159 réponses à ce sujet

[Cuddlezarro]

he's a chinese space ninja who runs around with a japanese sword, has pretty much no personality or motives other than haha im a racist douche and his "victory" on thessia was lame since he was such an easy fight at that until cutscene lolgunship happened and his email came off as a damn internet troll

[formshifter]

AvagerShepard wrote...

 I've notieced that some people are really pissed off about Kai Leng having a "plot armor", meaning you can't kill him om Thessia. Well, guess what? You couldn't kill Saren on Virmire either and no one complains about that.

Wtf is wrong with some of you?I know, I am pissed about the endings also. I am pissed about the lack of Harbinger and about the potential that ME3 had and that wasn't used. But guys! That's no reason to bash EVERYTHING in the game. I don't think Kai Leng was so bad, sure, I would like to have an epic boss battle with Harbinger instead of him, but I really don't think it's Kai Lengs fault that that the game was rushed. 

Saren: 
- Carries huge guns.
- Controls Geth based on his charisma and intelligence
- Is a powerful biotic, as is demonstrated in cut-scenes
- Is played up by all your supporting characters as a powerful and extremely resourceful adversary
- Is smart enough to equip shields during cutscenes
- The fight on Virmire is hard as HELL on the higher difficulties, and Saren himself proves to be a damn good fighter (one of the few fights where my allies came close to dying or had to be revived with Unity).
- Even when it is cut short, we don't see him going "LOL, RAILROADING". Saren never STOPS THE FIGHT to recharge/reload. He just keeps fighting you, confident he will win. When the cut scene rolls, we see your allies on the floor, butts whipped, and Shepard himself on the back foot.

Kai Leng: 
- Carries a sword, rarely (if ever) uses his Biotic abilities, and has magic gun hands
- Is allowed to use Cerberus resources courtesy of TIM (and wouldn't have done anything without TIM and traitors)
- Is downplayed as an adversary (Anderson: "I shot his kneecaps off as an old man."; Thane: "Little twit couldn't kill a terminally ill Drell."; TIM: "Don't go picking fights with Shepard." ) Every time he is referred to by someone other than himself, we hear about his incompetence and his lack of ability compared to you or your allies.
- Doesn't know how to use his biotics well (Thane, the terminally ill Drell, kicks his teeth in with a biotic blast he had to charge up for a few seconds)
- The fight on Thessia was. . . underwhelming. He barely, if ever, shoots his gun-glove, has to hit several times to take down the shields of an ally, and often won't even REACH your allies if you know what you're doing.
- Kai Leng was LOSING his fight. . . badly.

WHen you look at them, you come across with two very different pictures. Saren comes off as a powerful and effective adversary who is as dangerous to you as you are to him. Kai Leng comes off as someone barely above your average trooper, who is only able to stop/hinder you thanks to the writing. Hell, we never even SEE Saren personally until Virmire. He's portrayed as being far ahead enough that we can only catch the agents he left behind. Kai Leng just always shows up because "Lol, Plot!" The same reason he stops you.

[ScotGaymer]

People don't complain about Saren because as others said his "battle" on Virmire was presented correctly. And he didn't completely pwn Shepard out of nowhere.

One of the cardinal rules of games development (according to several reliable in industry sources, including Bioware once upon a time) is that you/they should "Assume Nothing About The Player". That is everything you need to know about the game, and about the universe, needs to be presented in game neatly and nicely for the players consumption.
It doesn't matter if it is a sequel, or not. You assume ALL plays are NEW players. That is not to be confused with assuming all the players are idiots however.

Saren was a triumph because everything you needed to know about him was presented in game. You find out he fought in the first contact war, you find out that engendered a certain distaste for humanity that later developed into hatred, you learn about his history with Anderson to demonstrate his slow march towards his fall, and you learn why he is the baddie/what motivates him.
Combine that with the presentation of the battles with him, and it makes his employment of Plot Armour not hurt as much.

Kai Leng by contrast has almost no character development in game. He just sort of pops up and pwns Shepard out of nowhere.
We are expected to simply accept he is this sort of anti-Shepard because TIM says so (never mind that TIM is the anti-Shepard not Kai Leng) and simply expected to accept that Kai Leng is AWESOME. Awesomer than Shepard.
And if we ask a silly thing like WHY he is Awesomer than Shepard, well then go buy the books to find out who he is because they aren't going to tell us anything about him in Mass Effect 3.
Unless you buy the books, or go searching on the internet for metagame information, then Kai Leng is a nameless mook who for no real reason is elevated to secondary villian status.

