176 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Daennikus wrote...
Some religious people are intolerant of atheists, they will not respect someone who doesn't share their beliefs. History is their shameful baggage for this. So, in all fairness, atheists shouldn't feel obligated to respect religious people.

People should respeact pople. Period.

I'm an atheist, and I've been struggling with the idea of people letting themselves "BSed" by religion for any reason whatsoever. But with time I simply don't care about it anymore. What makes me cringe however, are the religions, the dogma, the mass-manipulation of morals and ethics. The so-called "purity" of those who lead using love, guilt, fear. The perversion of the indoctrinated mind. (Oh no, I used that word)

Ahh..you see, you got religious zelots, who think non-believers are perverted and should be purged.
And you got atheistic zelots who think religion is perverted and should be destroyed.

Both types of nutters think they are right.
Topics on religion are a hot topic, specificly because the two extreems come to blow.
Either it's a religious zealot preaching (thus prompting the atheistic zealot to attack), or it's a atheistic zealot lashing out at religion (thus promting religious zealots to retaliate).

If one can't discuss religion without starting a flame war, one should avoid such thread.
Personally over the years I've participated in a few such treads that actually worked, but that's a exception, not the rule.

[termokanden]

Well Lotion Soronnar, history certainly has more cases of people being burned alive and/or tortured in the name of religion than atheism. I don't think this is a one-sided conflict, or a real conflict of all. Atheists are, in the grand scheme of things, a small and not particularly threatening group.

I'm not trying to flame religious people here. Not at all. I'm just pointing out that it's not like there are two equally big sides in some global conflict between atheist and religious zealots.

Atheists are hanging on to their rights to live in peace without religion interfering with their lives in the few places on this planet where it's actually possible. I'm glad to live in one of those countries at least.

Modifié par termokanden, 02 mai 2012 - 09:56 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

^
Two words:

North Korea.

[RedArmyShogun]

LOL ^

[termokanden]

Elton John is dead wrote...

^
Two words:

North Korea.

Oh you know what I mean.

[android654]

North Korea worships their lineage of leaders from the Kim family in a religious way.

[termokanden]

android654 wrote...

North Korea worships their lineage of leaders from the Kim family in a religious way.

Yeah, the place is not exactly ruled by rationality.

Or vampires.

[android654]

They'd be better off with Vampires.

[grregg]

termokanden wrote...

Well Lotion Soronnar, history certainly has more cases of people being burned alive and/or tortured in the name of religion than atheism. I don't think this is a one-sided conflict, or a real conflict of all. Atheists are, in the grand scheme of things, a small and not particularly threatening group.

I'm not trying to flame religious people here. Not at all. I'm just pointing out that it's not like there are two equally big sides in some global conflict between atheist and religious zealots.

Atheists are hanging on to their rights to live in peace without religion interfering with their lives in the few places on this planet where it's actually possible. I'm glad to live in one of those countries at least.

Well, this sort of argument can go on for a while because whenever you point out some particularly murderous group of zealots (religious or otherwise), they are usually disavowed by their less homicidal brethren. Then of course you get to argue who's a true <insert the particular group here> and so on and so forth. I think android already started on that road by pointing out that North Koreans are not atheist enough for his tastes.

[android654]

grregg wrote...
I think android already started on that road by pointing out that North Koreans are not atheist enough for his tastes.

But the majority of the N. Korean population aren't atheists. They have an entity that they have given godhood and they worship his lineage for three generations. Believing that each is a deity in their own right. That's not atheism. A more apt comparison would have been the majority of Chinese, Japanese, Dutch or Koreans. The majority of people in those countries are atheists since they don't subscribe to superstitious beliefs.

[Little Queen]

I had my experiences and i do believe that there are supernatural things out there.

[eroeru]

android654 wrote...

grregg wrote...
I think android already started on that road by pointing out that North Koreans are not atheist enough for his tastes.

