300 réponses à ce sujet

[JKuz]

I don't see the transition from Archaeologist to Information Broker as a huge out of context thing. Both jobs share several key skill sets. Both require sorting through and acquiring information. As well as analyzing said info for relevance or correctness. I mean as an Archaeologist you've got oral histories, written records, myths, legends, etc. As well you've got to do site surveys, look over aerial photographs, long-term geological surveys (As some sites are older than ****** Sapiens itself!) and whatnot; and that is just on Earth! As well as needing to track down the stuff in the first place, such as traveling to some backwater community in the ass end of nowhere to get hundreds of years old baptismal records from a church, or reconstructing old books found in some (Two millenia dead) dudes wallpaper. So that's not a huge stress out for me.

As far as a characterization change, I don't think that's a huge deal either. As an information broker how often does she have to meet with and talk to others? I imagine she mostly operates how you interacted with the SB in ME1: Short Straightforwards communications with little back and forth. And you can see in the game that when she's working she's got a mask on, as she goes from "I will send commandos after you", to something more familiar (And she still doesn't seem good at reading and dealing with people, note her hiring of an SB agent (And as her ONLY agent). A situation that it takes a PC to sort out) I can imagine that part of the two entire years (!) that she's spent as an Information Broker is learning to deal with her solitary nature, at least for work purposes as we have no real evidence of a social life. She just trades being obsessed with Protheans, to being obsessed with corpse retrieval, to being obsessed with recovering Feron, and incidentally to that taking down the SB.

In each incarnation of her character she is still a private, isolated individual with an obsession with information retrieval and analysis. This is arguably better than Garrus, who goes from being Space Dirty Harry (ME1) to the Turian Batman (ME2), and finally... I don't know Space Minister of Reaper Safety and all around Turianbro?

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...

Shepard commanded the fleet retaking Earth, so why wasn't he given the title of Admiral? It doesn't make sense.

Hackett commanded that fleet.   Shepard giving commands at all is what made no sense.  


Not to mention the whole idea of someone eyeballing a firing command in a space battle is silly.  The fleet would be firing when the targeting computers calculated that they had firing solutions.  Which, given the massive ECM advantage of the Reapers, really ought to have been rather a lot later then the Reapers started firing at us.

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Shepard commanded the fleet retaking Earth, so why wasn't he given the title of Admiral? It doesn't make sense.

Hackett commanded that fleet.   Shepard giving commands at all is what made no sense.  


Not to mention the whole idea of someone eyeballing a firing command in a space battle is silly.  The fleet would be firing when the targeting computers calculated that they had firing solutions.  Which, given the massive ECM advantage of the Reapers, really ought to have been rather a lot later then the Reapers started firing at us.

It's for dramatic affect, I'm sure. However, Shepard commanding the fleet, or at least part of it, DOES make sense, they just should have promoted him to admiral. We see such things in SF series like Honor Harrington, which alot of this series is based on.

[Nanuzsh]

FOR GOD SAKES PEOPLE

Liara has been KILLING pirates, merceneries and raiders FOR YEARS LONG BEFORE SHE EVEN MET SHEPARD!


She has more combat experience than either Tali and Ashley.


Ashley has NEVER killed anyone before Eden Prime she only did battle simulations. She states that Eden Prime was her first taste in Real combat.

Same with Tali she never was in a real combat situation until joining Shepard.


Liara one the other hand has been killing mercs,pirates and raiders on different prothean ruins FOR YEARS.

She has more experience in killing then many people in the squad like Legion, Grunt, Kasumi, Tali or Ashley.


And her progression to becoming the shadow broker is no different than Wrex becoming the king of krogans in two years.


In order to be the Broker you need Intelligence and Money. She had both she was already a genius among the Asari and her mother was Matriach with the HIGHEST level access to the Asari government. Her mother was a huge stock holder in one of the research centers of Noveria and had an army of commandos. She has top level acess to the Asari govenrment. So naturally Liara was rich!.

She had money and brains and brawn, so she could quiet easily set up herself as an info broker.

She had motivation = Save Feron
She had the means = Money, Brains and Brawns.

She could challange the Shadow Broker quite easily.



Its not that hard to think of the progression.


