176 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

There is no use really in believing the supernatural. It's more of a distraction..

@Arian - well, neoplatonism doesn't say much about the supernatural per se. Nothing about ghosts and stuff (only some kind of god, maybe...)

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

There is phenomenons and powers in the world, unperceivable by empirical senses and devices.
Empirical methods are unable to record all of the universe ... they're mostly categorized as spiritual.

So the problems of Empiricism are:
1) Time (can't access past and future)
2) Space (can't access most of universe, and even possible beyond of it)
3) Unperceivables (explained above)

Because of these, science cannot express an accurate generalization for the Cosmos.

eroeru wrote...

There is no use really in believing the supernatural. It's more of a distraction..

@Arian - well, neoplatonism doesn't say much about the supernatural per se. Nothing about ghosts and stuff (only some kind of god, maybe...)

I didn't say banshees are real... What I want to say is the matter of possibilities.

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 23 avril 2012 - 03:28 .

[Homebound]

from my pov, everything works within the context of the universe. If ghosts exist, then its because of some explainable phenomena we have yet to grasp, gods or no gods, as most people pair the existence of ghosts with an afterlife which feeds into the deity concept..

[Naughty Bear]

If the supernatural do exist, that last thing i want to be real is Silent Hill.

But my mind is set on the 'supernatural don't exist'.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 23 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Or maybe they don't play by the rules.

Let's suppose that after decades you finally established some rules for ghosts. Only for the ghosts to break them. And you try again. And they break them again. And again. And again.

Basicly God flips you teh bird and thows a spenner in your attempt to understand it.
2+2=4? Not anymore. Now it's 5... No, wait. 2+2 = fish!

Sure. Then the hypothesis that the universe actually has consistent rules has to be abandoned. Either we're in the Matrix, or Sufficiently Advanced Aliens are playing god, or it really is God(s) screwing with us.

Are beings like Star Trek's Q "supernatural"?

[Lotion Soronarr]

No, it just means that they don't paly by any rules..at least not any you cna discover/detect.

And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.


Beings like Q are inconsistent and silly concpet (even tough a fun character). That isn't a sufficiently advanced alien, since Q's powers are not based on technology. Not to metnion he apprently can chagne the laws of the universe. Which would mean science and physics are his playthings.

[Blastback]

Seagloom wrote...

I do not disbelieve the possibility of their existence. My feeling is that until everything can be explained away by science, anything is possible.

Right there with you.

I want for Nessie to be a Plesiosaur.  Just saying.

[Onkel Cannabia]

No.
No reason to believe in them. There are thousands of ways in which ghosts, psychics, gods etc. could be real and science wouldn't be able to tell. There are also thousands of ways in which anal probing aliens, invisible unicorns, Greek gods, galactic empires of space pigs and any other nonsense could be real. Without evidence they are all equally ridiculous. Anything is possible with enough imagination. We use the concept of evidence to distinguish between an active imagination and real things.

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.

Technically, I'd say that it means there's a meta-rule in place --  the rules are whatever God wants them to be today.

IIRC, however, Catholic teaching is that God Himself can not structure the universe in such a way that it's contrary to reason and logic. I don't know if the Protestants think about issues like this.

Beings like Q are inconsistent and silly concpet (even tough a fun character). That isn't a sufficiently advanced alien, since Q's powers are not based on technology. Not to metnion he apprently can chagne the laws of the universe. Which would mean science and physics are his playthings.

I believe the backstory on the Q is that they were physical being like humans once -- presumably they got to their current state via technology of some kind.

[Daennikus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.

Technically, I'd say that it means there's a meta-rule in place --  the rules are whatever God wants them to be today.

IIRC, however, Catholic teaching is that God Himself can not structure the universe in such a way that it's contrary to reason and logic. I don't know if the Protestants think about issues like this.

Wow! Do you assume that everybody here is a Christian?

To be safe, please keep God out of your theoretics. Thanks!

[AlanC9]

Daennikus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.

Technically, I'd say that it means there's a meta-rule in place --  the rules are whatever God wants them to be today.

