300 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

tractrpl wrote...

Besides, what does shy have to do with anything. One of the most badass people I've ever seen is this shy, geeky asian kid who kiled something like 40 Taliban by himself at a checkpoint. He won Victoria Cross.  I've met many geeky, shy marines, that doesn't stop them from getting the job done.

But would he suddenly become a great stand-up comic, in front of hundreds or thousands of people? Or be any good at having to plan and organise, deal constantly with different people with different ideas and try to get them working together?

[Jog0907]

Han Shot First wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

and with Garrus its only bad if you insist on ignoring the ways that turian society is different from human

or ignoring it's similarities.

Besides, what does shy have to do with anything. One of the most badass people I've ever seen is this shy, geeky asian kid who kiled something like 40 Taliban by himself at a checkpoint. He won Victoria Cross.  I've met many geeky, shy marines, that doesn't stop them from getting the job done.

I only mentioned shy because someone said tali was too shy to be admiral, which is wrong shes only shy towards a shep that attempts to romance her, to everyone else shes quite assertive, elevator comvos in me1 and garrus citadel convo in me2 as proof.

and your point in regards to Turians make no sense, similarities are worthless if the differences lead to a considerable change in ranks which it does in me3, hell your mission in palavens moon is to see how quickly a turian can go up in ranks if the conditions are right, victus from just another general from many already in there to "emperor" of all turians, because of a sucession line.

General to Primarch isn't a big leap, particularly in a culture that is dominated by public service and the military. In fact is probably the next logical step. Ex cop to Primarch is a big leap.

As far as Tali goes, even if she does possess the right personality traits to be an Admiral she still goes from civilian to the most senior rank in the Quarian military. Even if her duties and role was mostly honorary, it still is a meteoric leap. And no more realistic than Liara going from archaeologist to information broker.

yes but Victus is one of many more generals in the moon so his jump is still unexepected, even he is surprised when its told so he knows that is not that common.

Tali is not a civilian, she's military (on the commanding level in me2) and from a species in which your clan name has effects on how people see you, its plausible because it works within a species witha different system of order that values family name, and she nevers becomes an admiral if the Zorah name is left as unhonorable in me2, thus it shows how the quarian system can determine things.

The problem its not Liara from archeo to info broker, its from good info broker to the ultimate information broker in some months regardless of the resources at hand.

[Alistair Theirin]

Han Shot First wrote...

General to Primarch isn't a big leap, particularly in a culture that is dominated by public service and the military. In fact is probably the next logical step. Ex cop to Primarch is a big leap.

As far as Tali goes, even if she does possess the right personality traits to be an Admiral she still goes from civilian to the most senior rank in the Quarian military. Even if her duties and role was mostly honorary, it still is a meteoric leap. And no more realistic than Liara going from archaeologist to information broker.

I disagree. While it may have been a large leap for Tali to become an admiral, the explanation was fairly sound and already based in her pre-established backstory. She grew up understanding the work of an admiral fairly well, because of her father. She also happens to be the foremost expert on Geth because of his work, and in a time of war against them, it is understandable that they would want her in a leadership position (even if it is just a formality).

Liara, on the other hand, does not have any previous connection to the Shadow Broker. They wrote her in as becoming an information broker in between ME1 and 2, simply because there wasn't much left for her to do as a prothean expert.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Liara being an information broker. I just think it is definitely one of the biggest leaps in character development of any squad member in the series.

[Foxhound2121]

o Ventus wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

In both ME1 and ME2 Liara is damn near the most useful squadmate unless you yourself are already an adept. In ME1, you just have her use singularity, all bad guys go up in the air, and you just turkey shoot. Didn't get to kill them all, you just use lift, turkey shoot. One of those shotgun wielders or krogen with regen that needs 1000 bullets to kill? Just use warp. I mean having Liara is almost like cheating, that's how much easier she makes the game merely by having her in her squad. The same goes in ME3, though I used her stasis more instead of singularity , it helped me with using headshots with my sniper rifle. 

