300 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

tractrpl wrote...

In both ME1 and ME2 Liara is damn near the most useful squadmate unless you yourself are already an adept. In ME1, you just have her use singularity, all bad guys go up in the air, and you just turkey shoot. Didn't get to kill them all, you just use lift, turkey shoot. One of those shotgun wielders or krogen with regen that needs 1000 bullets to kill? Just use warp. I mean having Liara is almost like cheating, that's how much easier she makes the game merely by having her in her squad. The same goes in ME3, though I used her stasis more instead of singularity , it helped me with using headshots with my sniper rifle. 

So, how can you NOT like her? She's so damn useful, like an instant easy switch. Is that why you hate her, because she's the most useful squadmate in the game? Or do you play as an adept already and therefore don't need her? Maybe you don't like her voice actress. What is it?

She's useful enough in combat. She complements my ME3 Sentinel very well, what with Stasis and Singularity setting up Warp detonations. 

My distaste for Liara comes from her canon mega-relevance, and Shepard's strange infatuation with her, even if she isn't romanced. For example, look at the Genesis comic. Before you're given the choice of a romance pick, Shepard delivers this line: "Liara, like most asari, was as beautiful as she was intelligent."

Maybe it's just me, but that came off as a little creepy, since Shepard knew nothing about Liara at that point in time. Plus there are the numerous Citadel conversations with Liara in ME3 that are borderline flirting, even if you turn her advances down and pursue someone else.

Otherwise, she has, over the course of ME2 and 3, been inflated to the 2nd most important character in the franchise, behind Shepard. She recovered his corpse (Which itself is odd. Why not Garrus or Tali, or Ashley?), she's the Shadow Broker, and she's the one who discovered the Crucible plans. Liara is literally the entire reason the galaxy still has life in it. No single character needs that much appraisal.

Modifié par o Ventus, 22 avril 2012 - 07:33 .

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

tali and garrus military ranks in me3 work because the way their society works and the state of war (shortening  of truian sucession lines and quarian use of clan name popularity and need of experts) justifies these things, Liara jump to SB deosnt because it can only work without the normandy by cheapening the capabilites of the previous SB

You have no more reason to justify Tali or Garrus' moves than you do Liara's.  It's all just head-canon.

Exactly right. No more justification. In fact, Liara has more justification because there's no structure needed at all. She just beat some Yagh up and took his sh*t. End of discussion.

bs liara rank is a result of exxagerated capabiltiies, garrus and tali are justified becasue they can be the result of both their skill and the way their society works. Liara happens to always be the SB in me3 regardless of the resources she has which is what leads to people disbelief, garrus, tali and wrex reach their rank because their society inner workings allowed them to do so, and in case of tali her rank can be never earned should things be different in me2.

[Stormer90]

Liara is a good character, I just don't like how she is shoved down my throat as a "must have" squad member every other mission.

[Han Shot First]

Otherwise, she has, over the course of ME2 and 3, been inflated to the 2nd most important character in the franchise, behind Shepard. She recovered his corpse (Which itself is odd. Why not Garrus or Tali, or Ashley?), she's the Shadow Broker, and she's the one who discovered the Crucible plans. Liara is literally the entire reason the galaxy still has life in it. No single character needs that much appraisal.

Of the squadmates you listed only Garrus was a viable option for TIM's plans.

The Virmire Survivor is active duty military, and as such doesn't have freedom of movement. They have to go where their ordered, and after the destruction of the Normandy they would have been assigned to other commands. Additionally, the VS hates Cerberus. It is unlikely they'd even give TIM or one of his agents a chance to make their pitch even if they had freedom of movement, and they don't.

Tali is a Quarian first and foremost and had a duty to return to the Migrant Fleet after her pilgrammage. She also hates Cerberus, because of a Cerberus attack on the Migrant Fleet. Like the VS she was unlikely to even listen to TIM's pitch unless it was being sold by Shepard himself. In ME2 she agrees to play along with Cerberus *only* because the Normandy SR2 is Shepard's show. She makes it clear that she's working for Shepard, not Cerberus. Also in practical terms, she'd be the least capable of recovering Shepard's corpse. She is an engineer rather than a front line soldier (Garrus) or a powerful biotic (Liara), and a minor suit tear could potentially kill her.

