300 réponses à ce sujet

[SNascimento]

Nah, in ME3 she is not the best squadmate... the new balance of the game made most squadmates useful, the differences are much smaller than they were in ME2... in which Liara wasn't even a squadmate, just for a mission.
.
In ME1, I don't know...

[tractrpl]

RogueMumei wrote...

I don't dislike Liara, but I just wanted to remind everyone that people have their own opinions and like different kinds of characters. One person may like bologna, another may hate the taste but like pepperoni. So some people may find Liara amazing for her wit, skill, and close bond to Shepard, and others may find her annoying because they don't like her personality, think she's an elitist, dislike how she forces positive stereotypes, and are forced to have her around as a friend even when they've tried to push her away. Like how no matter how mean you are to Ashley/Kaidan/Garrus/etc. in previous games, you're still forced to be friends with them or care about whoever died on Virmire even if you were horrible to them. That goes quadruple for the kid in the vent.

I don't think that we should sit around trying to convince each other that liking/disliking a character is wrong or stupid because everyone has their own preferences and right to their own opinions, that's all. /shrug

I agree, but I disagree with their reasons for saying "I can't believe Liara is SB" while saying that Garrus suddenly being top dog or Ashley suddenly only one rank below me and one rank above Joker when we didn't get promoted is just insane.

[SNascimento]

doublepost. 

Modifié par SNascimento, 22 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[Nefla]

I'm usually an adept, plus I don't HATE Liara, I just think she's a boring character.

[Jog0907]

tractrpl wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

Again your using your judgement for what is an alien species way of doing thing, and its assumed and said all the time and its stated in the codex how turians and quarians have different political and military systems than humans, with similarities yes but with big enough differences as well that change the way they work.
What is unreasonable is that you assume that species that have been on space before humans would use the same system humans do, or that somehow because its what humans use then its the only way it can be.

You're saying I don't like Liara which is not really true, I like Liara, intelligent scientist with good heart is nice, what I don't like is her becoming the SB even when she is clearly lacking the necessary resources to actually tackle on the SB ship.
Its good when she has the Normandy (the most advanced stealth ship) on her side its implausible when she has just mercs.

Look, I agree only somewhat. I believe she should have become SB no matter what. Otherwise the possible plotlines get too hairy (not to mention it would have been time consuming to right down so many different dialogue options, etc.). I just think BW should have gone on with their original plan and makd LotSB a canon event, canon in that Shep joins in helping Liara. 

That being said, let me go back to your other points. Basically, your only justification for how Garrus or Tali could be promoted is "because space magic" (or "because they're weird aliens", which to me is the same as space magic). Well, then let us military people tell you why Ashley's promotion to LCDR is so weird. 

First, Ash is human military, it's implied, and, in fact, emphasized that the culture, structure, and orginization of the Alliance military is very similar to the current US military.  So now, you can't say "They're weird aliens" or "They're different, cause it's like, the FUTURE". It doesn't work. So how does Ashley gain a commision (go from enlisted to officer), gunnery chief or operations chief doesn't matter, by the way, then go from lowest ranking officer, rank 1, to rank 4 (LCDR) in less than a year? Now that's SOME promotion. I'd say it's unprecedented. It's very unusual and us military guys have to take a huge suspension of disbelief when we see that, but we accept it. 

Now, for Liara, as for become SB, we only need to know she's badass. That's enough for us. Bioware in this case should have made Sheps involvement with LotSB canon, even for those that didn't play it. That makes it more believeable than saying she made it on her own (which angers me cause that invalidate's shepards involvement), and there's too much they'd have to change as far as dialogue options and plotline, even how the ship's set up to have her as SB in one playthrough and not SB in another.

Its not space magic its a system of promotion that is explained in-game, weird aliens fits as justification becasue  they are aliens, another species, people from another planet, a different society with different values than a human one.
An alien species that developed in another world having different values than a human one, is not space magic is reasonable world building.