So, how can you NOT like her? She's so damn useful, like an instant easy switch. Is that why you hate her, because she's the most useful squadmate in the game? Or do you play as an adept already and therefore don't need her? Maybe you don't like her voice actress. What is it?

She's useful enough in combat. She complements my ME3 Sentinel very well, what with Stasis and Singularity setting up Warp detonations. 

My distaste for Liara comes from her canon mega-relevance, and Shepard's strange infatuation with her, even if she isn't romanced. For example, look at the Genesis comic. Before you're given the choice of a romance pick, Shepard delivers this line: "Liara, like most asari, was as beautiful as she was intelligent."

Maybe it's just me, but that came off as a little creepy, since Shepard knew nothing about Liara at that point in time. Plus there are the numerous Citadel conversations with Liara in ME3 that are borderline flirting, even if you turn her advances down and pursue someone else.

Otherwise, she has, over the course of ME2 and 3, been inflated to the 2nd most important character in the franchise, behind Shepard. She recovered his corpse (Which itself is odd. Why not Garrus or Tali, or Ashley?), she's the Shadow Broker, and she's the one who discovered the Crucible plans. Liara is literally the entire reason the galaxy still has life in it. No single character needs that much appraisal.

This is silly, and I think a lot of you are being naive or rediculous to request or assume that every Love Interest in a game is going to be on the same level of quality or content as others.

Nobody wants to play a game where everything is the same, or where every LI is just a copy and paste from another. They all have different motivations and character roles and just because they fit into those roles doesn't mean other people in the game deserve blame for it. That is just rediculous.

If you don't like how fullfilling your LI was, it's not the fault of another LI. Just like it's not Miranda's fault that Liara doesn't want to or can't be a part of your squad in ME2. The very conception of the character Miranda's is not the reason why Liara doesn't partake in ME2 either. Saying any of these things would be rediculous and selfish form of envy.

The argument should be I wish X romance had more of X, not I wish X romance had less of X. That's just a form of extreme envy. I just can't take any of that seriously.

[Han Shot First]

Jog0907 wrote...

yes but Victus is one of many more generals in the moon so his jump is still unexepected, even he is surprised when its told so he knows that is not that common.

Victus is a general, not an ex cop. Garrus being in the line of succession for Primarch makes a lot less sense than Victus.

Tali is not a civilian, she's military (on the commanding level in me2) and from a species in which your clan name has effects on how people see you, its plausible because it works within a species witha different system of order that values family name, and she nevers becomes an admiral if the Zorah name is left as unhonorable in me2, thus it shows how the quarian system can determine things.

Tali explains in ME1 that Quarian society is a meritocracy. People are raised up based on their abilities rather than their blood lines. More may be expected of her by virture of her being the daughter of someone on the Admiralty board, but rank, position and duties are not hereditary.

Also even if Tali had a military rank in ME2 that is never mentioned, she still goes from cog in the wheel to Admiral in the blink of an eye. If compared to real world militaries, this is completely implausible. And there is no reason to think that even an alien species would do things differently than we do it here on Earth. Promoting people who who lack experience to possess the necessary skillset for their responsibilities, is a recipe for failure in any organization.  A species that had mastered space travel and was capable of creating a true A.I, would also have been capable of recognizing that merit based promotions are more likely to breed success than promoting based on family connections. Also, as noted, Tali states that Quarian society is a meritocracy.

Liara's leap from archaeologist to shadowbroker is no more far fetched than Tali's leap to Admiral or Garrus' leap to heir to the throne, and they all require the same suspension of disbelief. People are entitled to not like certain characters of course, but the argument that one character is more believable than another, simply doesn't hold water. The people making those arguments are effectively putting blinders on for the characters they also happen to like better.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 22 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Lol Kaidan puts her to shame, in terms of usefulness anyway.

Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 22 avril 2012 - 08:55 .

[tractrpl]

Alistair Theirin wrote...

Liara is very useful in ME1 (anybody with biotics is), but I actually can't stand using Liara in ME3 on any difficulty above normal. That woman has such low health, she dies from a paper cut.