Wrex, as someone who has done quite a bit of work as a mercenary, would probably have been willing to work with Cerberus despite their anti-alien agenda. He has probably done work for quite a few clients that he hasn't necessary seen eye to eye with, so long as the pay was right. Nevertheless, he was busy taking control of clan Urdnot and attempting to unify the clans on Tuchanka through both military force and diplomacy. In short, he was busy and had bigger fish to fry.

That leaves Garrus and Liara.

While the writers could have had TIM settle on Garrus, it would have created the problem of him being both space batman on Omega and recoverer of Shepard's corpse. It also sets up a rivalry between Garrus & the Shadowbroker, instead of Liara & the Shadowbroker, which means it would have made more sense for Garrus to take him down than Liara. At what point is too much going on with Garrus, and do his accomplishments start to seem outlandish?

For the writers it made more sense to have TIM go with Liara, IMO.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 22 avril 2012 - 07:47 .

[ENorman94]

Did anyone else have their shepard say (in reference to Liara) "no one messes with my girl" to aytheta...even if they werent romancing Liara?

[Reorte]

Jog0907 wrote...

bs liara rank is a result of exxagerated capabiltiies, garrus and tali are justified becasue they can be the result of both their skill and the way their society works. Liara happens to always be the SB in me3 regardless of the resources she has which is what leads to people disbelief, garrus, tali and wrex reach their rank because their society inner workings allowed them to do so, and in case of tali her rank can be never earned should things be different in me2.

Even then Tali and Garrus jumping into those positions stretches credubility somewhat. Not entirely - different species on different planets can run things differently, and any artificially-created system can always be fiddled with at will. If that's done though there needs to be a good explanation as to just how that society operates differently, or why there's such an exceptional change in the status quo (just being part of Shepard's mission isn't enough).

Liara, on the other hand, has a massive personality change. To me, that's just verging on impossible (it's never established that asari psychology is massively different from human psychology). Imagine the shyest, most self-contained person you know all of a sudden embarking on a hugely successful career as a stand-up comic.

I don't hate Liara, I just dislike how she was handled.

[Reorte]

ENorman94 wrote...

Did anyone else have their shepard say (in reference to Liara) "no one messes with my girl" to aytheta...even if they werent romancing Liara?

I wasn't romancing Liara and never even met her. I may have just missed that part of course.

[o Ventus]

ENorman94 wrote...

Did anyone else have their shepard say (in reference to Liara) "no one messes with my girl" to aytheta...even if they werent romancing Liara?

*Raises hand*

[o Ventus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Otherwise, she has, over the course of ME2 and 3, been inflated to the 2nd most important character in the franchise, behind Shepard. She recovered his corpse (Which itself is odd. Why not Garrus or Tali, or Ashley?), she's the Shadow Broker, and she's the one who discovered the Crucible plans. Liara is literally the entire reason the galaxy still has life in it. No single character needs that much appraisal.

Of the squadmates you listed only Garrus was a viable option for TIM's plans.

The Virmire Survivor is active duty military, and as such doesn't have freedom of movement. They have to go where their ordered, and after the destruction of the Normandy they would have been assigned to other commands. Additionally, the VS hates Cerberus. It is unlikely they'd even give TIM or one of his agents a chance to make their pitch even if they had freedom of movement, and they don't.

Tali is a Quarian first and foremost and had a duty to return to the Migrant Fleet after her pilgrammage. She also hates Cerberus, because of a Cerberus attack on the Migrant Fleet. Like the VS she was unlikely to even listen to TIM's pitch unless it was being sold by Shepard himself. In ME2 she agrees to play along with Cerberus *only* because the Normandy SR2 is Shepard's show. She makes it clear that she's working for Shepard, not Cerberus. Also in practical terms, she'd be the least capable of recovering Shepard's corpse. She is an engineer rather than a front line soldier (Garrus) or a powerful biotic (Liara), and a minor suit tear could potentially kill her.