Second, Ashley I wont mention since her case can actually be more closley studied with human values, and what you reason for others can indeed be used for her rank jump unlike those of Garrus and Tali, sicne she is human and belongs to a human military than has many similarityes to the contemporary ones.

As for Liara I agree, they should have made Shep involvement in LotSB canon, but they didnt and it opens a hole that cant be fixed with "I just hired a bunch of mercs", which is my problem, had they eliminated such a thing by doing what you proposed its pretty much certain that my disbelief in Liara wouldnt exist.

edit> I'll leave now and Ill say that despite the discussion getting weird/nasty at times that I still enjoyed the debate

Modifié par Jog0907, 22 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[Neizd]

I don't hate Liara, she is a nice friend for my Shep. The only thing that annoys me is that she is portrayed as too important, and some characters are just shoved aside. I don't mind characters being different, having important role etc, but if the writers create characters they shoul know that every character will have a big fanbase, and according to this fanbase they should give the content with characters equally.

I hate Jackob but I feel pity for his fans seeing what they got in ME3.

[Han Shot First]

tractrpl wrote...

RogueMumei wrote...

I don't dislike Liara, but I just wanted to remind everyone that people have their own opinions and like different kinds of characters. One person may like bologna, another may hate the taste but like pepperoni. So some people may find Liara amazing for her wit, skill, and close bond to Shepard, and others may find her annoying because they don't like her personality, think she's an elitist, dislike how she forces positive stereotypes, and are forced to have her around as a friend even when they've tried to push her away. Like how no matter how mean you are to Ashley/Kaidan/Garrus/etc. in previous games, you're still forced to be friends with them or care about whoever died on Virmire even if you were horrible to them. That goes quadruple for the kid in the vent.

I don't think that we should sit around trying to convince each other that liking/disliking a character is wrong or stupid because everyone has their own preferences and right to their own opinions, that's all. /shrug

I agree, but I disagree with their reasons for saying "I can't believe Liara is SB" while saying that Garrus suddenly being top dog or Ashley suddenly only one rank below me and one rank above Joker when we didn't get promoted is just insane.

Pretty much.

The arcs for Garrus, Liara and Tali all require the same suspension of disbelief. Neither of them is any more unrealistic than the other, and arguing otherwise is simply no more than putting blinders on when it comes to your favorite character.

Likewise arguing that Tali or Garrus' arc is more believable 'because they're aliens' makes little sense, considering we are flat out told the Quarians promote based on merit, and it is heavily suggested with the Turians. Likewise if someone were going to go with that rather lame argument, it would also apply to Liara, who also happens to be an alien: "She became SB because she's like this weird alien, with a different culture and stuff. Oh, and space magic!"

Instead I say we throw the 'they're aliens' argument out, and just accept that all three require some suspension of disbelief.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 22 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[Ninja Mage]

I like Liara's character. She's like a good version of Matriarch Benezia

[Reorte]

Han Shot First wrote...

Instead I say we throw the 'they're aliens' argument out, and just accept that all three require some suspension of disbelief.

Sure, all three do. I just find screwing around with the system slightly less unbelievable than a complete change of character.

[Vormaerin]

Kaelef wrote...

You have no more reason to justify Tali or Garrus' moves than you do Liara's.  It's all just head-canon.

Admiral in Quarian society is a political office, not a military rank.   Tali is a political appointment, just there to show the rank and file that the politicians are taking the geth and reapers seriously.   It is in no way like being made an Admiral in a modern Navy.

Though I would like to point out that it was only four or five hundred years ago that humans appointed military leaders purely on political terms, sometimes with good results and sometimes with disastrous ones.

Garrus is also a political appointee.  He's not a general.  He's like a police commissioner, someone appointed to run a police department.  Who may or may not have worked his way up the ranks.

Liara defeating the Shadowbroker on her own is rather improbable.  It was rather a stretch to have her do so with Cerberus and Shepard helping her.   I don't think her personality really changed that much.  She was pretty obviously not a very good shadowbroker.   She has surprisingly little to contribute for information in either ME2 or ME3.   Traynor is at least five times more useful to the war intelligence department as Liara proves to be.  TIM also squashed her like a bug, pretty much.


