the Citadel.

[shepskisaac]

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! Guess I should have said that Javik/ Shep are the only ones that can actually use it because the protheans hacked the Citadel.

Except that Javik was never suppoused to use it anywhere in the script, not in the old version, neither in the new one. Conclusion: stop spreading misinformation. Javik's role was almost the same as Vendetta's, he was never suppoused to be the Catalyst nor do anything with it in the endings

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...
All evidence should be examined. I'm not arguing that IT was in the script, I'm arguing that it's awesome, especially if Bioware decides to roll with it.

But that's the whole point of the conversation. If we were only to say "would you like for Indoctrination to be the explanation for the endings?" I think most of us would say "hell, yeah". What we're debating is whether or not that's what was originally intended. I don't think it was.

[balance5050]

IsaacShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! Guess I should have said that Javik/ Shep are the only ones that can actually use it because the protheans hacked the Citadel.

Except that Javik was never suppoused to use it anywhere in the script, not in the old version, neither in the new one. Conclusion: stop spreading misinformation. Javik's role was almost the same as Vendetta's, he was never suppoused to be the Catalyst nor do anything with it in the endings

Touchy!! Just using common sense dude.... I'm just saying that it makes sense that they would make Shep be the chosen one who can actually use the crucible with the help of the catalyst because he has the prothean cipher, it would only make sense that Javik could as well.

I admit I was misusing the word catalyst right there, but that does say that the Citadel is the Catalyst, the Citadel was hacked to not respond to reapers signal. So that would leave only two people that could use it: Javik and Shepard. 

[Humakt83]

DJBare wrote...

Navasha wrote...

People would have to blatantly turn a blind eye to all of the foreshadowing. Ever ask WHY so much foreshadowing is written in to the game?

But it is understandable why they are against IT, it would mean they never got the full game they paid for.

Did you got a full game without IT?

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
All evidence should be examined. I'm not arguing that IT was in the script, I'm arguing that it's awesome, especially if Bioware decides to roll with it.

But that's the whole point of the conversation. If we were only to say "would you like for Indoctrination to be the explanation for the endings?" I think most of us would say "hell, yeah". What we're debating is whether or not that's what was originally intended. I don't think it was.

? They originally intended for people to derive their own meanings from the ambiguous ending, I.T. just happens to be the most unanimous meaning derived.

[balance5050]

Humakt83 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Navasha wrote...

People would have to blatantly turn a blind eye to all of the foreshadowing. Ever ask WHY so much foreshadowing is written in to the game?

But it is understandable why they are against IT, it would mean they never got the full game they paid for.

Did you got a full game without IT?

I'm thinking no.

[redplague]

Master Che wrote...

redplague wrote...

Umm...you realise that the indoctrination theory has already been disproven by Bioware and their summer DLC release right, as the indoctrination theory was based on the fact that it was all planned by Bioware, which obviously we realise now that it wasn't.

Dont go by memory.  Show us.

What do you mean "don't go by memory".  It's on this website that they are releasing the DLC in the summer, if they had planned it it would have been released by now.

[redplague]

KingZayd wrote...

redplague wrote...

Umm...you realise that the indoctrination theory has already been disproven by Bioware and their summer DLC release right, as the indoctrination theory was based on the fact that it was all planned by Bioware, which obviously we realise now that it wasn't.

Or maybe it's a way to make what was going to be a secret DLC twist reveal, not completely obvious again?

With the reaction that the endings have had it would have been the opposite, they would have released it even sooner saying "Hey this proves we meant it all along".

[redplague]

Master Che wrote...

Ive noticed that a good number anti IT people seldom cite real flaws in the theory. They just assert their position. Usually what they think is a flaw is a biased induced misunderstanding. IRONICALLY if you point that out then you're accused of making it up as you go along...yet they can't rebut the clarification. Lol

The IT is based on the premise that it was a planned thing by Bioware, the length of time that has passed without the reveal disproves the theory.

[KingZayd]

redplague wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

redplague wrote...

Umm...you realise that the indoctrination theory has already been disproven by Bioware and their summer DLC release right, as the indoctrination theory was based on the fact that it was all planned by Bioware, which obviously we realise now that it wasn't.

Or maybe it's a way to make what was going to be a secret DLC twist reveal, not completely obvious again?

With the reaction that the endings have had it would have been the opposite, they would have released it even sooner saying "Hey this proves we meant it all along".

I don't think they anticipated the reaction. They thought they had time, and they didn't. Admitting indoc theory while having nothing to show for it wouldn't win them much.

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 06:59 .

[SCJ90]

I hope that IT is right, if it is I will throw my money after BW for the next couple of decades because of this epic trolling off every fan.

But if BW really did screw up (in my opinion they did) then I will throw my money at something else!
Booze and tobacco most likly but still.

As for the child part, well a soldier who lands in a hot LZ to rescue civvies from giant space squids are not going to ignore a child that is trying to make it onboard, nor are the civvies for that matter!