Wrex, as someone who has done quite a bit of work as a mercenary, would probably have been willing to work with Cerberus despite their anti-alien agenda. He has probably done work for quite a few clients that he hasn't necessary seen eye to eye with, so long as the pay was right. Nevertheless, he was busy taking control of clan Urdnot and attempting to unify the clans on Tuchanka through both military force and diplomacy. In short, he was busy and had bigger fish to fry.

That leaves Garrus and Liara.

While the writers could have had TIM settle on Garrus, it would have created the problem of him being both space batman on Omega and recoverer of Shepard's corpse. It also sets up a rivalry between Garrus & the Shadowbroker, instead of Liara & the Shadowbroker, which means it would have made more sense for Garrus to take him down than Liara. At what point is too much going on with Garrus, and do his accomplishments start to seem outlandish?

For the writers it made more sense to have TIM go with Liara, IMO.

Or they could have just, you know, sent Miranda and Jacob, the two main characters for Lazarus.

[tractrpl]

Jog0907 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

tali and garrus military ranks in me3 work because the way their society works and the state of war (shortening  of truian sucession lines and quarian use of clan name popularity and need of experts) justifies these things, Liara jump to SB deosnt because it can only work without the normandy by cheapening the capabilites of the previous SB

You have no more reason to justify Tali or Garrus' moves than you do Liara's.  It's all just head-canon.

Exactly right. No more justification. In fact, Liara has more justification because there's no structure needed at all. She just beat some Yagh up and took his sh*t. End of discussion.

bs liara rank is a result of exxagerated capabiltiies, garrus and tali are justified becasue they can be the result of both their skill and the way their society works. Liara happens to always be the SB in me3 regardless of the resources she has which is what leads to people disbelief, garrus, tali and wrex reach their rank because their society inner workings allowed them to do so, and in case of tali her rank can be never earned should things be different in me2.

LOL, what a joke. I might as well say Liara is shadow broker because of how HER SOCIETY works. 

[tractrpl]

Sparatus wrote...

We actually know enough about quarian and turian society to judge that Garrus and Tali are the exception, not the rule.

Exactly, which means that accepting Liara as SB is no more ridiculous than the position they take in the game.

[Han Shot First]

o Ventus wrote...


Or they could have just, you know, sent Miranda and Jacob, the two main characters for Lazarus.

On page 6 I already convered why neither of those people were viable options:

Neither Jacob or Miranda had any emotional connection to Shepard yet.

Liara made sense because besides having the necessary skillset, she was either devoted to recovering Shepard's corpse because he had been her lover, or if unromanced because he was a fallen comrade-in-arms. TIM needed someone with an emotional connection to Shepard, because people are going to be less likely to risk their own lives over a corpse if the mission gets too hairy, *unless* there are emotional stakes involved.

In that, TIM proves once again to be both an excellent judge of what tools are needed for tasks at hand, and to be a master manipulator.

[Sdrol117]

Garrus and Wrex were by far better squadmates in ME1.

[tractrpl]

Han Shot First wrote...

Otherwise, she has, over the course of ME2 and 3, been inflated to the 2nd most important character in the franchise, behind Shepard. She recovered his corpse (Which itself is odd. Why not Garrus or Tali, or Ashley?), she's the Shadow Broker, and she's the one who discovered the Crucible plans. Liara is literally the entire reason the galaxy still has life in it. No single character needs that much appraisal.

Of the squadmates you listed only Garrus was a viable option for TIM's plans.

The Virmire Survivor is active duty military, and as such doesn't have freedom of movement. They have to go where their ordered, and after the destruction of the Normandy they would have been assigned to other commands. Additionally, the VS hates Cerberus. It is unlikely they'd even give TIM or one of his agents a chance to make their pitch even if they had freedom of movement, and they don't.

Tali is a Quarian first and foremost and had a duty to return to the Migrant Fleet after her pilgrammage. She also hates Cerberus, because of a Cerberus attack on the Migrant Fleet. Like the VS she was unlikely to even listen to TIM's pitch unless it was being sold by Shepard himself. In ME2 she agrees to play along with Cerberus *only* because the Normandy SR2 is Shepard's show. She makes it clear that she's working for Shepard, not Cerberus. Also in practical terms, she'd be the least capable of recovering Shepard's corpse. She is an engineer rather than a front line soldier (Garrus) or a powerful biotic (Liara), and a minor suit tear could potentially kill her.