You should never need meta game information to explain plot points. Never.

And that is why Kai Leng fails, and why people hate him and don't accept his employment of plot armour.

[Topaz Bee]

Kai Leng is somebody's Garu Stu wet dream, who can only appear skilled and threatening by draining all intelligence out of every other character nearby. He even has the mask, flowing black hair, and sword to complete the whole package. Go to fanfiction.net and you can see a million characters just like him.

[Vox Draco]

Saren=Charisma and character, and a true tragic villain you almot meet from the start and gives a face to the threat you are facing

Kai Leng = ? I mean seriously ?

[Cuddlezarro]

formshifter id like to point out that leng isnt a biotic despite being a buffed up phantom (hence why he uses shields instead of barriers and never ever uses biotic abilities)

[ImmovableMover]

Because Saren retreated when he was losing, he did not become invincible once a minute just before he did lose only to recharge to full health.

[Drake-Shepard]

'No, Now its fun'

hahahaha lammee

[AvagerShepard]

Oh dear, none of you seem to understand my question. I didn't like Kai Leng so much either (though I do not hate him as many of you seem to do), I just wonder why it is OK for Saren to have a plot armor and not for Kai Leng. You know, for me it's also annoying that he is just some no name that comes from nowhere and can own one of the best soldiers in the galaxy, but it is pretty obvious that some characters needs to have some plot armor sometimes.

[Tony208]

Saren was a credible villain. Kai Leng is harmless and belongs on a cereal box.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AvagerShepard wrote...

Oh dear, none of you seem to understand my question. I didn't like Kai Leng so much either (though I do not hate him as many of you seem to do), I just wonder why it is OK for Saren to have a plot armor and not for Kai Leng. You know, for me it's also annoying that he is just some no name that comes from nowhere and can own one of the best soldiers in the galaxy, but it is pretty obvious that some characters needs to have some plot armor sometimes.

Because as stated. Saren was build up as a credible threat, that way people have an easier time accepting him having plot armor.

[StElmo]

M920CAIN wrote...

Yes, but Saren was presented properly. Kai Leng looks like a damn joke in most cutscenes. This is why people complain.

honestly, Kai Leng is the least of the game's problems. I thought it was cool they introduced someone new FAIRLY EARLY ON.
Unlike other characters *cough* casper* cough*

[semidefinite]

Kr0gan wrote...

Nostalgia glasses, that's all.

Sorry, but nope. I bought Mass Effect 1&2 on a Steam sale earlier this year and finished Vermire with my third character right after finishing ME3 with the first. So no nostalgia at all. And yes a was annoyed when Saren flew off with his glider and Shepard aimed a pistol (as usual, not the assault rifle I was using) at him and didn't fire. But that is a whole different level than KL on your taxi (fly up and smash him into a bridge, or do something stupid instead), KL trying to assassinate someone (is this cutscene ever going to end or am I not allowed to do anything here?), KL on Thessia (I will kill y- NEED BACKUP! I will k- NEED BACKUP! I wi- here, eat some rockets. Boy, I sure kicked your ass there), KL on the base (now with even more backup and then with heavy breathing, sword dragging Liara looking directly at him in a quiet empty room yet no one notices him because he's a damn Space Ninja!)

tl;dr: For Saren it was one very minor incident of plot armor and he had the decency of not pretending that he kicked your ass. For KL it was like 4 incidents and it was treated like he actually won some fights for no reason whatsoever.

Also, Saran had guns and rockets while KL had backup, more backup and a Cursed Space Sword of Instant Killing. In a Sci-Fi story.

[formshifter]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

formshifter id like to point out that leng isnt a biotic despite being a buffed up phantom (hence why he uses shields instead of barriers and never ever uses biotic abilities)

Actually, he is (or gives off that impression). I had originally thought he wasn't, but I replayed ME3 with a NG+ Soldier. I don't know if I did something different, or if being a higher level with better weapons did anything; however, at one point Shepard has a gun on him and starts shooting (Car chase). The shots are deflected when Kai Leng points his hands at Shepard and forms what seems to be a barrier. Then we see another of his "DERP" moments, when he drops the Barrier to twirl his sword into the car's motor. SHEPARD COULD HAVE SHOT HIM WHEN HE DROPS THE BARRIER! 

So that's at least 3 instances of occasions where you run into Kai Leng, and the developers made your party and Shepard into imbeciles so that he could survive.



