300 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaelef]

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't hate Liara, I dislike some aspects of her, but I really hate when people force their own opinion on me. I dislike this, why I must love it because you like it.

Yeah, I don't think anyone has to love or even like any character in the story.  I just think some of the negatives being thrown at the Liara character come more from just not liking her character rather than her character being treated radically different from the others.

Speaking of which: I don't hate Ashley, but I'm not a fan. That said... am I the only one who thought her becoming a Spectre was completely inappropriate?  It seems to me the only reason this happened was that Udina wanted someone outside the law that he could control/manipulate?  I thought it was surprising that Ashley never mentions this as a possibility.

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Liara? Archeologist to Shadow Broker? Complete change of personality? Sorry, a leap too far. Given asari lifetimes I could accept it over a few hundred years, possibly.

A few hundred years?!  Wow.  I guess it all depends on what we've seen in our lives.  I've seen people go from being street bums to running their own companies in a year's time.  Liara's story seems no more far fetched than anything else in ME.

Then there's something in the street bum's personality that means he was well suited for running a company (but how big a company?) He just needed the opportunity. ME1 Liara didn't come across at all like a character who would want or be able to leap at a chance like that. She gave the impression of being fairly obsessed in her own small field and that she didn't want or enjoy having to deal with other people. I'm a bit like that myself. I couldn't imagine undergoing the change in personality required to take over and run a large organisation. The idea of having to do it would give me nightmares. People do change over time; I'm not exactly the same person as I was 10 years ago, for example, but it would require centuries for me to change that much.

Being part of her personality is irrelevent. She stumbled across the opportunity. All she wanted was to take him down, but she took over as SB to help Shepard.  My personality change is much more extreme than hers, and it only took me a year or so to change like that. Liara did change slowly. She changed from scientist to information broker, something she needed to become to track down Feron. 

sure of course she decides to do so quickly, the problem is her magical ability to get the resources needed  to do so, its cringe worthy because shes supposed to have money problem in early me2 yet she can end with enough money to send merc to the slaughtre and somehow have a ship land fine in the sb base even though youre supposed to need stealth tech to get close enought without him shooting your ship down

[tractrpl]

MrnDpty161 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Even if Tali was in an advisor's role in ME3 she still held the rank of Admiral, which is an amazing accomplishment for someone who is in her twenties and as far as we know, has not held any previous military rank.

I think she says something about her father getting or giving her military training. She lacks experience though.

I spent four years in the Marine Corps and over that time had plenty of training and experience. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to be a general.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Tali. I'm just pointing out that those who are complaing about Liara's switch from archaelogist to information broker, or about her taking down the Shadowbroker, are applying double standards.

Semper Fi --- Brothah

Roger that, Semper Fi.  I completely concur with this statement. In my opinion, Liara becoming SB is more believeable than Garrus being saluted by generals, Tali becoming admiral, and even Ashley being promoted from senior NCO to senior officer, not only skipping OCS, but 3 officer ranks at the same time. Seems like they did it just to give her the same rank as Kaiden, who would only be promoted by 1 to make Lt. Cdr.

[tractrpl]

Kaelef wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't hate Liara, I dislike some aspects of her, but I really hate when people force their own opinion on me. I dislike this, why I must love it because you like it.

Yeah, I don't think anyone has to love or even like any character in the story.  I just think some of the negatives being thrown at the Liara character come more from just not liking her character rather than her character being treated radically different from the others.

Speaking of which: I don't hate Ashley, but I'm not a fan. That said... am I the only one who thought her becoming a Spectre was completely inappropriate?  It seems to me the only reason this happened was that Udina wanted someone outside the law that he could control/manipulate?  I thought it was surprising that Ashley never mentions this as a possibility.

Well Udina made her Spectre and he's a traitor, so yes it was inappropriate. He hoped to use her against Shepard.

[Kaelef]

tractrpl wrote...

Well Udina made her Spectre and he's a traitor, so yes it was inappropriate. He hoped to use her against Shepard.

Yeah, I was just surprised nobody mentioned this either before, or certainly after, Udina's intentions were discovered.

tractrpl wrote...
Garrus being saluted by generals...

That struck me as weird, too.  I like Garrus a lot, but that seemed unlikely.

Modifié par Kaelef, 22 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[ENorman94]

I dont have a problem with her plot relevance. Each character cant have equal plot relevance. But they should have equal quality. You can have little plot relevance yet still have a quality appearance.