Combat aside, I like Liara as a character but I'm not a big fan of how important she is compared to the other squad members. I wish they had kept that Virmire 2.0 situation in the game (not because I hate her, but to give her a chance to die as well).

The only thing that actually made me angry however, was when her face popped up in my flashbacks at the end instead of my LI. Not okay.

I had a different experience, but I played soldier, and I never button mashed and I ALWAYS stayed as far back from the enemy as possible. I never liked the Vangard rush thing. I favored my sniper rifle. In this role, I would always put Liara (all of my squadmates, to be honest) somewhere away from the action. I used her for crowd control (just like in ME1) and I used her stasis alot to help with my sniping.

[tractrpl]

Han Shot First wrote...

Garrus & Tali's leaps are no more far fetched than Liara's, and they all require the same suspension of disbelief. People are entitled to not like certain characters of course, but the argument that one character is more believable than another, simply doesn't hold water. The people making those arguments are effectively putting blinders on for the characters they also happen to like better.

Yep. We military folks have to be patient when explaining such simple concepts to civilians.  


(I'm assuming you're a former/current marine, I think you mentioned something similar earlier.)

[Sgt.Catman]

Wow. This is getting good. I better go get more popcorn.

[tractrpl]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Lol Kaidan puts her to shame, in terms of usefulness anyway.

Kaiden is pretty useful, once you have him properly leveled. However, he doesn't have singularity, so.

[Jog0907]

Han Shot First wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

yes but Victus is one of many more generals in the moon so his jump is still unexepected, even he is surprised when its told so he knows that is not that common.

Victus is a general, not an ex cop. Garrus being in the line of succession for Primarch makes a lot less sense than Victus.

Tali is not a civilian, she's military (on the commanding level in me2) and from a species in which your clan name has effects on how people see you, its plausible because it works within a species witha different system of order that values family name, and she nevers becomes an admiral if the Zorah name is left as unhonorable in me2, thus it shows how the quarian system can determine things.

Tali explains in ME1 that Quarian society is a meritocracy. People are raised up based on their abilities rather than their blood lines. More may be expected of her by virture of her being the daughter of someone on the Admiralty board, but rank, position and duties are not hereditary.

Also even if Tali had a military rank in ME2 that is never mentioned, she still goes from cog in the wheel to Admiral in the blink of an eye. If compared to real world militaries, this is completely implausible. And there is no reason to think that even an alien species would do things differently than we do it here on Earth. Promoting people who who lack experience to possess the necessary skillset for their responsibilities, is a recipe for failure in any organization.  A species that had mastered space travel and was capable of creating a true A.I, would also have been capable of recognizing that merit based promotions are more likely to breed success than promoting based on family connections. Also, as noted, Tali states that Quarian society is a meritocracy.

Garrus & Tali's leaps are no more far fetched than Liara's, and they all require the same suspension of disbelief. People are entitled to not like certain characters of course, but the argument that one character is more believable than another, simply doesn't hold water. The people making those arguments are effectively putting blinders on for the characters they also happen to like better.

In regards to garrus he ahd already been part of the military at most is a reinstatement as leader of a task force than answers to the primarch himself, not the same as just an ex cop.

In regards to tali Im amuseed by your incapacity to notice wheter a person leading military operations is part of a military or not. sencond yes quarians are based on merit but its also said that clan name is important (its plays a noticeable role in inter fleet order), shes a geth and reaper expert which giver her merit and if let honorable her clan name provides the other part of the equation, if the latter is missing she remains a counselor product fo her merit, the latter is upped if she has honorable clan name as well.
Wether you think its correct for a space age species to hold family name as important or not is meaningless, what matters is that thats how the game shows their society to be like, merit + family, and thus her rank must only answer to that internal logic of her species which the game does well.

Both quarians and turians have meritocratic aspects, and both Garrus and Tali show enought merit for their leaders to show interest on them, Liara case is not  a matter of species and individual like them but only of indiviudal, and thus you cant use them as something to say that Liara situation is more believable.

