159 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

Belisarius09 wrote...

Kai Leng wasn't that bad. He took down Shepard's car on the citadel. I didn't mind him. There were much bigger problems with the game than Kai Leng.

Just because there are bigger problems with the game, or because people hated the ending, does not invalidate that Kai Leng is a Gary Stu, and makes a horrifically bad villian.

[adembroski]

Kai Leng honestly had no place in ME3 is the main problem. He didn't belong there. Either he needed to be an established character (Miranda deciding to stick with Cerberus would have worked) or simply not exist (a 3rd main villain is generally a bad idea, even as the effective avatar of another).

And, yes, I realize he was in the books... that doesn't make it better. You don't pull from another medium without setting things up for those who aren't exposed to the alternate medium. Bad form.

Saren was the primary villain of the 1st game (you could argue Sovereign was, but you take down Sovereign by defeating Saren, not the other way around). He was well established as a threat (at no point was Kai Leng's badassery displayed, it was assumed we'd "get it"). Plus, he seemed like a gimmick.

Modifié par adembroski, 22 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[Pottumuusi]

Kai Leng was terrible, I laughed at him as he died.

I hated Saren too, but that was the good kind of hate in regards to a villain.

[Arturia Pendragon]

Saren Arterius was a credible villain, Kai Leng is a joke.

[xsdob]

Because mass effect 1 bias.

Modifié par xsdob, 22 avril 2012 - 09:15 .

[Vortex13]

The plot armor situation with Sarren, as stated above, was plausable. The fight on Virmire doesn't artifically extend it's duration by having Saren fly off on his little hover disk every time you took down his shields to "Recharge".

Also Kai Leng is a freaking space ninja... ugh!

Why do sci-fi settings always seem to do that. "Well it's in the future and everyone has guns and personel shields; what would be a good enemy to add?" "Oh I know. A ninja!"

I can see a melee oriented individual working if they got the drop on people (ie Thane in his recruitment mission) but not if they are charging someone with a gun head on.

I don't care how powerful your kung fu is, bullets will win, especially if I shoot you in your smug little face as your running in a straight line at me.

At least they didn't make the robots in the ME universe all anime 20 ft ninja robots, I think I would have traded in my copy of ME3 if the Atlas carried a sword and did ninja flips.

/rant

[tractrpl]

Yeah no sh*t. In ME1, Saren has a good character, but he just hovers around and lets you pump him full of lead, easier than a thresher maw. Kai Leng, now he's as tough to kill and kills you as easily as a thresher maw. A true boss. He was never meant to be a deep character. In the books he's always just a sick son of a b*tch and a threat. He delivered on his promises.

[robertm2]

lillitheris wrote...

robertm2 wrote...

because people didnt like the ending so they want to nitpick at every single thing in the game they possibly can because the ending bit is getting old and bioware is addressing the issue. so now people want to skim through every single issue no matter how minor it is so they can find something else to hate.

Should this be read as your Shepard being so bad at his/her trade (or you being such a terrible player) that you would not have been able to kill Kai Leng if he wasn't invulnerable? You had to cheat and enable god mode in the last fight on the Cerberus, didn't you?

im have no idea how you came to this conclusion but no. it should be read as people whining about every little thing because the ending thing has passed more or less. and no i didnt cheat on me3 i play on xbox and i beat it on insanity my first playthrough. just because you had issues with him doesnt mean other people had to cheat to win. his last fight was a joke the only parts of that game that were challenging were parts with ravagers/harvasters and the fight with the reaper.

[Hudathan]

I like ninjas.

[Funkdrspot]

Part of it is like everything around here. People are mad about the endings so they're nitpicking and lashing out at everything they can

The other part is that Saren doesn't really 'beat' us. He actually loses against us at Virmire but he uses his plot armor to survive.

Meanwhile I'm expected to believe that Kai Leng BEAT me? That Kai Leng could have the helicopter aim at the support beams and just casually walk to Vendetta while I have the floor constantly open up underneath me?