To those who have not read redemption.

Liara wasn't initially looking for your body she was trying to find out what really happened to your. She wanted to CONFIRM weather you were really dead.

She recovering your body from the Shadow Broker is a situation she was thrust into. When she saved yuor body from the collectors.

Immidiately after that she was found in a Cerberus vessal.What was she going to do. Keep the body! You think Cerberus would allow that?

She had no choice but to give the body to cerberus and hope for the best.

In the end she said in end of  "Redemption" that she found a new goal and made a new enemy.

Her goal was to rescue Feron and enemy was the Shadow Broker.

The progression is very clearly explained in the comic.

Her saving your body was the result of chance and consequense that she was unwillingly thrust into.

Her wanting revenge on the shadow broker and becoming an info broker was the result of her determination to save a friend who sacrificed himself to save her and Shepard.

All this happened because of cercumstances forced her to make hard choices. After shepard died.

Modifié par Nanuzsh, 23 avril 2012 - 06:22 .

[Zakatak757]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

I'm not really a Liara fan, but I do admit she has perfect breasts. The size, shape and density....all perfect.

At the risk of being a vapid douchebag, I agree with this analysis.

Equally sexy face. Not a fan of the tentacles and plot armor though.

[Vormaerin]

Shepard commanding the fleet makes no sense whatsoever. He has never, at any point, shown that he is any sort of fleet command type person. He's a mid rank SEAL with his own private ship courtesy of being a Spectre (which is some sort of secret police job). Everything he's accomplished has been as a commando, not as a ship commander.

He's never done anything to make you think he's commanded anything larger than a small ship. And not a lot of that, actually. What little naval command experience he has is on detached duty frigate.

Honor Harrington was promoted by serving as a regular line officer in, primarily, regular military operations. Her achievements are almost entirely in naval combat, not ground based commando missions. And, unlike Shepard, she's actually on active duty during most of the series. She doesn't get promoted during the hiatus on Grayson. She doesn't get promoted while in prison.

Shepard, by contrast, is only on active duty for ME1 and ME3. The three years between those two things, he's not a serving officer. Its really hard to get promoted when you aren't on the payroll. And considering that he served with a terrorist organization and blew up a star system during that time, its not like he's gonna be widely considered a hero.

Yeah, he could have been breveted. But Hackett has stacks of people standing around who actually command fleets and have been fighting reapers IN SPACE (not on the ground).

[Vormaerin]

Nanuzsh wrote...


She could challange the Shadow Broker quite easily.

Well, if the yahg shadowbroker is as overrated as Liara's shadowbroker, I have no doubt that this is true. 

The Shadowbroker is a "Dread Pirate Roberts" situation.   There was probably an original Shadowbroker, who was really badass and had his finger on the pulse of the galaxy.  Then he got offed by the Yahg, who was clever but not nearly as clever as the original.   He just traded on the original's resources and reputation.   Then Liara offs him with help from TIM and Shepard.   So there is yet more degradation in actual competence.

Then TIM kicks Liara's ass, resulting in even more badass decay for the Shadowbroker.   Which leads us to the situation in ME3, where the Shadowbroker is completely irrelevant and is completely upstaged by Traynor and thoroughly embarrassed by TIM.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 23 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[Jog0907]

at most shep should be promoted to captain since hes commanding the Normandy already anyway, even quarians treat him as captain in me2 due to their ranking order

[Nanuzsh]

Vormaerin wrote...

Nanuzsh wrote...


She could challange the Shadow Broker quite easily.

Well, if the yahg shadowbroker is as overrated as Liara's shadowbroker, I have no doubt that this is true. 

The Shadowbroker is a "Dread Pirate Roberts" situation.   There was probably an original Shadowbroker, who was really badass and had his finger on the pulse of the galaxy.  Then he got offed by the Yahg, who was clever but not nearly as clever as the original.   He just traded on the original's resources and reputation.   Then Liara offs him with help from TIM and Shepard.   So there is yet more degradation in actual competence.

Then TIM kicks Liara's ass, resulting in even more badass decay for the Shadowbroker.   Which leads us to the situation in ME3, where the Shadowbroker is completely irrelevant and is completely upstaged by Traynor and thoroughly embarrassed by TIM.

