300 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

I don't hate Liara, I dislike some aspects of her, but I really hate when people force their own opinion on me. I dislike this, why I must love it because you like it.

[Pax of Doom]

Han Shot First wrote...
Jacob saved the Council and much of the Citadel from Batarian terrorists.

Ashley goes from Gunnery Chief to Lt. Commander in the blink of an eye, and becomes the second human Spectre.

Kaidan goes from Lieutenant to Major in the blink of an eye, heads an Alliance biotic special operations unit, and becomes the 2nd human Spectre.

Jacob was ex-Alliance, ex-Corsair, and Cerberus before Shepard.  He had funding and intel from Cerberus.

Ashley was blocked in Alliance because of her grandfather's actions.  When the black mark was cleared, she resumed her rise because of her exceptional abilities.  Spectre appointment was political, no different from Shepard, but she was on the short list.

Kaidan had a good career before Shepard, one that continued after Shepard's death.  He is one of the strongest human biotics, so it would be natural to have him teach other military biotics.  Spectre appointment was political, no different from Shepard, but he was on the short list.

All of these people were proven in their specialties before meeting Shepard, and developed in their roles while under Shepard.  Liara was only proven as a scientist, and that was only briefly revisited on Mars.

[BioWareM0d13]

Reorte wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Even if Tali was in an advisor's role in ME3 she still held the rank of Admiral, which is an amazing accomplishment for someone who is in her twenties and as far as we know, has not held any previous military rank.

I think she says something about her father getting or giving her military training. She lacks experience though.

I spent four years in the Marine Corps and over that time had plenty of training and experience. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to be a general.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Tali. I'm just pointing out that those who are complaing about Liara's switch from archaelogist to information broker, or about her taking down the Shadowbroker, are applying double standards.

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...


no it isnt, it would be comparable if he went from being atheist to being the pope in 2 years

Or non-military to generals saluting you in 6 months? Or from two bit mercenary to leader of a planet in 2 years? Even if it's not a change of character, it's a change of status. Liara changed to an information broker, change in job status, but not change in belief structure. She became SB because she took down the SB, not because she jumped ranks.

first I assume you mean Garrus, he was in the military then went to C-sec then retired, before me3 hes incorporated again as boss of a task force appointed by the primarch himself, generals saluting him makes sense due to the way TURIAN not human ranks work.

second I assume you refer to Wrex in which case you are doing a masterful job of ignoring how Krogan succesion and dominance work, hes a mercenary only because of a self imposed exile when he quits it he goes and does what krogan succesion is based on, familiar connection to one of the previous leaders and beating those who oppose his claim.

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[tractrpl]

Sparatus wrote...

Tali is 24.

Huh. I had to look that up, I don't recall her age ever being mentioned. I had to assume that the pilgrimage being a coming of age ritual and all that she'd be only 17 or so, old for most coming of age rituals on earth.

[Reorte]

Kaelef wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Liara? Archeologist to Shadow Broker? Complete change of personality? Sorry, a leap too far. Given asari lifetimes I could accept it over a few hundred years, possibly.

A few hundred years?!  Wow.  I guess it all depends on what we've seen in our lives.  I've seen people go from being street bums to running their own companies in a year's time.  Liara's story seems no more far fetched than anything else in ME.

Then there's something in the street bum's personality that means he was well suited for running a company (but how big a company?) He just needed the opportunity. ME1 Liara didn't come across at all like a character who would want or be able to leap at a chance like that. She gave the impression of being fairly obsessed in her own small field and that she didn't want or enjoy having to deal with other people. I'm a bit like that myself. I couldn't imagine undergoing the change in personality required to take over and run a large organisation. The idea of having to do it would give me nightmares. People do change over time; I'm not exactly the same person as I was 10 years ago, for example, but it would require centuries for me to change that much.