But the majority of the N. Korean population aren't atheists. They have an entity that they have given godhood and they worship his lineage for three generations. Believing that each is a deity in their own right. That's not atheism. A more apt comparison would have been the majority of Chinese, Japanese, Dutch or Koreans. The majority of people in those countries are atheists since they don't subscribe to superstitious beliefs.

Are you sure about Japanese? They have the whole awesome Shinto thing going on, and it is most definitely bordering on supernatural. Maybe it doesn't have all the "passion" thing, which is good, but they do have "spirituality" as such (as not pure-logic-founded) interwined into their culture and mentality.

[android654]

[quote]eroeru wrote...

[quote]android654 wrote...

[quote]grregg wrote...
I think android already started on that road by pointing out that North Koreans are not atheist enough for his tastes.
[/quote]

But the majority of the N. Korean population aren't atheists. They have an entity that they have given godhood and they worship his lineage for three generations. Believing that each is a deity in their own right. That's not atheism. A more apt comparison would have been the majority of Chinese, Japanese, Dutch or Koreans. The majority of people in those countries are atheists since they don't subscribe to superstitious beliefs.

[/quote]

Are you sure about Japanese? They have the whole awesome Shinto thing going on, and it is most definitely bordering on supernatural. Maybe it doesn't have all the "passion" thing, which is good, but they do have "spirituality" as such (as not pure-logic-founded) interwined into their culture and mentality.

[/quote]

On the question whether they are religious or not, a majority of 55% of the Japanese participants answered not to be religious, and only 16% answered to be religious. For every second person religion has no importance at all in everyday life, for 38% it is a little bit important, and for only 12% it is either important or very important.After looking at these survey results, it seems that the Japanese are very un-religious.[/quote]

The above was conducted in 2000.

A survey by the Yomiuri Shimbun in 2005 revealed that 72 percent of Japanese do no have a specific religious affiliation and only 25 percent said they believed in religion and 20 percent said they practice a faith[/quote]

So... there ya go about that. Most Japanese people are non-participants in religion, which is what I was getting at.

Modifié par android654, 03 mai 2012 - 12:40 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

[quote]android654 wrote...

[quote]eroeru wrote...

[quote]android654 wrote...

[quote]grregg wrote...
I think android already started on that road by pointing out that North Koreans are not atheist enough for his tastes.
[/quote]

But the majority of the N. Korean population aren't atheists. They have an entity that they have given godhood and they worship his lineage for three generations. Believing that each is a deity in their own right. That's not atheism. A more apt comparison would have been the majority of Chinese, Japanese, Dutch or Koreans. The majority of people in those countries are atheists since they don't subscribe to superstitious beliefs.

[/quote]

Are you sure about Japanese? They have the whole awesome Shinto thing going on, and it is most definitely bordering on supernatural. Maybe it doesn't have all the "passion" thing, which is good, but they do have "spirituality" as such (as not pure-logic-founded) interwined into their culture and mentality.

[/quote]

On the question whether they are religious or not, a majority of 55% of the Japanese participants answered not to be religious, and only 16% answered to be religious. For every second person religion has no importance at all in everyday life, for 38% it is a little bit important, and for only 12% it is either important or very important.After looking at these survey results, it seems that the Japanese are very un-religious.[/quote]

The above was conducted in 2000.

A survey by the Yomiuri Shimbun in 2005 revealed that 72 percent of Japanese do no have a specific religious affiliation and only 25 percent said they believed in religion and 20 percent said they practice a faith[/quote]

So... there ya go about that. Most Japanese people are non-participants in religion, which is what I was getting at. [/quote]

-------------------------------------------------------

It's strange, because in the west only 5-20 % of each country is non-religious.

About Atheist crimes, just three words: Stalin - Mao - Hitler (nope, he wasn't christian) = Over 50 million murders

And the interesting part is the influence of Social Darwinism (mainly atheists) and Nietzsche's 'Will to Power' on WW1 and 2.

- Note - I won't participate in this messed up topic anymore.