Back to the OP:   Liara is not especially powerful.   Biotics in general are insanely effective in ME1, but much less useful in ME2.   So if you think that Liara's biotics stand up to Jack's or Samara's, its entirely due to that change in game mechanics.  Its certainly not supported by lore.   In ME3, she is only noteworthy because she is the only biotic adept you can get.   Jack and Samara still smoke her in their cameos.

The fact is that it makes little sense to have Liara on the ship.  There is nothing she contributes by being on the Normandy (other than companionship) that she couldn't do far more effectively from Hackett's HQ.   She's a prothean expert who should be working on the Crucible and operating the surviving bits of her intel network from a stable command center.

Liara strikes me as a little girl in way over her head and trying to pretend she's got everything under control while it slowly melts around her.

[Vapaa]

Vormaerin wrote...

The fact is that it makes little sense to have Liara on the ship.  There is nothing she contributes by being on the Normandy (other than companionship) that she couldn't do far more effectively from Hackett's HQ.   She's a prothean expert who should be working on the Crucible and operating the surviving bits of her intel network from a stable command center.

She IS working on the Crucible, when she's in the Normandy, and the Normandy is likely the safest place in the universe, kind of important for an information broker

[Vormaerin]

Regarding Ashley and Kaiden's promotions, there's no point in discussing that until you can find some evidence that any aspect of the Alliance military rank structure makes sense.

None of the main characters are naval line officers, as far as we can tell. Despite being command officers on warships. Shepard is a special forces officer. Ashley is an infantry officer. Kaiden is a marine. James Vega is also a marine. That alone tells you that the entire military structure of the Alliance does not correspond to the modern western navies.

[tractrpl]

Jog0907 wrote...

Its not space magic its a system of promotion that is explained in-game, weird aliens fits as justification becasue  they are aliens, another species, people from another planet, a different society with different values than a human one.
An alien species that developed in another world having different values than a human one, is not space magic is reasonable world building.

The problem is that they're NOT weird aliens. When Tali talks to me about life on the flotilla, I can sympathize with her struggles. When Garrus talks to me about his frustrations with C-Sec, I say "I feel you, bro". I can sympathize with Wrex's plight and understand what his motivations are. I can understand Legion most because his concern is with self preservation and logic, emotion doesn't factor with him, mostly.  We can understand them because they're anthropromorphed, in character as well as in looks. The point is that I can understand them, but not because Bioware made them to think like humans, Bioware made them to behave logically. This is what we're trying to say here, at no time does Bioware make them out to be "weird" aliens. Slightly different cultures, perhaps, but predictable in that they make logical decisions based on evidence. Any culture that does not make decisions based on evidence is unlikely to become a spacefaring race on their own, but even the Krogan are understandable. They're not weird aliens, so promoting Tali and Garrus like that doesn't make sense, as does Ashley.

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...


Admiral in Quarian society is a political office, not a military rank.   

No, wrong, play ME1 again.

[Vormaerin]

Vapaä wrote...

She IS working on the Crucible, when she's in the Normandy, and the Normandy is likely the safest place in the universe, kind of important for an information broker

BS.   At most, she's kind of trying to keep up on the work being transmitted to her.   And the Normandy is absolutely not a safe place to be, nor is it a place where it is easy to keep in contact with her network.   Despite the space magic installation of tons of equipment on the Normandy the instant she steps aboard.   Though maybe storage for all that equipment explains the new boobs.  

Actually being able to work on the crucible and directly talk with the other experts would be way more valuable than occassionally getting to exchange some emails.    And if you think a ship flying through reaper controlled territory and engaging in commando insertions is safer than whatever mysterious place they built the Crucible...   Well, I'm not sure what to say about that.

[Legion64]

I don't care what others think. I romanced her and she got more screen time and was more useful than the other worthless romances! IN YOUR FACE HATERS! AHAHAHAHA!