This is not true actually. If you do not do Lair of the Shadow broker, TIM doesn't know Liara is the Shadow broker.


This is confirmed on Thessia.

If you do Lotsb.

Tim reffers Liara as the Shadow Broker.

If you don't do LOTSB

Tim reffers to Liara as  your prothean researcher.

If you don't do Lotsb the only people who know about Liara are Shepard and Hackett.


If you don't do Lotsb Liara becomes the broker without Cerberu's intel. But she finds out too late and Feron dies.

Also the dracon trade center is not bombed, Vasir is alive, Sekat is alive. The ship is intact.




Also Liara help Shepard and Hackett out alot. If your hear her banter, she mojorly helps fund the Crucible projects gathering Resources and Scientists for the project herself. As well as coordinating Reaper position and helping refugees. Helping Hackett with her info network. While researching upgrades for Shepard. She does alot of things off panel like Hackett.

Modifié par Nanuzsh, 23 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[Vormaerin]

All of which could be done better from the crucible center on the secret base protected by the Shield fleet elements, rather than from deep in Reaper controlled territory on a ship that is regularly in dangerous situations.

She's certainly doing "stuff" but its all looting the resources of the old shadowbroker. Where is she whenever there is a question of secret info? Absent. She is repeatedly completely blindsided by TIM. I thought she lost the ship either way, but regardless.. she fails utterly to detect the Mars infiltration. She fails utterly to detect the Council coup or anything shady in Udina. She fails utterly to notice that there is anything goofy about the refugee base on Horizon. She knows less about Thessia's secrets than TIM.

Was there even *one* piece of operational intelligence she was able to provide?

As for the "upgrades" (aside from that being an obvious game mechanic rather than a true representation of events), are you seriously arguing that she is personally inventing those things? Because, if not, she could obviously send that information from somewhere else.

[hammyhamstersy]

Nanuzsh wrote...

FOR GOD SAKES PEOPLE

Liara has been KILLING pirates, merceneries and raiders FOR YEARS LONG BEFORE SHE EVEN MET SHEPARD!


She has more combat experience than either Tali and Ashley.


Ashley has NEVER killed anyone before Eden Prime she only did battle simulations. She states that Eden Prime was her first taste in Real combat.

Same with Tali she never was in a real combat situation until joining Shepard.


Liara one the other hand has been killing mercs,pirates and raiders on different prothean ruins FOR YEARS.

She has more experience in killing then many people in the squad like Legion, Grunt, Kasumi, Tali or Ashley.


And her progression to becoming the shadow broker is no different than Wrex becoming the king of krogans in two years.


In order to be the Broker you need Intelligence and Money. She had both she was already a genius among the Asari and her mother was Matriach with the HIGHEST level access to the Asari government. Her mother was a huge stock holder in one of the research centers of Noveria and had an army of commandos. She has top level acess to the Asari govenrment. So naturally Liara was rich!.

She had money and brains and brawn, so she could quiet easily set up herself as an info broker.

She had motivation = Save Feron
She had the means = Money, Brains and Brawns.

She could challange the Shadow Broker quite easily.



Its not that hard to think of the progression.


To those who have not read redemption.

Liara wasn't initially looking for your body she was trying to find out what really happened to your. She wanted to CONFIRM weather you were really dead.

She recovering your body from the Shadow Broker is a situation she was thrust into. When she saved yuor body from the collectors.

Immidiately after that she was found in a Cerberus vessal.What was she going to do. Keep the body! You think Cerberus would allow that?

She had no choice but to give the body to cerberus and hope for the best.

In the end she said in end of  "Redemption" that she found a new goal and made a new enemy.

Her goal was to rescue Feron and enemy was the Shadow Broker.

The progression is very clearly explained in the comic.

Her saving your body was the result of chance and consequense that she was unwillingly thrust into.

Her wanting revenge on the shadow broker and becoming an info broker was the result of her determination to save a friend who sacrificed himself to save her and Shepard.

All this happened because of cercumstances forced her to make hard choices. After shepard died.

Then why was she cowering during that first fight with the krogan??  She says she can handle herself but I don't recall reading anywhere that she's had YEARS of exp killing.

