176 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And if God changes the ruels of the universe, the rules still exist no? It's just that they are different.

Technically, I'd say that it means there's a meta-rule in place --  the rules are whatever God wants them to be today.

IIRC, however, Catholic teaching is that God Himself can not structure the universe in such a way that it's contrary to reason and logic. I don't know if the Protestants think about issues like this.

I'm a Catholic, and this is hte first I hear about it.
I think you mean he won't...not that he can't. Being omnipotent, there is no limit.
As strange as it sounds, logic itself would be subject to His whims.

I believe the backstory on the Q is that they were physical being like humans once -- presumably they got to their current state via technology of some kind.

If that'sh te case then the idea sucks even more.

[Lotion Soronarr]

android654 wrote...
Do you realize how this entire statement is riddled with nonsense? If "god" changes the rules of how the universe, planets and/or atmospheres work it would reshape everything around it. If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

You might want to look the meaning of Omnipotence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

android654 wrote...

@grregg
That would be a "quantum state phenomena" and there's no science to support that it could exist, that's why it's a phenomena. You wouldn't be able to isolate the effects of changing something like gravity to a singular space. For it to happen it would defy everything we know about physics. Even the smallest things like gravity and ionic bonds exist they way they do in order to maintain entropy form the planet as a whole. influencing it in China would affect people in Broooklyn.

It comes down to basic knowledge of science and critical thinking skills. If there's no evidence to support something, then that doesn't mean you're allowed to speculate and add in a host of nonsensical things. It merely means you're misapplying your basic faculties.

As I said before - omnipotence. God can do whatever the hell HE wants, regardless how impossible it may seem.

Change the gravity constant in the universe but leave Earth exactly as it is? Why the hell not? Makes no darn sense to us, but God is beyond that. He can make everything valid invalid, everyting true false. He can make things false and true at the same time..and neither.
If can shape the universe as He wills, change physical laws at will and make even abstract concepts His palythings..who am I to argue.

In theory...

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

grregg wrote...

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

(...)

Scientific method? ... I've never believed in it's holiness. Quantum Physics disorder of atoms? ... It has no influence even on a cell, on human will absolutely not! Genetics and Evolution (survival theory and random mutation)? Anti-Rationalist philosophers? Physiological nonsense explanations? ... None, can scratch my philosophy.

My philosophy is strong (besides few uncertainties) and it's an innovation or retrogression (based on your definition of them), but as you don't want to understand it, stick to your narrow-minded obvious science.

(...)

Well, most of you said is rather impossible to debate as it belongs in the realm of religious dogma, but the two points above caught my interest.

What do you mean by no influence on cells or human will? Can you elaborate?

As for the second point, not sure what benefit you are deriving from your philosophy so it might be hard to compare, but the benefits of science are enormous. To point just one, we are having this discussion on an Internet forums, a contraption whose existence would be a pure fantasy not so long ago. How does your philosophy fare against that?

About the quantum disorder of atoms .. I mean its influence on the realms of Biology and Ethics; its fallacious (some claim free will in everything with it), on the contrary of Naturalistic Fallacy which is also wrong - Moore is somehow right. In biology there are the 'wills' who affect DNA, not some random electrons... Even in large scales of non-organic things it's implausible that this (inter-)atomic fact can change the determined occurrence of physical events.

With compatibilistic approach of mine, and considering free will in only rational level and its relation with other humans and other things in physical world (hindrances), It's quite unbelievable how can these puny atoms change your attitude in an ethical matter, or they tiny freedom instantly gives you the freedom you want! I'm seek of talking about these vomitious atoms!

I have lost many benefits just because of spending my time reading, researching and forming my interpretation! Benefits.. pft! Your utilitarian response to my comment is laughable ... But I hope someday after my death, some responsible people who will attend to my philosophy, gather and form a small government to save the humanity from madness of our time and the chaos. (like Stephen Hawking's wish, but more ambitious)

Internet is a (gray) tool, and beside few good communication, entertaining and information sharing, it has been used for unwanted matters like piracy, debauchery and recruiting terrorists which has been harmful to the economy, art and psyche of societies around the world.

Researching in many fields, makes you see the big picture, even you're not master of any.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

android654 wrote...
Do you realize how this entire statement is riddled with nonsense? If "god" changes the rules of how the universe, planets and/or atmospheres work it would reshape everything around it. If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

You might want to look the meaning of Omnipotence.