The quality of the other squamates and former squadmates are not on the same par as Liara's, whether it be romance or just plain interaction. That is what bugs me about her. The time-capsule scene with Liara is more emotional and fulfilling than Miranda's entire role in the game.

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

MrnDpty161 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Even if Tali was in an advisor's role in ME3 she still held the rank of Admiral, which is an amazing accomplishment for someone who is in her twenties and as far as we know, has not held any previous military rank.

I think she says something about her father getting or giving her military training. She lacks experience though.

I spent four years in the Marine Corps and over that time had plenty of training and experience. That doesn't mean I'm qualified to be a general.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing Tali. I'm just pointing out that those who are complaing about Liara's switch from archaelogist to information broker, or about her taking down the Shadowbroker, are applying double standards.

Semper Fi --- Brothah

Roger that, Semper Fi.  I completely concur with this statement. In my opinion, Liara becoming SB is more believeable than Garrus being saluted by generals, Tali becoming admiral, and even Ashley being promoted from senior NCO to senior officer, not only skipping OCS, but 3 officer ranks at the same time. Seems like they did it just to give her the same rank as Kaiden, who would only be promoted by 1 to make Lt. Cdr.

tali and garrus military ranks in me3 work because the way their society works and the state of war (shortening  of truian sucession lines and quarian use of clan name popularity and need of experts) justifies these things, Liara jump to SB deosnt because it can only work without the normandy by cheapening the capabilites of the previous SB

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 07:13 .

[tractrpl]

Kaelef wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Well Udina made her Spectre and he's a traitor, so yes it was inappropriate. He hoped to use her against Shepard.

Yeah, I was just surprised nobody mentioned this either before, or certainly after, Udina's intentions were discovered.

PLOT ARMOR /sarcasm

Seriously, yes, it's questionable. However, Shepard is the first human Spectre. Does Ash/Kaiden deserve it? Well, it's hard to measure up to Shepard. If human spectres have to measure up to shepard then no one should be spectre ever again.

[Han Shot First]

Garrus also is somewhere in the line of succession for Palaven as well, which is kind of odd for someone who is an ex cop. I know Palaeven is getting hammered, but you'd think there would be many people still left in the chain (politicians and military leaders) who would be up for Primarch before Garrus.

Just to be clear, so I hopefully don't get flamed: Garrus may be my favorite character in the series. He's Shepard's brother from a Turian mother. But Liara's accomplishments are no more outlandish than his.



@ MrnDpty

Semper Fi!

[Kaelef]

ENorman94 wrote...

The quality of the other squamates and former squadmates are not on the same par as Liara's, whether it be romance or just plain interaction. That is what bugs me about her. The time-capsule scene with Liara is more emotional and fulfilling than Miranda's entire role in the game.

Totally agree that Liara's character got a lot more attention than most of the others. I would've liked to have seen more done with all the others - I probably would've liked Miranda more than I did if there was more to her.  I just don't see this as anything to hold against Liara... just whoever made decisions on allocating writing resources...

[Kaelef]

Jog0907 wrote...

tali and garrus military ranks in me3 work because the way their society works and the state of war (shortening  of truian sucession lines and quarian use of clan name popularity and need of experts) justifies these things, Liara jump to SB deosnt because it can only work without the normandy by cheapening the capabilites of the previous SB

You have no more reason to justify Tali or Garrus' moves than you do Liara's.  It's all just head-canon.

[tractrpl]

jreezy wrote...

tractrpl wrote...
 ...Ashley being promoted from senior NCO to senior officer, not only skipping OCS...

Actually Ashley was an Operations Chief in ME2, she didn't skip that.

*facepalm* Civilians and their ignorance of military ranks. 

Gunnery Chief is a merging of the Navy Chief Petty Officer rank and the Marine Gunnery Seargant Ranks. Operations Chief is one rank above, but still enlisted.  They are enlisted ranks. The highest ranking enlisted guy has to salute the lowest ranking officer, even though the officer just got his commision yesterday and that Gunnery Chief (or operations chief) has been in the military for 40 years. Sound unfair? That's because it was created in the days when officers were "gentlemen" and enlistees were peasants. Officers are always of higher rank cause they're born that way. Now that justification isn't used anymore, but the structure remains. Lowest, most inexperienced officer always outranks even the most experienced enlisted person of the highest possible rank.