You cant say that T/G cases lend credibility to Liara case, they dont, because for them its a matter on how their societies decides to work, for Liara is a case of purely personal capabilities which must be upped to a level that she becomes sueish and thus a implausible character that has been handled poorly.

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Garrus & Tali's leaps are no more far fetched than Liara's, and they all require the same suspension of disbelief. People are entitled to not like certain characters of course, but the argument that one character is more believable than another, simply doesn't hold water. The people making those arguments are effectively putting blinders on for the characters they also happen to like better.

Yep. We military folks have to be patient when explaining such simple concepts to civilians.  


(I'm assuming you're a former/current marine, I think you mentioned something similar earlier.)

you operate on the assumption that contemporary military ranks of humans have anything to do with the ranks and succesion an alien species uses, you come as nothing but arrogant and shows why your judgement here is at fault.

[tractrpl]

Jog0907 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Garrus & Tali's leaps are no more far fetched than Liara's, and they all require the same suspension of disbelief. People are entitled to not like certain characters of course, but the argument that one character is more believable than another, simply doesn't hold water. The people making those arguments are effectively putting blinders on for the characters they also happen to like better.

Yep. We military folks have to be patient when explaining such simple concepts to civilians.  


(I'm assuming you're a former/current marine, I think you mentioned something similar earlier.)

you operate on the assumption that contemporary military ranks of humans have anything to do with the ranks and succesion an alien species uses, you come as nothing but arrogant and shows why your judgement here is at fault.

And you're desparate wanting to use any justification that's suits your "But, I just DON'T LIKE HER" shows why your judgement is at fault. ANY organization that's going to be succesful is going to choose it's top members from those they believe to be most capable. While some people's talents might cause them to jump rank fast, they don't go from "unassociated" to "leader of all" very often. It does happen, even on Earth, but it's not likely.  Additionally, NOWHERE does it state that their ranks are chosen ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN HOW HUMANS DO, and the evidence shows THEY'RE MORE SIMILAR TO US THAN DISIMILAR.

Therefore, saying "Liara COULDN'T be SB" is as much BS as saying "But Garrus COULDN'T have been top general".  Both events are unlikely and take the same amount of suspension of disbelief. You CLEARLY only say that Liara's is far fetched for one reason and only one reason alone: YOU JUST DON'T LIKE HER.

Modifié par tractrpl, 22 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[Han Shot First]

Jog0907 wrote...

In regards to garrus he ahd already been part of the military at most is a reinstatement as leader of a task force than answers to the primarch himself, not the same as just an ex cop.

Garrus being ex military doesn't make him being in the line of succession for Primarch makes him any more realistic. That would be a bit like saying that someone who was a foreman on an assembly line at Ford, has the capabilties to be CEO for the company.

It is fairly far fetched and requires some suspension of disbelief.

Even being on a task force that advises the primarch shouldn't put him next in line, when there are still presumably numerous Generals, Admirals, and Political leaders still standing. Realistically, Garrus should be very, very, VERY far down the chain.

In regards to tali Im amuseed by your incapacity to notice wheter a person leading military operations is part of a military or not.

 
Tali leading squads doesn't necessarily mean she's military, as the line between civilians and military in Quarian society is a bit hazy. After all there is an Admiral of a civilian fleet, that uses said civilian fleet in what are clearly military operations.

Even so, if Tali did hold rank in the Quarian military she still went from someone who is leading squads, to someone who holds a rank that usually commands whole fleets. Quite a remarkable jump in authority and responsibility there, particularly when her previous commands ended in squad wipes.

Again, while these sort of jumps in rank and authority are standard fare in Sci Fi (unfortunately) they are extremely unrealistic. It also requires the same level of suspension of disbelief as Liara becoming Shadowbroker.