Omnipotence is very unlikely. In my interpretation that is very flexible and accepts tolerance with non-fanatical religions, If the God is the Architect (or Brahma), then Ahuramazda is the Holy Spirit and Ahriman is Satan.
By considering bigger role for Satan, the 'Problem of Evil' is solved.
There is the possibility of Jesus being a prophet who is inspired or directly revealed by the Holy-Spirit. Now It is so religious and this topic doesn't demand it. :innocent:

About changing of the laws, I don't think the God wants to destroy the world by changing them. The eternal principle of our universe are determined first by the Architect. It is plausible that other set of rules could have been applied in the universe or possible other universes (inspired by Leibniz).

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 25 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[MstrJedi Kyle]

Personal experience makes it so I have to believe in supernatural stuff.

[android654]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

android654 wrote...

@grregg
That would be a "quantum state phenomena" and there's no science to support that it could exist, that's why it's a phenomena. You wouldn't be able to isolate the effects of changing something like gravity to a singular space. For it to happen it would defy everything we know about physics. Even the smallest things like gravity and ionic bonds exist they way they do in order to maintain entropy form the planet as a whole. influencing it in China would affect people in Broooklyn.

It comes down to basic knowledge of science and critical thinking skills. If there's no evidence to support something, then that doesn't mean you're allowed to speculate and add in a host of nonsensical things. It merely means you're misapplying your basic faculties.

As I said before - omnipotence. God can do whatever the hell HE wants, regardless how impossible it may seem.

Change the gravity constant in the universe but leave Earth exactly as it is? Why the hell not? Makes no darn sense to us, but God is beyond that. He can make everything valid invalid, everyting true false. He can make things false and true at the same time..and neither.
If can shape the universe as He wills, change physical laws at will and make even abstract concepts His palythings..who am I to argue.

In theory...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

[android654]

greengoron89 wrote...

android654 wrote...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

Just a quick note: never assume something can't exist simply because it falls outside the realm of "science." Science is not an absolute truth and is still very much a work in progress - we will be making discoveries, discarding and changing old theories, and devising new ones for a long time to come.

Not that this fact lends any credence to the concept of omnipotence - I'm merely promoting a little humility, something many scientists and students of science seem to lack.

Science changes only when new facts enter into the equation. It's held by the reality of empiricism and not held to one's imagination or superstition. While certainly fallible, science is still a much better answer than simply saying something could exist because it is unknown.

[chunkyman]

I believe in the powers of Wematanye.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...
Omnipotence is very unlikely.

I don't see how you can possibly calculate the probability for that.
Assumign a creator diety exist, then Omnipotence is not a stretch at all.

And God is called Omnipotent numerous times.

About changing of the laws, I don't think the God wants to destroy the world by changing them. The eternal principle of our universe are determined first by the Architect. It is plausible that other set of rules could have been applied in the universe or possible other universes (inspired by Leibniz).

Why do you assume he'd destroy the wrold by changing them?
He could simply create a slighty different world. Or change the rules compeltely wihotu changing the world at all (make no sense? Omnipotence sneers at common sense).
Omnipotence is limitless. Paradoxes are irrelevant.

[Lotion Soronarr]

android654 wrote...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

And you are not making any sense.
Omnipotence doesn't require anyone seal of approval to exist. Math and quantum mechanics are omnipotences playthings.

How can math limit omnipotence, when omnipotence can re-write math, the rules of very existence, even the very intangible concepts and ideas to their very core? NOTHING is beyond omnipotence.

So yes, God can do whatever the hell He wants, no amtter how impossible or contrary to logic it may seem.

[BatmanPWNS]

If I can accept aliens, then it's easy to accept supernaturals........... for me anyway.

[xsdob]

Sea monsters and that is only as a maybe. The ocean is still mostly unexplored and a large marine animal that can eat large animals is not out of the question entirety.

[android654]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

android654 wrote...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

And you are not making any sense.
Omnipotence doesn't require anyone seal of approval to exist. Math and quantum mechanics are omnipotences playthings.

How can math limit omnipotence, when omnipotence can re-write math, the rules of very existence, even the very intangible concepts and ideas to their very core? NOTHING is beyond omnipotence.

So yes, God can do whatever the hell He wants, no amtter how impossible or contrary to logic it may seem.

Your ignorance is bewildering. Fine, if you want to believe in magic without a logical explanation for it's existence, go ahead. However, omnipotence is useless without a god, so where is the proof for one of those?

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm a Catholic, and this is hte first I hear about it.
I think you mean he won't...not that he can't. Being omnipotent, there is no limit.
As strange as it sounds, logic itself would be subject to His whims.

Well, I may be misinterpreting Aquinas. See, for exampe (itals mine):

Since the principles of certain sciences, such as logic, geometry and arithmetic are taken only from the formal principles of things, on which the essence of the thing depends, it follows that God could not make things contrary to these principles. For example, that a genus was not predicable of the species, or that lines drawn from the centre to the circumference were not equal, or that a triangle did not have three angles equal to two right angles. 