[Vormaerin]

Jog0907 wrote...

at most shep should be promoted to captain since hes commanding the Normandy already anyway, even quarians treat him as captain in me2 due to their ranking order

Captain in English is a tricky word.

It is an O3 designation in the ground forces.  It is an O6 designation in the Navy.    It is also a job assignment.

Anyone commanding a ship is referred to as Captain when functioning in that capacity (ie on his own ship).  Even if a Lieutenant Commander serving as captain of a minesweeper or other small ship.   Frigates like the Normandy usually have Commanders as Captains, IIRC.

On the other extreme, an aircraft carrier often has several officer with the rank of O6 "Captain" serving on it, but only one of them is the Captain of the ship.

[Nanuzsh]

hammyhamstersy wrote...

Nanuzsh wrote...

FOR GOD SAKES PEOPLE

Liara has been KILLING pirates, merceneries and raiders FOR YEARS LONG BEFORE SHE EVEN MET SHEPARD!


She has more combat experience than either Tali and Ashley.


Ashley has NEVER killed anyone before Eden Prime she only did battle simulations. She states that Eden Prime was her first taste in Real combat.

Same with Tali she never was in a real combat situation until joining Shepard.


Liara one the other hand has been killing mercs,pirates and raiders on different prothean ruins FOR YEARS.

She has more experience in killing then many people in the squad like Legion, Grunt, Kasumi, Tali or Ashley.


And her progression to becoming the shadow broker is no different than Wrex becoming the king of krogans in two years.


In order to be the Broker you need Intelligence and Money. She had both she was already a genius among the Asari and her mother was Matriach with the HIGHEST level access to the Asari government. Her mother was a huge stock holder in one of the research centers of Noveria and had an army of commandos. She has top level acess to the Asari govenrment. So naturally Liara was rich!.

She had money and brains and brawn, so she could quiet easily set up herself as an info broker.

She had motivation = Save Feron
She had the means = Money, Brains and Brawns.

She could challange the Shadow Broker quite easily.



Its not that hard to think of the progression.


To those who have not read redemption.

Liara wasn't initially looking for your body she was trying to find out what really happened to your. She wanted to CONFIRM weather you were really dead.

She recovering your body from the Shadow Broker is a situation she was thrust into. When she saved yuor body from the collectors.

Immidiately after that she was found in a Cerberus vessal.What was she going to do. Keep the body! You think Cerberus would allow that?

She had no choice but to give the body to cerberus and hope for the best.

In the end she said in end of  "Redemption" that she found a new goal and made a new enemy.

Her goal was to rescue Feron and enemy was the Shadow Broker.

The progression is very clearly explained in the comic.

Her saving your body was the result of chance and consequense that she was unwillingly thrust into.

Her wanting revenge on the shadow broker and becoming an info broker was the result of her determination to save a friend who sacrificed himself to save her and Shepard.

All this happened because of cercumstances forced her to make hard choices. After shepard died.

Then why was she cowering during that first fight with the krogan??  She says she can handle herself but I don't recall reading anywhere that she's had YEARS of exp killing.

OH!!! I donon't know maybe just MAYBE being trapped in Biotic sphere for weeks without food and water may exhaust a person. Especially if the person's main is Biotics which you know is already exhausting enough.

[Nanuzsh]

Also she has been researching Prothean ruins for 50 years.


And during that time she fought pirates,raiders and mercs. In various ruins. So yes YEARS possibly longer than Shepard's or Garrus's lifetime.

[tractrpl]

hammyhamstersy wrote...]

Then why was she cowering during that first fight with the krogan??  She says she can handle herself but I don't recall reading anywhere that she's had YEARS of exp killing.

Uh yeah she had no weapon and if she joined in the fight, you could be at any level so what rankings should her skills be at? It would be too complicated to have her shown fighting with you without adding a fourth person to your squad which goes against the game mechanics so, yeah, that's why they didn't have her fighting. 

Nice try, though. 

Modifié par tractrpl, 23 avril 2012 - 04:38 .

[rubynorman]

OlympusMons423 wrote...

Liara is a smart woman. She is OK with me. Don;t get the hate. Being a mostly a Tali fan, I don't really get the hate for her either. Both are basically normal women, although different species of course.