What Ash did is that she went from Enlisted to Officer, presumably without going through OCS (an enlisted ot officer induction process) which makes a person an O-1 (ensign or 2nd lieutenant). But instead of being an O-1, she's an O-4, three ranks higher. We never saw her get her initial commission (transfer from enlisted to officer) and we never saw her go from O-1 to O-2 (Ensign to Lieutenant Jr. Grade), O-2 to O-3 (Lieutenant, Kaiden and Joker's rank), then O-3 to O-4 (Lt. Cdr, her rank in ME3, also the same rank as Pressly).

Modifié par tractrpl, 22 avril 2012 - 07:23 .

[MACharlie1]

Liara's was just sloppy, fan-fic esque writing. Nothing to do with her job jumpings. Just the way she is supposed to come off. When she first enters on Mars, James is supposed to be "enamored by the beautiful asari". I'm serious. It says that about 4 times in just her entry dialog notes.

And then when Thessia falls, shes all wheepy and everyone has to comfort her. Was she not there when Palavan was burning and Garrus was...right there? I didn't see Shepard or Garrus getting all misty eyed for their homeworlds or anyone else feeling sorry for them. It was a forced attempt to make us feel sorry for Liara. A pathetic one nonetheless.

[tractrpl]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Liara's was just sloppy, fan-fic esque writing. Nothing to do with her job jumpings. Just the way she is supposed to come off. When she first enters on Mars, James is supposed to be "enamored by the beautiful asari". I'm serious. It says that about 4 times in just her entry dialog notes.

And then when Thessia falls, shes all wheepy and everyone has to comfort her. Was she not there when Palavan was burning and Garrus was...right there? I didn't see Shepard or Garrus getting all misty eyed for their homeworlds or anyone else feeling sorry for them. It was a forced attempt to make us feel sorry for Liara. A pathetic one nonetheless.

She was, if you bought her to palaven. She comforted both shepard and Garrus. Had a long conversation about it, in fact. 

[tractrpl]

Kaelef wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

tali and garrus military ranks in me3 work because the way their society works and the state of war (shortening  of truian sucession lines and quarian use of clan name popularity and need of experts) justifies these things, Liara jump to SB deosnt because it can only work without the normandy by cheapening the capabilites of the previous SB

You have no more reason to justify Tali or Garrus' moves than you do Liara's.  It's all just head-canon.

Exactly right. No more justification. In fact, Liara has more justification because there's no structure needed at all. She just beat some Yagh up and took his sh*t. End of discussion.

[tractrpl]

Sparatus wrote...

Don't forget Shepard drooling all over her in the comic for Mass Effect 2.

I (the player) remember seeing the comic. I don't recall my Shep ever drooling over Liara, even when he romanced her, and even when he didn't.

[Kaelef]

MACharlie1 wrote...

And then when Thessia falls, shes all wheepy and everyone has to comfort her. Was she not there when Palavan was burning and Garrus was...right there? I didn't see Shepard or Garrus getting all misty eyed for their homeworlds or anyone else feeling sorry for them. It was a forced attempt to make us feel sorry for Liara. A pathetic one nonetheless.

Um... she was watching her planet being destroyed. I think we can give a character a break for having an emotional moment when their planet is being destroyed.  And Garrus, Shepard and Liara all acknowledged each-others' feelings about what was happening to their respective homeworlds.  Again, Liara wasn't particularly different from the other characters iin this regard.

What made Thessia special for Shepard was that he gave his personal guarantee that he would keep Thessia from falling.  That doesn't work out as planned, so he feels particularly responsible in that case.

Modifié par Kaelef, 22 avril 2012 - 07:31 .

[Han Shot First]

Sparatus wrote...

As I said before, the person who retrieved Shepard's body should have been Miranda or Jacob. Liara just made no sense.

Or not kill Shepard in the first place. That was stupid.

Neither Jacob or Miranda had any emotional connection to Shepard yet.

Liara made sense because besides having the necessary skillset, she was either devoted to recovering Shepard's corpse because he had been her lover, or if unromanced because he was a fallen comrade-in-arms. TIM needed someone with an emotional connection to Shepard, because people are going to be less likely to risk their own lives over a corpse if the mission gets too hairy, *unless* there are emotional stakes involved.

In that, TIM proves once again to be both an excellent judge of what tools are needed for tasks at hand, and to be a master manipulator.

[ramnozack]

This is all I have to say to Liara haters.

[Kaelef]

ramnozack wrote...

This is all I have to say to Liara haters.

/thread