I believe the backstory on the Q is that they were physical being like humans once -- presumably they got to their current state via technology of some kind.

If that'sh te case then the idea sucks even more.

How so? That makes the Q not all that much different from the hyper-advanced aliens Clarke posits in 2001 and many other works. Actually, I think "Doc" Smith cooked up the idea first in in The Skylark of Space, although the Freeminds weren't truly omnipotent.

[Chromie]

android654 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

android654 wrote...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

And you are not making any sense.
Omnipotence doesn't require anyone seal of approval to exist. Math and quantum mechanics are omnipotences playthings.

How can math limit omnipotence, when omnipotence can re-write math, the rules of very existence, even the very intangible concepts and ideas to their very core? NOTHING is beyond omnipotence.

So yes, God can do whatever the hell He wants, no amtter how impossible or contrary to logic it may seem.

Your ignorance is bewildering. Fine, if you want to believe in magic without a logical explanation for it's existence, go ahead. However, omnipotence is useless without a god, so where is the proof for one of those?

I like where this is going.

[Daennikus]

Skelter192 wrote...
I like where this is going.

I also want to say: keep your spiritual beliefs to yourselves. I know this is not school, or the workplace, but debating around religious concepts is generally a source of great conflict. 

Even if this topic has been rather civil so far, I strongly suggest people to show restraint when expressing their opinions on things that have no factual evidence to back them up.

[LTD]

android654 wrote...
If there is a god, changing anything in the realm of physics would undo
everything that already exists and rewrite it into something else. It's not possible to do, even for any diety.  It's not possible to do, even for any diety.

With faith being such  personal thing I guess it usually is a bad move to comment it(or lack of it) in any way by default but I'll bite and say your take on God who needs to be God within boundaries  laws pf physics set is vastly exiting one!

God: " Wish I were Superman. Superman can fly. That ****ing gravity, it just isnt fair:( Why did I create it FFS:("

Modifié par LTD, 29 avril 2012 - 09:11 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

android654 wrote...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

And you are not making any sense.
Omnipotence doesn't require anyone seal of approval to exist. Math and quantum mechanics are omnipotences playthings.

How can math limit omnipotence, when omnipotence can re-write math, the rules of very existence, even the very intangible concepts and ideas to their very core? NOTHING is beyond omnipotence.

So yes, God can do whatever the hell He wants, no amtter how impossible or contrary to logic it may seem.

They think that laws of physics has created God! but On the contrary only God can create the laws of physics or alternative physics...

It is the Ibrahimic approach or something near to my interpretation that may be right ...

And yes, this discussion is better ends here. I have no time to waste for antitheism and better to avoid more arguments.

[RedArmyShogun]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...
I agree about this discussion, but you can't prove something t'ill it's proven, Atheism and Theism both have no "real" proof, Although the world clearly leans towards Atheism being partly correct, I have no problem with Theism but to think that your religion is completely correct out of 215631645273 other religions is beyond arrogant. The fact is Proof exists for neither, so stop talking about it. 

This isn't what the topic was intended for.

Don't try to guide us with your sorcerer's ways, Jedi Kenobi. Your sad devotion to that ancient means of debate has not helped you conjure up reasoning, or given you clairvoyance enough to find a way to re-rail this for…


 

[android654]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

android654 wrote...

You're misusing the word. Theory doesn't simply mean anything your imagination can conjure up. You need to apply critical thinking to discern wether or not something is applicable to the situation you're deciphering. In order for omnipotence to exist then there has to be room for it to exist in basic math all the way up to quantum mechanics. Since the jury is in on both and the need for balance is critical to it's existence, omnipotence can not exist. So no, even if god(s) exist they can not shift what ever they desire at will.

And you are not making any sense.
Omnipotence doesn't require anyone seal of approval to exist. Math and quantum mechanics are omnipotences playthings.

How can math limit omnipotence, when omnipotence can re-write math, the rules of very existence, even the very intangible concepts and ideas to their very core? NOTHING is beyond omnipotence.

So yes, God can do whatever the hell He wants, no amtter how impossible or contrary to logic it may seem.

They think that laws of physics has created God! but On the contrary only God can create the laws of physics or alternative physics...

It is the Ibrahimic approach or something near to my interpretation that may be right ...

And yes, this discussion is better ends here. I have no time to waste for antitheism and better to avoid more arguments.

Stick to putting words in your own mouth because no one has made those claims. Physics can't create because physics has always been, relatively speaking. Physics is the center of entropy in the universe, so it can not create new elements since it would disrupt the balance it maintains.

If you're going to keep making bold assertions, put up some evidence or stop arguing things you don't have the common sense to understand.