IIRC, however, Catholic teaching is that God Himself can not structure the universe in such a way that it's contrary to reason and logic. I don't know if the Protestants think about issues like this.

Wow! Do you assume that everybody here is a Christian?

Assume that,? No. Don't know, don't care.

To be safe, please keep God out of your theoretics. Thanks!

Huh? What's unsafe about discussing a religion's position about the issue under discussion? Unless I got it wrong; Catholics and/or scholars, please feel free to tell me if I'm clueless.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 avril 2012 - 08:12 .

[android654]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it just means that they don't paly by any rules..at least not any you cna discover/detect.

And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.


Beings like Q are inconsistent and silly concpet (even tough a fun character). That isn't a sufficiently advanced alien, since Q's powers are not based on technology. Not to metnion he apprently can chagne the laws of the universe. Which would mean science and physics are his playthings.

Do you realize how this entire statement is riddled with nonsense? If "god" changes the rules of how the universe, planets and/or atmospheres work it would reshape everything around it. If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

[Daennikus]

android654 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it just means that they don't paly by any rules..at least not any you cna discover/detect.

And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.


Beings like Q are inconsistent and silly concpet (even tough a fun character). That isn't a sufficiently advanced alien, since Q's powers are not based on technology. Not to metnion he apprently can chagne the laws of the universe. Which would mean science and physics are his playthings.

Do you realize how this entire statement is riddled with nonsense? If "god" changes the rules of how the universe, planets and/or atmospheres work it would reshape everything around it. If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

There. This.


It doesn't take a "scholar" or a Catholic/believer to see that mixing religious thoughts with any scientific process is wild.

The problem with religion is that it substracts reason with emotions. That's why it's "safe" to exclude God from your views of the universe. Keep your spiritual beliefs to yourself. Sorry!

Modifié par Daennikus, 24 avril 2012 - 08:26 .

[goofyomnivore]

I don't believe in supernatural powers, creatures or whatever. However if I saw what I thought was a ghost, bigfoot or whatever. I'd gtfo rather than bother it.

[sreaction]

Arcadian Legend wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

I do not disbelieve the possibility of their existence. My feeling is that until everything can be explained away by science, anything is possible.

Just a thought...the universe does not need science in order to exist.

[grregg]

android654 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it just means that they don't paly by any rules..at least not any you cna discover/detect.

And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.


Beings like Q are inconsistent and silly concpet (even tough a fun character). That isn't a sufficiently advanced alien, since Q's powers are not based on technology. Not to metnion he apprently can chagne the laws of the universe. Which would mean science and physics are his playthings.

Do you realize how this entire statement is riddled with nonsense? If "god" changes the rules of how the universe, planets and/or atmospheres work it would reshape everything around it. If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

You are assuming that the laws of physics are the same throughout the Universe. Or to be exact that they would change all throughout the Universe if some god is playing with them. That does not have to be the case, right? We can imagine a universe where the laws of physics vary by location. Heck, even in our own, we are not exactly sure that this is not the case.

[android654]

grregg wrote...

android654 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it just means that they don't paly by any rules..at least not any you cna discover/detect.

And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.


Beings like Q are inconsistent and silly concpet (even tough a fun character). That isn't a sufficiently advanced alien, since Q's powers are not based on technology. Not to metnion he apprently can chagne the laws of the universe. Which would mean science and physics are his playthings.

Do you realize how this entire statement is riddled with nonsense? If "god" changes the rules of how the universe, planets and/or atmospheres work it would reshape everything around it. If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

You are assuming that the laws of physics are the same throughout the Universe. Or to be exact that they would change all throughout the Universe if some god is playing with them. That does not have to be the case, right? We can imagine a universe where the laws of physics vary by location. Heck, even in our own, we are not exactly sure that this is not the case.