Wrex, as someone who has done quite a bit of work as a mercenary, would probably have been willing to work with Cerberus despite their anti-alien agenda. He has probably done work for quite a few clients that he hasn't necessary seen eye to eye with, so long as the pay was right. Nevertheless, he was busy taking control of clan Urdnot and attempting to unify the clans on Tuchanka through both military force and diplomacy. In short, he was busy and had bigger fish to fry.

That leaves Garrus and Liara.

While the writers could have had TIM settle on Garrus, it would have created the problem of him being both space batman on Omega and recoverer of Shepard's corpse. It also sets up a rivalry between Garrus & the Shadowbroker, instead of Liara & the Shadowbroker, which means it would have made more sense for Garrus to take him down than Liara. At what point is too much going on with Garrus, and do his accomplishments start to seem outlandish?

For the writers it made more sense to have TIM go with Liara, IMO.

Well said. 

[Jog0907]

Reorte wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

bs liara rank is a result of exxagerated capabiltiies, garrus and tali are justified becasue they can be the result of both their skill and the way their society works. Liara happens to always be the SB in me3 regardless of the resources she has which is what leads to people disbelief, garrus, tali and wrex reach their rank because their society inner workings allowed them to do so, and in case of tali her rank can be never earned should things be different in me2.

Even then Tali and Garrus jumping into those positions stretches credubility somewhat. Not entirely - different species on different planets can run things differently, and any artificially-created system can always be fiddled with at will. If that's done though there needs to be a good explanation as to just how that society operates differently, or why there's such an exceptional change in the status quo (just being part of Shepard's mission isn't enough).

Liara, on the other hand, has a massive personality change. To me, that's just verging on impossible (it's never established that asari psychology is massively different from human psychology). Imagine the shyest, most self-contained person you know all of a sudden embarking on a hugely successful career as a stand-up comic.

I don't hate Liara, I just dislike how she was handled.

good points, agreed that they still make big jumps but they still stay within the plausible because of different ranks and order from a different species military, its also being hinted since me1 the ways turians, quarians and krogan society and promotion work (especially in tali case).

Same here I dislike the way Liara was handled, sicne it gives room to things that conflict with her supposed personality. For example sending dozens of mercs of her own to the slaughter in me2 if shep doesnt help her without much guilt yet in me3 crying for ten minutes *hyperbole every time someone dies, its clashing, feels odd and its better ignored otherwise she looks like hypocrite.

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 07:57 .

[Han Shot First]

Sparatus wrote...

Actually, no. Liara being the Shadowbroker is ridiculous because she was a shy, awkward archeologist that could barely talk without stuttering in Mass Effect. Then, cut to Mass Effect 2 where she is the complete opposite. That's dumb.

No more 'dumb' than Tali going from shy & awkward Queen of the Squad Wipes in ME2 to Admiral in ME3, or Wrex going from mercenary to king of Tuchanka, or Garrus going from ex cop to heir to the throne of Palaven.

[tractrpl]

Sparatus wrote...

Actually, no. Liara being the Shadowbroker is ridiculous because she was a shy, awkward archeologist that could barely talk without stuttering in Mass Effect. Then, cut to Mass Effect 2 where she is the complete opposite. That's dumb.

Not really, no. I stutter sometimes and I'm a science freak and tech geek. Yet I also do battlefield Intelligence coordinating what are known as ISR assets (spy drones and such). While I don't personally pull the trigger (or order a strike in most cases) it's my job to find the bad guys, and when I do, they usually end up dead. Thus, I've personally contributed to the deaths of over 200 Taliban. That's pretty badass for a stuttering tech geek.

[Jog0907]

Han Shot First wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Actually, no. Liara being the Shadowbroker is ridiculous because she was a shy, awkward archeologist that could barely talk without stuttering in Mass Effect. Then, cut to Mass Effect 2 where she is the complete opposite. That's dumb.