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 03 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[grregg]

android654 wrote...

grregg wrote...
I think android already started on that road by pointing out that North Koreans are not atheist enough for his tastes.

But the majority of the N. Korean population aren't atheists. They have an entity that they have given godhood and they worship his lineage for three generations. Believing that each is a deity in their own right. That's not atheism. A more apt comparison would have been the majority of Chinese, Japanese, Dutch or Koreans. The majority of people in those countries are atheists since they don't subscribe to superstitious beliefs.

As I said, we can go on for a while like this.

Now it's my turn to point out that cult of personality is not exactly a religion, especially if we're talking about the supernatural. It can go pretty far, but generally these cults are not considered religions, I believe.

I imagine you would point out that nevertheless they are similar enough to push their members outside of the atheists club.

Then I'd point out that pretty much everyone believes in something that's taken at least partially on faith. And of you take that far enough, then there aren't really many atheists at all.

And so on and so forth, all according to plan and the No true Scotsman fallacy

[Lotion Soronarr]

termokanden wrote...

Well Lotion Soronnar, history certainly has more cases of people being burned alive and/or tortured in the name of religion than atheism. I don't think this is a one-sided conflict, or a real conflict of all. Atheists are, in the grand scheme of things, a small and not particularly threatening group.

True, up to a point. You got to remembe that historicly, atheists havn't been in position to frak things up, and only recently have they grown in numbers.
I wouldn't call them a small group anymore. Nor would I call them non-threatening. No large group is.

And there have been plenty of cases of anti-religious people killing religious ones.
Just in my country, people were rounded up and killed. Pirests murdered and dumped into pits for the sole "crime" of being religious.

Zealotry, bigorty and hatered exist without religion. Religion has been nothing more than an excuse for evil people to commit many crimes in the past. Rarely was it a true cause/motivator. Even the crusades were started more by necessity/defense than hatered.

So even if the wet dream of many athesits were to come true (end of all religion), it wouldn't make the world a better place at all. People would just find antoher excuse to kill and look down on eachother for.

[android654]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...It's strange, because in the west only 5-20 % of each country is non-religious.

About Atheist crimes, just three words: Stalin - Mao - Hitler (nope, he wasn't christian) = Over 50 million murders

And the interesting part is the influence of Social Darwinism (mainly atheists) and Nietzsche's 'Will to Power' on WW1 and 2.

- Note - I won't participate in this messed up topic anymore.

Don't know what Hitler, Stalin and Mao have to do with Japanese people today, but if you want to go down that road it's your fault. Here's the problem when you start making things up, people who know what they're talking about show how full of s**t you are.

Adolf Hitler invoked Christianity as a motivator for his soldiers in preparation of the war and during war times.

"We live by one great commandment, and this was not given to us by an earthly authority  it was given to us by god who created our people." Adolf Hitler

"Always before God and the world, the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills" Adolf Hitler

"This is probably the first time and this is the first country in which people are being taught to realize that, of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for mankind is that each racial species must preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it...recognize the importance of conserving the blood and the race free from intermixture and thereby the racial aspect and character which are God's gift and God's handiwork... As I look back on the great work that has been done during the past four years you will understand quite well that my first feeling is simply one of thankfulness to our Almighty God for having allowed me to bring this work to success. He has blessed our labors and has enabled our people to come through all the obstacles which encompassed them on their way..." Adolf Hitler

"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2

So it's evident that not only was he Christian, but believed his faith imbued him with the responsibility to do what he did. But even with ignoring the man's own statements in speeches to the German people, there's still an abundance of information to show that the german soldiers were religious.

I'm not sure how much German you speak, but you don't need much to read this.


This is an authentic WWII belt buckle with the inscription "God with us." This is also a phrase Hitler coined in the lead up to WWII.

Mao and Stalin are moot points since Atheism wasn't a driving force for their political campaigns.

Modifié par android654, 03 mai 2012 - 02:14 .