PS. If it is some tech, I will edit the post. I'll change "He doesn't know how to use biotics" to "He has no biotics." Some of the favorite antagonists in the game (Saren, Vasir) have been biotics or had some very good tech ability to back them up (Shadowbroker, Warden Kuril on Purgatory).

Modifié par formshifter, 22 avril 2012 - 08:41 .

[Karolus_V]

Kai Leng was a joke, and to add injury, the Boss fights vs him where lackluster and boring.Saren was build up as a credible threat, but in the case of Kai Leng, we are told, not shown. Kai Leng vs a lot of people favourite Drell...the impression is the Drell in better days could kick his ass with ease. First Boss fight: Run to you l, lost shield, he calls mommy gunship and recharge, rinse and repeat until you loss cinematically. Second boss fight: Biggest Threat: mobs. Kai Leng was only a minor annoyance. He has no real punch, he looks bad, his dialogue is near stupid.

Oh, and Saren is central to the plot in ME1, unlike Kai Leng, who seems shoehorned.

[eddieoctane]

Saren didn't plot-armor his way through every confrontation and was the main antagonist of ME1. Kai Leng was an ancillary character from a book who was forced to sub as the final boss and ran away every time he was shot at, even during the final fight.

[bpzrn]

Kai Leng was probably another Casey/Mac BAD one off forced on the rest of the ME team, like the endings

[Lennyoh]

Salfin wrote...

Kai Leng appears at the end of the story out of  nowhere. He doesn't seem to have any real motivations, he doesn't appear to have much character at all. His dialogue is almost nonexistant, and your only real interaction with him is shooting him.

Saren is set up as your rival carefully through the first ME game. He has clear motivation, character, and passion. He believes in what he is doing. He is trying to save the galaxy, even indoctronated as he is.

Saren is a tragic character.

What is Kai leng? Your guess is as good as mine.

Kai Leng is a joke that kills with tooth brushes and eats the cereal of his enemies =). At least his voice actor was cool

[Shepard Wins]

Hahah, I just remembered, when I first saw him I was like "oh look a mook's gonna get wasted". Haven't read Retribution but knew Kai Leng was a villain in it, some elite assassin. I was expecting him to be an evil version of Garrus/Thane. I played with subtitles so as soon as he spoke I went "WTF THAT'S Kai Leng?" xD

Modifié par Shepard Wins, 22 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[lillitheris]

The reason is very simple. It's because the Saren scenarios are handled plausibly.

For example, I have no problem with Kai Leng killing the Councilor (or wounding Thane in a failed attempt to do so). The plot needs to railroad you sometimes.

What I do have a problem with is that the lazy way the scene is written has me and my team stand around like idiots, and Thane act like a 12-year-old rather than one of the best assassins of the time. Especially given the fact that my team could have utterly decimated Leng in about 3 seconds (and we do so in the end).

So, solution? Instead of just Kai Leng in his invulnerability bubble, the scene should be orchestrated so that there's a reason why we can't engage Leng. For example, just as we find the Councilor, there's some rumble and an YMIR and some Cerberus troops storm from the ramp. The Councilor runs a little further to hide, while the Cerberus have the team pinned for a brief time. Optionally Thane could appear and go to the Councilor and maybe engage one lone Cerberus dude. Then, when we're closing on the last Cerbs, go to cutscene with us on the other side of the room, and Kai Leng emerging from the shadow behind the Councilor, either to stab him, or Thane jumping in front of the blade at the last moment. Then Kai Leng takes off, and control returns.

That would be sensible, and satisfying, rather than idiotic.

It's not really a difficult concept, I don't understand why there's a thread about this every single day.

[Nauks]

Electavire wrote...

Because Saren is sexually attractive,

[robertm2]

because people didnt like the ending so they want to nitpick at every single thing in the game they possibly can because the ending bit is getting old and bioware is addressing the issue. so now people want to skim through every single issue no matter how minor it is so they can find something else to hate.

[Belisarius09]

Kai Leng wasn't that bad. He took down Shepard's car on the citadel. I didn't mind him. There were much bigger problems with the game than Kai Leng.

[lillitheris]

robertm2 wrote...

because people didnt like the ending so they want to nitpick at every single thing in the game they possibly can because the ending bit is getting old and bioware is addressing the issue. so now people want to skim through every single issue no matter how minor it is so they can find something else to hate.

Should this be read as your Shepard being so bad at his/her trade (or you being such a terrible player) that you would not have been able to kill Kai Leng if he wasn't invulnerable? You had to cheat and enable god mode in the last fight on the Cerberus, didn't you?