You're still applying a double standard, though part of it might be based on a lack of knowledge of how real world militaries work & promote.

sencond yes quarians are based on merit but its also said that clan name is important (its plays a noticeable role in inter fleet order), shes a geth and reaper expert which giver her merit and if let honorable her clan name provides the other part of the equation, if the latter is missing she remains a counselor product fo her merit, the latter is upped if she has honorable clan name as well.
Wether you think its correct for a space age species to hold family name as important or not is meaningless, what matters is that thats how the game shows their society to be like, merit + family, and thus her rank must only answer to that internal logic of her species which the game does well.

That is incorrect.

Shepard can ask Tali if she is like Quarian royalty in ME1 (one of Shep's derpier moments) and she'll reply that it isn't like that, and that the Quarians promote based entirely on merit. Her being an admiral's daughter only means that more is expected of her than the average Quarian. She is expected to live up to her father's name and contribute in similar ways to the fleet, but any position of authority she is given would only be through merit. In short, if a Quarian Admiral had a child that was only fit for scrubbing toilets, he or she would be a toiler scrubber.

Thus, Tali's rise to Admiral can in no way be explained by her bloodline.

Therefore, saying "Liara COULDN'T be SB" is as much BS as saying "But Garrus COULDN'T have been top general". Both events are unlikely and take the same amount of suspension of disbelief. You CLEARLY only say that Liara's is far fetched for one reason and only one reason alone: YOU JUST DON'T LIKE HER.

Agreed.

Not that anything is wrong in not liking Liara. In fact, you don't even really need a reason not to like her. Sometimes that just boils down to personal preferences.

It is only the argument that she was written in a way that is more unbelievable than the other squadmates, that I take issue with. That clearly isn't the case, and anyone making that argument is effectively putting blinders on with their favorite characters and applying a double standard.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 22 avril 2012 - 09:50 .

[MrnDpty161]

I would say, anything someone claims to know concerning how the real world works is thrown out the window with any type of fiction.

Seems to me, becoming the Shadow Broker is pretty much like being in the mob. You get to the top by the bodies that are found on your way up. Whose to say how many times the SB position was re-taken?

As for Ashley's promotions and such --- one must consider the emergency situation the universe was spiraling into before the general reaper attack. This includes Tali's situation with the impending Geth War, her father's death --- and the empty seat it brought.

They make sense....albiet a fictional stretch for Character/Fan service purposes and spot fixing plots.... but not entirely out of the field of possibility. There are some cases where seniority does not push a general rule and there is also such a thing in the military as field promotions, I've seen it happen. You can be a 2nd Lt and pushed to Captain if things were that bad --- this hasn't happened in a long time because we haven't really ( in the US case..) been in a war with another force capable of long term warfare with extreme casualties being inflicted. Its not out of the realm of reason to figure someone just bumped Ashley up a few notches ( or Kaiden) due to the fact they were serving with Shepard on a mission of Galactic importance - which the result was successful. She was also doing spec. ops missions under Anderson. So... I don't think the normal protcal applies to these two characters at all.

[tbb033]

tractrpl wrote...

So, how can you NOT like her? She's so damn useful, like an instant easy switch

Considering the game already has an instant easy switch (go into options and set it to casual) that's hardly a reason to like her.

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Garrus
& Tali's leaps are no more far fetched than Liara's, and they all
require the same suspension of disbelief. People are entitled to not
like certain characters of course, but the argument that one character
is more believable than another, simply doesn't hold water. The people
making those arguments are effectively putting blinders on for the
characters they also happen to like better.

Yep. We military folks have to be patient when explaining such simple concepts to civilians.  
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

(I'm assuming you're a former/current marine, I think you mentioned something similar earlier.)

you
operate on the assumption that contemporary military ranks of humans
have anything to do with the ranks and succesion an alien species uses,
you come as nothing but arrogant and shows why your judgement here is at
fault.