[termokanden]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

True, up to a point. You got to remembe that historicly, atheists havn't been in position to frak things up, and only recently have they grown in numbers.

You have a point there. It may also be a bit harsh to just blame religion for the dark ages. That isn't really my point anyway. I do think religious people outnumber the rest of us by far, so don't be too afraid that we'll dominate the world or something.

And there have been plenty of cases of anti-religious people killing religious ones.
Just in my country, people were rounded up and killed. Pirests murdered and dumped into pits for the sole "crime" of being religious.

Just for the record, that is obviously not OK.

Zealotry, bigorty and hatered exist without religion. Religion has been nothing more than an excuse for evil people to commit many crimes in the past. Rarely was it a true cause/motivator. Even the crusades were started more by necessity/defense than hatered.

This is actually a very interesting subject. I am quite convinced that religion has in many cases used as a fake motivation for power struggles and such. I think that's actually quite obvious. But that doesn't mean I think ANY religion you can come up with is completely innocent (remember, it's not a specific religion I'm talking about; a religion can be pretty much anything).

So even if the wet dream of many athesits were to come true (end of all religion), it wouldn't make the world a better place at all. People would just find antoher excuse to kill and look down on eachother for.

Not every atheist hopes to end all religion. Although I would rather call myself non-religious than atheist, I guess I fall into the "atheist" category. I do not wish for an end to religion at all. I wish for religion to be a purely private matter, practiced withing the boundaries of the law (which again should not be dictated by religion). But If all that is in order, I don't care what people choose to believe. In fact, I think it's important that they have that right. So this is my dream I guess.

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

About Atheist crimes, just three words: Stalin - Mao - Hitler (nope, he wasn't christian) = Over 50 million murders

And the interesting part is the influence of Social Darwinism (mainly atheists) and Nietzsche's 'Will to Power' on WW1 and 2.

- Note - I won't participate in this messed up topic anymore.

Then don't make wild claims like saying Hitler's regime was an example of atheist crimes, or that it represents atheist ideologies. As a side note, Nietzsche's work was abused and quite freely interpreted. He wasn't a ****.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2012 - 04:07 .

[chunkyman]

I have seen the power of Wematanye first hand. He exists, no one can deny this.

[Volus Warlord]

If everyone got along, the world would be sooo boring.

[Lotion Soronarr]

termokanden wrote...
Not every atheist hopes to end all religion. Although I would rather call myself non-religious than atheist, I guess I fall into the "atheist" category. I do not wish for an end to religion at all.

Then cudos to you. Most atheists I know (and I know quite a lot of them) would want to see it gone.

I wish for religion to be a purely private matter, practiced withing the boundaries of the law (which again should not be dictated by religion).

Great in theory, impossible in practice. Religion is basicly a way of thinking..a way of life. It comes with morals.
If you were to vote on a law, could you ingore your own morals?
The morality of those making the laws affects those laws. A total separation is not realisticly possible. Regardless who is making the laws.

Then don't make wild claims like saying Hitler's regime was an example of atheist crimes, or that it represents atheist ideologies. As a side note, Nietzsche's work was abused and quite freely interpreted. He wasn't a ****.

Just to chime in on this...technicly...technicly.. those who do not believe in a diety are atheists. Atheists don't have an ideology except for "there are no gods".

It's far harder to differentiate between a "true" atheist and a "fake" one than it is betwen a "true" religious man and a "fake" one. For one, religious people tend to follow a creed, a set of rules. So when they break those rules, you have a legitimate claim that they arne't true believers/followers of the faith.

For example, the main commandement in Christianity is to "love thy fellow man and love God". So when someone claiming to be christian starts killing his neighbor, you can claim he is full of s***. You got some grounds for saying that.

But when someone who claims he doesn't believe in god kills, you can't say he isn't a "true" atheists. So technicly, Stalin does count as an atheist.
Of course, there is no such thing as a global atheist agenda, but there generally isn't such a thing  a a global agenda for any loose group.