I love Liara and Tali is my sister. I don't get it what's with all the hate. What's the point on hating your crew, your friend who would go to hell with you ?

I must say that I love / like all the characters except those bad guys IMO the good guy characters are awesome in their own way.

Modifié par rubynorman, 23 avril 2012 - 04:51 .

[pprrff]

tractrpl wrote...

So, how can you NOT like her? She's so damn useful, like an instant easy switch. Is that why you hate her, because she's the most useful squadmate in the game? Or do you play as an adept already and therefore don't need her? Maybe you don't like her voice actress. What is it?

There are also people who don't like apples for reason, people just have different taste.

For me it's like this

ME1: meh, she's alright, the voice over was not my cup of tea, and I honestly didn't like how any of the human light armor looked on squadmates. I will bring her on hard fights just so she can cast singularity, but the looks of the human light armor really do bother me, a lot in fact.

ME2: so now she is a info broker? Quite a career change from prothean archaeology, but hey, Garrus can go from being a cop to being a vigilante, anything is possible.

LOtSB DLC: Okay, so she is now the Shadow Broker, what just happened....

ME3: I thought I say no in the first game with you, why did we just kiss on the citadel .... (my fault i guess, I got used to picking the upper right choice for paragon I didn't bother reading the description)

[rubynorman]

pprrff wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

So, how can you NOT like her? She's so damn useful, like an instant easy switch. Is that why you hate her, because she's the most useful squadmate in the game? Or do you play as an adept already and therefore don't need her? Maybe you don't like her voice actress. What is it?

There are also people who don't like apples for reason, people just have different taste.

For me it's like this

ME1: meh, she's alright, the voice over was not my cup of tea, and I honestly didn't like how any of the human light armor looked on squadmates. I will bring her on hard fights just so she can cast singularity, but the looks of the human light armor really do bother me, a lot in fact.

ME2: so now she is a info broker? Quite a career change from prothean archaeology, but hey, Garrus can go from being a cop to being a vigilante, anything is possible.

LOtSB DLC: Okay, so she is now the Shadow Broker, what just happened....

ME3: I thought I say no in the first game with you, why did we just kiss on the citadel .... (my fault i guess, I got used to picking the upper right choice for paragon I didn't bother reading the description)

I say no with my VS in the first game and I pick the upper right choice for paragon in the date scene with that person, and ... I have to reload too.

[lillitheris]

I'll repost my statement from the two other love/hate Liara threads…

I've said it above, but I'll certainly say it again: I think the other
LIs got shortchanged by the lack of development resources and time. I
most certainly think that the situation should be remedied both by
measures small (see the small LI improvements thread in the signature)
and large (DLC with expanded content for characters).

I also think that, while I personally feel that given the story as written, most
Shepards would indeed consider Liara their friend, a very close one
even, this is not the case for every Shepard, and should therefore not
be forced in Shepard's actions – Liara can of course remain as adorably
preoccupied with Shepard as she is now.

At the same time, the vitriol against Liara is both unhealthy and unproductive.
Rather than bicker amongst ourselves, would it not be better to present
a unified front, demanding that the other LIs are filled out following
the example set in the Liara character?

[lillitheris]

As a sidenote, I personally found the transition in the 2 years of ME2 deadness to be perfectly logical, especially given the comic. The whole thing is fueled by her love for Shepard – be it requited or not – and develops into an obsession, especially with Feron still in danger.

The final push for the Shadow Broker is, in my view, also in line with who I see as an ambitious character. I earlier made a somewhat uncharitable remark that those who protest this change are afraid of strong, ambitious women and prefer the meek Liara…but I don't really think that's fair to say of everyone, at any rate.

Anyway, that's a long way to say that I don't really see the transition as self-serving or incongruous. You're welcome to disagree, but I'd also invite you to examine whether you really think it is, or if it's just something to use as a wedge. I know I'm guilty of that at times myself.

[pprrff]

lillitheris wrote...


As a sidenote, I personally found the transition in the 2 years of ME2 deadness to be perfectly logical, especially given the comic. The whole thing is fueled by her love for Shepard – be it requited or not – and develops into an obsession, especially with Feron still in danger.