And you're desparate wanting to use
any justification that's suits your "But, I just DON'T LIKE HER" shows
why your judgement is at fault. ANY organization that's going to be
succesful is going to choose it's top members from those they believe to
be most capable. While some people's talents might cause them to jump
rank fast, they don't go from "unassociated" to "leader of all" very
often. It does happen, even on Earth, but it's not likely.
 Additionally, NOWHERE does it state that their ranks are chosen ANY
DIFFERENTLY THAN HOW HUMANS DO, and the evidence shows THEY'RE MORE
SIMILAR TO US THAN DISIMILAR.

Therefore, saying "Liara COULDN'T
be SB" is as much BS as saying "But Garrus COULDN'T have been top
general".  Both events are unlikely and take the same amount of
suspension of disbelief. You CLEARLY only say that Liara's is far
fetched for one reason and only one reason alone: YOU JUST DON'T LIKE
HER.

Again your using your judgement for what is an alien species way of doing thing, and its assumed and said all the time and its stated in the codex how turians and quarians have different political and military systems than humans, with similarities yes but with big enough differences as well that change the way they work.
What is unreasonable is that you assume that species that have been on space before humans would use the same system humans do, or that somehow because its what humans use then its the only way it can be.

You're saying I don't like Liara which is not really true, I like Liara, intelligent scientist with good heart is nice, what I don't like is her becoming the SB even when she is clearly lacking the necessary resources to actually tackle on the SB ship.
Its good when she has the Normandy (the most advanced stealth ship) on her side its implausible when she has just mercs.

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 09:55 .

[Han Shot First]

Seems to me, becoming the Shadow Broker is pretty much like being in the mob. You get to the top by the bodies that are found on your way up. Whose to say how many times the SB position was re-taken?

That is fairly good point about the Shadowbroker.

We know of only two characters who have held the position and both achieved it through violence and murder.

Again your using your judgement for what is an alien species way of doing thing, and its assumed and said all the time and its stated in the codex how turians and quarians have different political and military systems than humans, with similarities yes but with big enough differences as well that change the way they work.
What is unreasonable is that you assume that species that have been on space before humans would use the same system humans do, or that somehow because its what humans use then its the only way it can be.

Sorry, but any civilization that did not promote based on merit would never rise to galactic supremacy. Such a civilization would be doomed to failure long before it developed the ability to explore the cosmos. There are some human nations that operate on this model, with dictators appointing people to positions of power based more on their loyalty or family connections to the regime. Ever notice that these nations are also all Third World countries that are mired in poverty and ineffeciency, and whose militaries are capable of little more than keeping the civilian populace oppressed? Force on force against more developed nations with militaries that promote based on merit, they get absolutely clobbered.

Thus, the Quarias and Turians promoting based on anything but merit is unrealistic.

That, and it actually conflicts with established lore. With the Quarians you are outright told that they promote based on merit. With the Turians it is heavily suggested.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 22 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[MrnDpty161]

Sparatus wrote...

I don't want to play a game where everyone is the same and has the same role in the story. That is silly.

I just want characters progressing and developing in a logical fashion.

True but trying to mash this much lore and story in  3 games, your just going to have to live with the fact of some mass excelleration in certain areas...

....lest it was a 4 game series which I belive it should have been.

[MrnDpty161]

Sparatus wrote...

And why do I have to take the Shadowbroker around the galaxy with me? Wouldn't she, I dunno, be much more useful working on the Crucible instead of putting herself in danger with Shepard?

I can tell Kaidan/Ashley to go work with Hackett but not Liara? Bullcrap.

Well yeah --- if the written cannon had the original intent on Liara being a prime character to the story.  I would disagree, because of her work with the Protheons, an asset that Shepard helped aquire ( if you played LOTSB), she's also capable of fighting within the squad.  

Makes more sense for a SB to be on the only alliance ship that can still manuever to other systems even if their Reaper infested for the job of an SB is really to continue to provide information and communications to their system of agents.  Can't do that if your stuck hiding --- or dead from a Reaper attack.  In a sense,  the Normandy turned into a mobile Pentagon when earth got hit, even Anderson was going to use the Normandy as a mobile CIC.

[Jog0907]

Garrus is not said to be next in line just high enough that he may be a potential primarch, it doesnt requires suspension of disbelief because its part of how turian society works not dependent exclusively on himself.