[Onkel Cannabia]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

It's strange, because in the west only 5-20 % of each country is non-religious.

About Atheist crimes, just three words: Stalin - Mao - Hitler (nope, he wasn't christian) = Over 50 million murders

And the interesting part is the influence of Social Darwinism (mainly atheists) and Nietzsche's 'Will to Power' on WW1 and 2.

- Note - I won't participate in this messed up topic anymore.

Neither of the three tyrants you mentioned were motivated by atheism. I dare you, ask any historian you know whether their core motivation was atheism. Also, they set up an oppressive regime which propagated typically religious ideals. They basically emulated religious thinking to reinforce their position of power. Hitler was only publically a Christian, privately he was a Deist. Incidentally, he was also a creationist who even had the Origin of Species burned.

Social Darwinism isn't an atheist idea. Breeding had been around for millenia and the idea of superior bloodlines and highborns was deeply embedded in Christian societies. Social Darwinism on the other hand was only espoused by a small minority. The theory of evolution doesn't even support Social Darwinism. If Hitler had understood evolution properly he might never have become the monster that he was.

If you want to find a negative example of atheism in history then find a society violating basic human rights purely based on their disbelief in gods. Good luck with that.

[termokanden]

Skelter192 wrote...

android654 wrote...

Really? Is this honestly a topic for discussion?

This is an improvement over "Are you attractive" and "What you say when someone hurts your feelings" but that's like saying I'd rather get pissed on then **** on.

If you feel other people's discussions are so bad, why are you reading them in the first place? There should be a list somewhere with acceptable topics for discussion so we don't get confused and offend the cool people

That said, this thread is about supernatural creatures, which is why I won't continue the discussion from before.

[Daennikus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Just to chime in on this...technicly...technicly.. those who do not believe in a diety are atheists. Atheists don't have an ideology except for "there are no gods".

My ideology as an atheist: "There is no choice but to do the responsible thing." Just like being in a "religion," following this directive is making my life far more difficult than it could be if I just looked out for myself. 

It's far harder to differentiate between a "true" atheist and a "fake" one than it is betwen a "true" religious man and a "fake" one. For one, religious people tend to follow a creed, a set of rules. So when they break those rules, you have a legitimate claim that they arne't true believers/followers of the faith.

Objectively speaking, you would have to challenge each individual with questions about those rules you speak of. You may find that most atheists share similar moral values. You might even recognize yourself in them. It's simple: stripped of all cultural or religiously-acquired teachings on how to behave and treat others, you find the ground base of common sense that we develop from living in a society. 

On the other hand, you will find that with or without religion, there are good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. 

For example, the main commandement in Christianity is to "love thy fellow man and love God". So when someone claiming to be christian starts killing his neighbor, you can claim he is full of s***. You got some grounds for saying that.

But when someone who claims he doesn't believe in god kills, you can't say he isn't a "true" atheists. So technicly, Stalin does count as an atheist.
Of course, there is no such thing as a global atheist agenda, but there generally isn't such a thing  a a global agenda for any loose group.

Well, religious speeches leave a deep stigma on people, especially if they go postal and the media gets involved. The difference being that this nutcase would generally claim that they're not evil. They would be doing evil things for a "higher purpose."

People are bringing up Stalin, Hitler, Mao... It's the case for those tyrants, because dictatorship is someone doing evil things at the expense of many, because they believe it's the right thing to do. They were full of themselves, and their philosophies - while initially good - were blown out of proportion from power thirst. Denying their humanity was the only way to reach greatness, even if that meant killing lots of people. Lack of religion has nothing to do with this: you know that, in the middle ages, European kings used Christianity to expand their kingdoms, dominate unruly villages through conversion and inquisition, and subdue their people with the wrath of god. These are the "evil" people.

But back to my point: atheism is basically refusing to accept any kind of higher power, or betraying our reason for the sake of an illusion. We are responsible for our actions and we must face the consequences right then and there.