The final push for the Shadow Broker is, in my view, also in line with who I see as an ambitious character. I earlier made a somewhat uncharitable remark that those who protest this change are afraid of strong, ambitious women and prefer the meek Liara…but I don't really think that's fair to say of everyone, at any rate.

Anyway, that's a long way to say that I don't really see the transition as self-serving or incongruous. You're welcome to disagree, but I'd also invite you to examine whether you really think it is, or if it's just something to use as a wedge. I know I'm guilty of that at times myself.

I don't think that was the best way to write the character. I mean narratively of course, I accept these character change and move on, but I would have like to see different thing happen to her. Why not continue with archaelogy? Her archaeological skill is what saved the galaxy, not her skill as the shadow broker. The role of SB is vague enough that I can picture Miranda, Tali, Legion, Moridin or even Kasumi feeling in for that role. I would even say that SB didn't need to be taken out in the first place, and probably would have served a better secondary villain than cerberus.

Okay, that's going way off topic, but I just wanted to say that her becoming information broker is not the best thing that could have been done for the character, in my opinion.

[Lucky Thirteen]

tractrpl wrote...

In both ME1 and ME2 Liara is damn near the most useful squadmate unless you yourself are already an adept. In ME1, you just have her use singularity, all bad guys go up in the air, and you just turkey shoot. Didn't get to kill them all, you just use lift, turkey shoot. One of those shotgun wielders or krogen with regen that needs 1000 bullets to kill? Just use warp. I mean having Liara is almost like cheating, that's how much easier she makes the game merely by having her in her squad. The same goes in ME3, though I used her stasis more instead of singularity , it helped me with using headshots with my sniper rifle. 

So, how can you NOT like her? She's so damn useful, like an instant easy switch. Is that why you hate her, because she's the most useful squadmate in the game? Or do you play as an adept already and therefore don't need her? Maybe you don't like her voice actress. What is it?

I never use Liara and I can plow through insanity on all three games fine. Of course though, I also play as a Sentinel that can nearly do everything.

She simply does not appeal to me. She's nice and all but meh. I think I've said this before, but to me she's like the little sister that my parents forced me to take along when I want to go hang out with my friends. She's done nothing wrong. I care about her sure, but I don't want to hang out with her. She idolizes me like crazy and it's embarrassing sometimes some of the crap that comes out of her mouth about how great I am. She's got nothing interesting to say and it's kind of like she tries to throw herself awkwardly in with the big kids. Then she drove my best friends away because there was no room for them to hang out with her around. Miranda, Thane, Grunt, Jack, Vega on Mars, I'm sorry guys, but my parents are making me take her along. I don't have a choice and there's no more room in my car.

Oh my gosh big sister, look what I can do! Aren't I adorable! I made you a box with your picture on it and put in a bunch of things about how great you are big sister!

Except in the first game she has a lot of awkward conversations about how she has sex and she expresses sexual feelings towards you. Clicking on the video in LotSB and hearing Shepard talk about Azure with Liara that first time was awkard as hell.

[lillitheris]

pprrff wrote...

I don't think that was the best way to write the character. I mean narratively of course, I accept these character change and move on, but I would have like to see different thing happen to her. Why not continue with archaelogy? Her archaeological skill is what saved the galaxy, not her skill as the shadow broker. The role of SB is vague enough that I can picture Miranda, Tali, Legion, Moridin or even Kasumi feeling in for that role. I would even say that SB didn't need to be taken out in the first place, and probably would have served a better secondary villain than cerberus.

Okay, that's going way off topic, but I just wanted to say that her becoming information broker is not the best thing that could have been done for the character, in my opinion.

Sure, but is being dead for two years the best for Shepard, either?

It's certainly not the only possible way she could have developed, and I think she could have been made work had she continued in archaeology but at the same time I don't find it in any way implausible. Sometimes stuff happens and you've got to go with the flow.

Like, you know, reapers trying to destroy all civilization

[pprrff]

I am not actually Liara hating, I just feel the game is less personal the way it is now, and Liara I.teraction contribute to that. But I can sympthize with peoples favorite LI getting trashed on forum, after all I am a Ashley fan, and she get dumped on the most by people.