No more 'dumb' than Tali going from shy & awkward Queen of the Squad Wipes in ME2 to Admiral in ME3, or Wrex going from mercenary to king of Tuchanka, or Garrus going from ex cop to heir to the throne of Palaven.

wrong shes still shy, her rank of admiral is of a glorified advisor due to her age not of someone with actual command of forces, and Wrex only changes in mind after seeing the horror that not unified krogan caused in virmire, and with Garrus its only bad if you insist on ignoring the ways that turian society is different from human

[tractrpl]

Jog0907 wrote...

and with Garrus its only bad if you insist on ignoring the ways that turian society is different from human

or ignoring it's similarities.

Besides, what does shy have to do with anything. One of the most badass people I've ever seen is this shy, geeky asian kid who kiled something like 40 Taliban by himself at a checkpoint. He won Victoria Cross.  I've met many geeky, shy marines, that doesn't stop them from getting the job done.

Modifié par tractrpl, 22 avril 2012 - 08:09 .

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

and with Garrus its only bad if you insist on ignoring the ways that turian society is different from human

or ignoring it's similarities.

Besides, what does shy have to do with anything. One of the most badass people I've ever seen is this shy, geeky asian kid who kiled something like 40 Taliban by himself at a checkpoint. He won Victoria Cross.  I've met many geeky, shy marines, that doesn't stop them from getting the job done.

I only mentioned shy because someone said tali was too shy to be admiral, which is wrong shes only shy towards a shep that attempts to romance her, to everyone else shes quite assertive, elevator comvos in me1 and garrus citadel convo in me2 as proof.

and your point in regards to Turians make no sense, similarities are worthless if the differences lead to a considerable change in ranks which it does in me3, hell your mission in palavens moon is to see how quickly a turian can go up in ranks if the conditions are right, victus from just another general from many already in there to "emperor" of all turians, because of a sucession line.
So comments in regards to garrus position are at fault since theres already other examples of that in-game when it comes to the Turian hierarchy, garrus position is only in disbelief if you agree to say that the all the turian hierarchy ranks are not believable which you cant since they are an example of alien systems of societal order, and thus not bound to the same logic that dictates human society.

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[Han Shot First]

Jog0907 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

and with Garrus its only bad if you insist on ignoring the ways that turian society is different from human

or ignoring it's similarities.

Besides, what does shy have to do with anything. One of the most badass people I've ever seen is this shy, geeky asian kid who kiled something like 40 Taliban by himself at a checkpoint. He won Victoria Cross.  I've met many geeky, shy marines, that doesn't stop them from getting the job done.

I only mentioned shy because someone said tali was too shy to be admiral, which is wrong shes only shy towards a shep that attempts to romance her, to everyone else shes quite assertive, elevator comvos in me1 and garrus citadel convo in me2 as proof.

and your point in regards to Turians make no sense, similarities are worthless if the differences lead to a considerable change in ranks which it does in me3, hell your mission in palavens moon is to see how quickly a turian can go up in ranks if the conditions are right, victus from just another general from many already in there to "emperor" of all turians, because of a sucession line.

General to Primarch isn't a big leap, particularly in a culture that is dominated by public service and the military. In fact is probably the next logical step. Ex cop to Primarch is a big leap.

As far as Tali goes, even if she does possess the right personality traits to be an Admiral she still goes from civilian to the most senior rank in the Quarian military. Even if her duties and role was mostly honorary, it still is a meteoric leap. And no more realistic than Liara going from archaeologist to information broker.

[Alistair Theirin]

Liara is very useful in ME1 (anybody with biotics is), but I actually can't stand using Liara in ME3 on any difficulty above normal. That woman has such low health, she dies from a paper cut.

Combat aside, I like Liara as a character but I'm not a big fan of how important she is compared to the other squad members. I wish they had kept that Virmire 2.0 situation in the game (not because I hate her, but to give her a chance to die as well).

The only thing that actually made me angry however, was when her face popped up in my flashbacks at the end instead of my LI. Not okay.