[tractrpl]

Jog0907 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...


no it isnt, it would be comparable if he went from being atheist to being the pope in 2 years

Or non-military to generals saluting you in 6 months? Or from two bit mercenary to leader of a planet in 2 years? Even if it's not a change of character, it's a change of status. Liara changed to an information broker, change in job status, but not change in belief structure. She became SB because she took down the SB, not because she jumped ranks.

first I assume you mean Garrus, he was in the military then went to C-sec then retired, before me3 hes incorporated again as boss of a task force appointed by the primarch himself, generals saluting him makes sense due to the way TURIAN not human ranks work.

second I assume you refer to Wrex in which case you are doing a masterful job of ignoring how Krogan succesion and dominance work

You assume correctly. This has nothing to do with Liara making SB. It doesn't require hundreds of years for her to make SB, in fact, if it did, that would be contrary to plot. Her mission was to take him down and take him down quickly. If it took her 100 years to do so it would fail in her mission. Remember the SB has nothing to do with being asari, anyone from any species could become the SB.

[kookie28]

I hate Liara for a lot of reasons. Most importantly, she's boring to talk to and literally put me to sleep in ME3. And she's the writer's pet. There are many characters that should have gotten the attention she did, and it's unfortunate that they didn't.

[MrnDpty161]

Han Shot First wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Even if Tali was in an advisor's role in ME3 she still held the rank of Admiral, which is an amazing accomplishment for someone who is in her twenties and as far as we know, has not held any previous military rank.

I think she says something about her father getting or giving her military training. She lacks experience though.

I spent four years in the Marine Corps and over that time had plenty of training and experience. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to be a general.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Tali. I'm just pointing out that those who are complaing about Liara's switch from archaelogist to information broker, or about her taking down the Shadowbroker, are applying double standards.

Semper Fi --- Brothah

[Kaelef]

tractrpl wrote...
She became SB because she took down the SB, not because she jumped ranks.

More importantly, no one was the wiser for it.  No one knew a change had been made, so it's not like other people had to adjust to her change.  Plus, we know that the SB she "took out" became the SB in much the same way.  It's made clear that he was likely nothing more than a two-bit criminal who was in the right place at the right time when he took over.  This establishes a pattern and tells us it doesn't take a super genius or criminal mastermind to get the job.

The story makes it clear that being the SB is largely about managing an information network - one which Liara didn't have to build, but simply take over from the previous SB who had done exactly the same thing.

[Awookie]

Han Shot First wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Even if Tali was in an advisor's role in ME3 she still held the rank of Admiral, which is an amazing accomplishment for someone who is in her twenties and as far as we know, has not held any previous military rank.

I think she says something about her father getting or giving her military training. She lacks experience though.

I spent four years in the Marine Corps and over that time had plenty of training and experience. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to be a general.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Tali. I'm just pointing out that those who are complaing about Liara's switch from archaelogist to information broker, or about her taking down the Shadowbroker, are applying double standards.

Both switches are somewhat illoical. 
But hey, we need to fit in character roles somehow. 

Also : It depends on what rank you were before you left, along with a ton of other factors.  Who knows?  There must have been some other reason that dictated Tali was fit to become an admiral.  Its just that BW never clarified on it.  Same thing on how Liara became the Space Illuminati in 2 years. 

Modifié par Awookie, 22 avril 2012 - 06:58 .

[mauro2222]

Sparatus wrote...

Liara probably has the most bizarre character growth of all of the characters. It feels more like she is being molded to fit specific roles in the plot instead of actually developing as a character.

That's what I dislike

[tractrpl]

Reorte wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Liara? Archeologist to Shadow Broker? Complete change of personality? Sorry, a leap too far. Given asari lifetimes I could accept it over a few hundred years, possibly.

A few hundred years?!  Wow.  I guess it all depends on what we've seen in our lives.  I've seen people go from being street bums to running their own companies in a year's time.  Liara's story seems no more far fetched than anything else in ME.

Then there's something in the street bum's personality that means he was well suited for running a company (but how big a company?) He just needed the opportunity. ME1 Liara didn't come across at all like a character who would want or be able to leap at a chance like that. She gave the impression of being fairly obsessed in her own small field and that she didn't want or enjoy having to deal with other people. I'm a bit like that myself. I couldn't imagine undergoing the change in personality required to take over and run a large organisation. The idea of having to do it would give me nightmares. People do change over time; I'm not exactly the same person as I was 10 years ago, for example, but it would require centuries for me to change that much.

Being part of her personality is irrelevent. She stumbled across the opportunity. All she wanted was to take him down, but she took over as SB to help Shepard.  My personality change is much more extreme than hers, and it only took me a year or so to change like that. Liara did change slowly. She changed from scientist to information broker, something she needed to become to track down Feron. 