[Soccer FeverMan]

I like Liara but not as much as i use to, she's still my Shep's LI but his and my liking for her have kinda cooled.

Though to stick with the topic at hand
-Liara, Garrus, Tali, and Kaidhley's progress are all really "iffy" and not super logical but i've come to expect that from bioware.

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...


Admiral in Quarian society is a political office, not a military rank.   

No, wrong, play ME1 again.

The quarian system is a hodge podge mixture of democracy and martial law that is only briefly explained.  We know that the ship councils can remove captains and that the ship councils elect the Conclave.  And that the Admiralty Board can override the rest of the Conclave.

But there is no information at all about how one qualifies to be on the Admiralty board.    The Heavy Fleet is military, the Patrol Fleet is police, the Civilian Fleet is civilian.   But Xen and Tali's dad are scientists.     The whole system is not analogous to anything on Earth.   Its quite clear that *Tali* at least was appointed directly to fill her father's slot on the Admiralty Board, which is clearly a political move and her authority suffers for it.

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

Back to the OP:   Liara is not especially powerful.   Biotics in general are insanely effective in ME1, but much less useful in ME2.   So if you think that Liara's biotics stand up to Jack's or Samara's, its entirely due to that change in game mechanics.  Its certainly not supported by lore.   In ME3, she is only noteworthy because she is the only biotic adept you can get.   Jack and Samara still smoke her in their cameos.

Cameos be damned, I felt Jack was one of the least useful biotics in ME2. Perhaps that's one reason I was dissapointed by her. According to 'lore' which consists of cutscenes, Jack is powerful, but she's actually very weak as a squadmate.

[tractrpl]

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

I like Liara but not as much as i use to, she's still my Shep's LI but his and my liking for her have kinda cooled.

Though to stick with the topic at hand
-Liara, Garrus, Tali, and Kaidhley's progress are all really "iffy" and not super logical but i've come to expect that from bioware.

Actually I think Kaiden's promotion is logical, I think he was just promoted to LCDR, same as Ashley, except he was an LT, so he just went up only one rank, while Ashley had to switch to officer and then jump 3 ranks, so basically 4 ranks altogether.

[Emzamination]

Her skin looks as if its made from scales,The back of her head is made of tentacles and the back of her neck has a hole anyone could stick their fingers in.In short, she is a useful squad mate for mobbing but her design makes me uncomfortable with any romantic involvement.

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...

Actually I think Kaiden's promotion is logical, I think he was just promoted to LCDR, same as Ashley, except he was an LT, so he just went up only one rank, while Ashley had to switch to officer and then jump 3 ranks, so basically 4 ranks altogether.

Can you please do some research before spouting off?   Major Alenko outranks Shepard.   Major in the Alliance is an O6 designation, the equivalent of Fleet Captain.    Shepard is only a Staff Commander (O5).

Anyway, Shepard never gets promoted past Commander because he's never on active duty after the end of ME1.    He is dead for two years, then he's operating a civilian/terrorist ship, then he's under arrest.    He's not reinstated to active duty until the start of ME3.

[Legion64]

Emzamination wrote...

Her skin looks as if its made from scales,The back of her head is made of tentacles and the back of her neck has a hole anyone could stick their fingers in.In short, she is a useful squad mate for mobbing but her design makes me uncomfortable with any romantic involvement.

She is alien, you can't really blame her for that, many romance Tali and she looks less human, you can't even see her face and she is still one of the most popular characters and romance.

Though I understand what you're trying to say and respect it. I guess I am just a xenophile.

[Dartbeast54q]

Never played as an Adept in ME1 and still only used her during the Noveria mission for obvious reasons. Never needed her. I dont care for her voice, plus the fact I just dislike most Asari period as they seem as just a play on geek gamer's fantasies about a "hot" all-female alien race.

Edit: Removed some of post forgetting this is a non-spoiler section.

Modifié par Dartbeast54q, 22 avril 2012 - 11:35 .