You just insulted every teacher you've ever had in your career as a student. Allow me to suggest a hypothetical. Say god(s) get a wild idea to increase gravity by 10%. Are you aware of the impact it would have on your organs? Shift the magnetic poles to different positions on the planet immediately. There would be uncontrolable storms that wipe out a large mass of habitable land, have unknown effects on technology, erosion, even the efficacy of building material that holds up all of our structures. Or if they imagine they would like to increase the nitrogen by 20%. The plaent would be inhabitable. Change the gravitational pull of the Sun's orbit and it will increase or decrease the planet's temperature, climate and weather. The effects of this could cause our planet to become barren and frozen like Mars or a nuclear oven like Venus.

All things in this universe work with a sense of equilibrium. If you shift anything in that balance it has consequences. Nothing can **** those valies at will since the reprecussions of doing so would undo what is.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Supernatural ideas amuse me and it gives me something to curse when I accidently kick something or hurt myself. I've never seen a ghost and God hasn't accepted my invitation to talk yet...so I'm mostly a believer of science. Religion to me is just a testament to the human imagination in an attempt to explain reality and pass on morality.

[grregg]

android654 wrote...

(...)

You just insulted every teacher you've ever had in your career as a student. Allow me to suggest a hypothetical. Say god(s) get a wild idea to increase gravity by 10%. Are you aware of the impact it would have on your organs? Shift the magnetic poles to different positions on the planet immediately. There would be uncontrolable storms that wipe out a large mass of habitable land, have unknown effects on technology, erosion, even the efficacy of building material that holds up all of our structures. Or if they imagine they would like to increase the nitrogen by 20%. The plaent would be inhabitable. Change the gravitational pull of the Sun's orbit and it will increase or decrease the planet's temperature, climate and weather. The effects of this could cause our planet to become barren and frozen like Mars or a nuclear oven like Venus.

All things in this universe work with a sense of equilibrium. If you shift anything in that balance it has consequences. Nothing can **** those valies at will since the reprecussions of doing so would undo what is.

First, can you skip the insults? I might cry otherwise and then where will we be?

Second, I think you misunderstood what I said. I merely stated that if we allow someone (a god) to modify laws of physics, there is no need to assume that all such modifications would be global. One reason to think that might be that we are not absolutely positively sure that the laws of physics are the same throughout our Universe.

To be sure, we have some solid evidence that they are, but the matter is the subject of some (usually mind-bending) debate. See uniformitarianism if you're interested in more info.

So, to analyze your example, if someone increases the gravitational constant all throughout the Universe, all hell would undoubtedly break loose. On a side note, it would interesting to see how fast such modification travels. Is a modification in laws of physics immediate? If so, it would invalidate Einstein's theory of relativity.

On the other hand, if the modification is local then the consequences are less dramatic. If someone lower the G constant around your liver, I'm sure the Universe would withstand that. Why not?

[slimgrin]

Nope. I quit believing in god long ago.

[android654]

@grregg
That would be a "quantum state phenomena" and there's no science to support that it could exist, that's why it's a phenomena. You wouldn't be able to isolate the effects of changing something like gravity to a singular space. For it to happen it would defy everything we know about physics. Even the smallest things like gravity and ionic bonds exist they way they do in order to maintain entropy form the planet as a whole. influencing it in China would affect people in Broooklyn.

It comes down to basic knowledge of science and critical thinking skills. If there's no evidence to support something, then that doesn't mean you're allowed to speculate and add in a host of nonsensical things. It merely means you're misapplying your basic faculties.

Modifié par android654, 25 avril 2012 - 02:08 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

My semi-final viewpoint on higher powers:

Definition of God: A phenomena or person that is immortal and has supernatural powers - can write and apply the physical rules or manipulate the principles.

This Universe is created/designed by the Architect God.
It has founded the universe with set of rules far more complex than mathematics, with certain freedom of actions mostly applied on rational/sapient level.

Also There is two opposing forces (wills) in the universe besides (ordinary gray matters) which are Order and Chaos. Even evolution has been influenced by this struggle.
This can be the allowed freedom of action (by Architect God) or the power of two other gods, who influence the world to their favor (like Ahuramazda and Ahriman) after the Architect God.