Also tali doesn't commands any fleet exactly because the others know she doesn't haves the experience to do so, her admiral as it has been said again and again is so her advice carries more strength for which rank is necessary in a society that basically lives in martial law.

Liara believability is broken (only in a non shep in LotSB) because
it falls entirely to the capacity of the character itself, which must be
way too exagerated unlike Tali and Garrus rank whose believability is on
both their own skills and how their family connections and experiences
tie with the system of order their own species militaries and government follow.


reposted> You're saying I don't like Liara which is not really true, I like Liara,
intelligent scientist with good heart is nice, what I don't like is her
becoming the SB even when she is clearly lacking the necessary
resources to actually tackle on the SB ship.

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 10:05 .

[tractrpl]

Jog0907 wrote...

Again your using your judgement for what is an alien species way of doing thing, and its assumed and said all the time and its stated in the codex how turians and quarians have different political and military systems than humans, with similarities yes but with big enough differences as well that change the way they work.
What is unreasonable is that you assume that species that have been on space before humans would use the same system humans do, or that somehow because its what humans use then its the only way it can be.

You're saying I don't like Liara which is not really true, I like Liara, intelligent scientist with good heart is nice, what I don't like is her becoming the SB even when she is clearly lacking the necessary resources to actually tackle on the SB ship.
Its good when she has the Normandy (the most advanced stealth ship) on her side its implausible when she has just mercs.

Look, I agree only somewhat. I believe she should have become SB no matter what. Otherwise the possible plotlines get too hairy (not to mention it would have been time consuming to right down so many different dialogue options, etc.). I just think BW should have gone on with their original plan and makd LotSB a canon event, canon in that Shep joins in helping Liara. 

That being said, let me go back to your other points. Basically, your only justification for how Garrus or Tali could be promoted is "because space magic" (or "because they're weird aliens", which to me is the same as space magic). Well, then let us military people tell you why Ashley's promotion to LCDR is so weird. 

First, Ash is human military, it's implied, and, in fact, emphasized that the culture, structure, and orginization of the Alliance military is very similar to the current US military.  So now, you can't say "They're weird aliens" or "They're different, cause it's like, the FUTURE". It doesn't work. So how does Ashley gain a commision (go from enlisted to officer), gunnery chief or operations chief doesn't matter, by the way, then go from lowest ranking officer, rank 1, to rank 4 (LCDR) in less than a year? Now that's SOME promotion. I'd say it's unprecedented. It's very unusual and us military guys have to take a huge suspension of disbelief when we see that, but we accept it. Oh, and she suddenly one rank above Joker, one rank above what Kaiden was, and now only one rank below Shep, and Shep didn't get promoted? Come on.

Now, for Liara, as for become SB, we only need to know she's badass. That's enough for us. Bioware in this case should have made Sheps involvement with LotSB canon, even for those that didn't play it. That makes it more believeable than saying she made it on her own (which angers me cause that invalidate's shepards involvement), and there's too much they'd have to change as far as dialogue options and plotline, even how the ship's set up to have her as SB in one playthrough and not SB in another.

Modifié par tractrpl, 22 avril 2012 - 10:07 .

[RogueMumei]

I don't dislike Liara, but I just wanted to remind everyone that people have their own opinions and like different kinds of characters. One person may like bologna, another may hate the taste but like pepperoni. So some people may find Liara amazing for her wit, skill, and close bond to Shepard, and others may find her annoying because they don't like her personality, think she's an elitist, dislike how she forces positive stereotypes, and are forced to have her around as a friend even when they've tried to push her away. Like how no matter how mean you are to Ashley/Kaidan/Garrus/etc. in previous games, you're still forced to be friends with them or care about whoever died on Virmire even if you were horrible to them. That goes quadruple for the kid in the vent.

I don't think that we should sit around trying to convince each other that liking/disliking a character is wrong or stupid because everyone has their own preferences and right to their own opinions, that's all. /shrug