[Reorte]

Han Shot First wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Even if Tali was in an advisor's role in ME3 she still held the rank of Admiral, which is an amazing accomplishment for someone who is in her twenties and as far as we know, has not held any previous military rank.

I think she says something about her father getting or giving her military training. She lacks experience though.

I spent four years in the Marine Corps and over that time had plenty of training and experience. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to be a general.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Tali. I'm just pointing out that those who are complaing about Liara's switch from archaelogist to information broker, or about her taking down the Shadowbroker, are applying double standards.

That's why I said that Tali's shift in position is somewhat more implausible than Wrex's, even taking into account the fact that she was part of a galaxy-impacting mission and had more experience with the geth than any other quarian. It would've made a great deal of sense to have her as an advisor to the admiralty board (what happens if she's been exiled, by the way?)

[MrnDpty161]

and somehow, someone decided to buy himself a Yagh as a pet, educated it --- and at some point, the pet killed the orginal SB...and wallah!

[BioWareM0d13]

Pax of Doom wrote...

.Ashley was blocked in Alliance because of her grandfather's actions.  When the black mark was cleared, she resumed her rise because of her exceptional abilities.  Spectre appointment was political, no different from Shepard, but she was on the short list.

Going from Gunnery Chief (Staff NCO) to Lt. Commander (the equivalent of a field grade officer) in the blink of an eye, is a ridiculously meteoric rise that would never occur in the real world.

It is no less sudden than Liara going from archaeologist to information broker.

Kaidan had a good career before Shepard, one that continued after Shepard's death.  He is one of the strongest human biotics, so it would be natural to have him teach other military biotics.  Spectre appointment was political, no different from Shepard, but he was on the short list.

Same boat as Ashley. Going from Lieutenant to Major in the blink of an eye is a fairly ridiculous jump in rank, though not as outlandish as Ashley's. He at least was already a commissioned officer.

Also : It depends on what rank you were before you left, along with a ton of other factors. Who knows? There must have been some other reason that dictated Tali was fit to become an admiral. Its just that BW never clarified on it. Same thing on how Liara became the Space Illuminati in 2 years.

This is where head canon comes in.

In my head canon Benezia had her own private spy network (which is how she & Saren knew each other), and following ME1 Liara got in touch with some of her mother's old contacts, and accessed some of her old files, putting together the basics for her own operation.

I have Tali spending much of her youth in Quarian 'schools' that groom people for high command.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 22 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[MrnDpty161]

Liara's character seems bizzare because she was part of the wished cannon plot by the Mass Effect writers.

[Reorte]

tractrpl wrote...

Being part of her personality is irrelevent. She stumbled across the opportunity. All she wanted was to take him down, but she took over as SB to help Shepard.  My personality change is much more extreme than hers, and it only took me a year or so to change like that. Liara did change slowly. She changed from scientist to information broker, something she needed to become to track down Feron.

Sorry, I don't buy that for a second. It's a personality shift of an order that would normally get a shrink interested.

[Mallorn]

Ok, she was pretty useful in ME1, but what it has to do with her character?
I don't like her because:
1. Of her creepy monotone. Angry, happy, sad, she sounds almost the same to me.
2. She seems indifferent about Benezia's death.
3. She acts like her buisness is more important than Shepard's buisness. Shepard's buisness includes saving the galaxy, but noo, Shadow Broker, Shadow Broker, revenge, etc.

[MrnDpty161]

Ashley's appointments came from doing special missions for Anderson and it most likely put her under the notice of people like Hackett and the Alliance council. The move to push her to Spectre status was - SPOIOIOIOEIOIOIOII#$@@#$@#$@$ SPOILER SPOILER *************** - was that damned Counciler Udina's political move in hopes she would get in the middle of Shepard when the time was right.

So she was sort of shoed in by the right folks at the right time.

[Reorte]

Han Shot First wrote...

Same boat as Ashley. Going from Lieutenant to Major in the blink of an eye is a fairly ridiculous jump in rank, though not as outlandish as Ashley's. He at least was already a commissioned officer.

Is it? I've never really puzzled out ME's odd mix of naval and army ranks. If it's navy lieutenant to army major it's not particularly far-fetched.