There are 3 levels of natural-material existence:
1) Non-Organic simple objects (consistent and repetitive, change is superficial) - Physics
2) Organics (instinctive - no thinking, individuality or moral) - Biology
3) Sapient Organics (intelligent - rational - moral) - Current humanistic knowledge

To reach to the highest rational and moral state (true understanding) is the end that Architect God (or Ahuramazda) has considered for the worthy creatures of the universe. It's happening through spiritual guidance of the whole of each species. A supernatural phenomena, that is hard to grasp.

To reach chaos, annihilation and being so mean and immoral, and step back to Organic or even Non-organic level is the end of Chaos will (or Ahriman's). It's a natural phenomena and it's easier to grasp (mostly done by deception). Yes, material world isn't a nice place, because Ahriman's influence is stronger.

Scientific method? ... I've never believed in it's holiness. Quantum Physics disorder of atoms? ... It has no influence even on a cell, on human will absolutely not! Genetics and Evolution (survival theory and random mutation)? Anti-Rationalist philosophers? Physiological nonsense explanations? ... None, can scratch my philosophy.

My philosophy is strong (besides few uncertainties) and it's an innovation or retrogression (based on your definition of them), but as you don't want to understand it, stick to your narrow-minded obvious science.

Finally It's the matter of 'Belief' to accept the existence of deity (or deities) or not. Atheists believe in its non-existence for chaotic reasons and God-believers believe in its existence for good reasons. True Scientists remain neutral and agnostic.

Alas.. I don't have any degree in philosophy. So call me a freelancer philosopher.

[grregg]

android654 wrote...

@grregg
That would be a "quantum state phenomena" and there's no science to support that it could exist, that's why it's a phenomena. You wouldn't be able to isolate the effects of changing something like gravity to a singular space. For it to happen it would defy everything we know about physics. Even the smallest things like gravity and ionic bonds exist they way they do in order to maintain entropy form the planet as a whole. influencing it in China would affect people in Broooklyn.

It comes down to basic knowledge of science and critical thinking skills. If there's no evidence to support something, then that doesn't mean you're allowed to speculate and add in a host of nonsensical things. It merely means you're misapplying your basic faculties.

Hmm, we seem to be arguing several separate points. I'll try to organize.

So we were arguing about:

1. Existence of a god loosely defined as an entity being able to manipulate laws of physics at will.

Here, I totally agree, we have no evidence of its existence and any speculation on the topic belongs to the realm of science fiction and/or fantasy or religion obviously. I wouldn't call it a misapplication of one's faculties though, more like "fun intellectual exercise" but generally we agree here.

2. Gods' existence is impossible because any modification to laws of physics would have a catastrophic (or at least visible) impact on the Universe.

Here, we disagree. Again I'll point out the local modification scenario and the possibility of laws of physics varying in our Universe. As I said, we have evidence to the contrary and we generally assume that laws of physics are global and stable over time, but for the sake of speculation, we could consider local modifications.

3. Local modifications of laws of physics are impossible because, to put it short, everything affects everything.

I disagree, an example of a phenomenon that prohibits interactions is event horizon. Whatever happens within it, cannot affect an outside observer. And as far we know quite a number of event horizons do exist.

So the long story short, I disagree on minor (but fun) technicalities.

[grregg]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

(...)

Scientific method? ... I've never believed in it's holiness. Quantum Physics disorder of atoms? ... It has no influence even on a cell, on human will absolutely not! Genetics and Evolution (survival theory and random mutation)? Anti-Rationalist philosophers? Physiological nonsense explanations? ... None, can scratch my philosophy.

My philosophy is strong (besides few uncertainties) and it's an innovation or retrogression (based on your definition of them), but as you don't want to understand it, stick to your narrow-minded obvious science.

(...)

Well, most of you said is rather impossible to debate as it belongs in the realm of religious dogma, but the two points above caught my interest.

What do you mean by no influence on cells or human will? Can you elaborate?

As for the second point, not sure what benefit you are deriving from your philosophy so it might be hard to compare, but the benefits of science are enormous. To point just one, we are having this discussion on an Internet forums, a contraption whose existence would be a pure fantasy not so long ago. How does your philosophy fare against that?