[Spectre Impersonator]

My only complaint with Kai Leng is that both his boss fights are absolute sh*t and he never really beats Shepard in a personal way that makes him threatening. As a character, he was definitely a villain I wanted to kill.

[CasbynessPC]

Saren was Saruman, Kai Leng was Lurtz. That's about all there is to it.

[lillitheris]

robertm2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

robertm2 wrote...

because people didnt like the ending so they want to nitpick at every single thing in the game they possibly can because the ending bit is getting old and bioware is addressing the issue. so now people want to skim through every single issue no matter how minor it is so they can find something else to hate.

Should this be read as your Shepard being so bad at his/her trade (or you being such a terrible player) that you would not have been able to kill Kai Leng if he wasn't invulnerable? You had to cheat and enable god mode in the last fight on the Cerberus, didn't you?

im have no idea how you came to this conclusion but no. it should be read as people whining about every little thing because the ending thing has passed more or less. and no i didnt cheat on me3 i play on xbox and i beat it on insanity my first playthrough. just because you had issues with him doesnt mean other people had to cheat to win. his last fight was a joke the only parts of that game that were challenging were parts with ravagers/harvasters and the fight with the reaper.

So, if you weren't terrible enough to need to cheat to win Kai Leng…why didn't you beat him on the Citadel? He was right there, unprotected. Why didn't you take him out? Or Thessia?

[lillitheris]

tractrpl wrote...

Yeah no sh*t. In ME1, Saren has a good character, but he just hovers around and lets you pump him full of lead, easier than a thresher maw. Kai Leng, now he's as tough to kill and kills you as easily as a thresher maw.

Wow, you must be really terrible! Leng never touched me, let alone came anywhere near killing me…

[Funkdrspot]

lillitheris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yeah no sh*t. In ME1, Saren has a good character, but he just hovers around and lets you pump him full of lead, easier than a thresher maw. Kai Leng, now he's as tough to kill and kills you as easily as a thresher maw.

Wow, you must be really terrible! Leng never touched me, let alone came anywhere near killing me…

It depends on your class. Leng was a joke when i was playing Infiltrator but he was pretty challenging when i was playing Adept. The only thing keeping him away from me when I was an Adept was 'throw' as the biotic explosions weren't working.

[Funkdrspot]

adembroski wrote...

Kai Leng honestly had no place in ME3 is the main problem. He didn't belong there. Either he needed to be an established character (Miranda deciding to stick with Cerberus would have worked) or simply not exist (a 3rd main villain is generally a bad idea, even as the effective avatar of another).

And, yes, I realize he was in the books... that doesn't make it better. You don't pull from another medium without setting things up for those who aren't exposed to the alternate medium. Bad form.

Saren was the primary villain of the 1st game (you could argue Sovereign was, but you take down Sovereign by defeating Saren, not the other way around). He was well established as a threat (at no point was Kai Leng's badassery displayed, it was assumed we'd "get it"). Plus, he seemed like a gimmick.

They pulled him from the books just fine. A whole game is more than enough time to establish a villian. The way you're acting I'd swear they'd added him in a DLC.

The only thing Kai Leng really needed to make him a bada** was to have biotic charge.

[lillitheris]

Funkdrspot wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yeah no sh*t. In ME1, Saren has a good character, but he just hovers around and lets you pump him full of lead, easier than a thresher maw. Kai Leng, now he's as tough to kill and kills you as easily as a thresher maw.

Wow, you must be really terrible! Leng never touched me, let alone came anywhere near killing me…

It depends on your class. Leng was a joke when i was playing Infiltrator but he was pretty challenging when i was playing Adept. The only thing keeping him away from me when I was an Adept was 'throw' as the biotic explosions weren't working.

Sshh, don't tell them, but I'm trying an alternative tactic to see if they realize what the problem with Leng is

[Funkdrspot]

lillitheris wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yeah no sh*t. In ME1, Saren has a good character, but he just hovers around and lets you pump him full of lead, easier than a thresher maw. Kai Leng, now he's as tough to kill and kills you as easily as a thresher maw.

Wow, you must be really terrible! Leng never touched me, let alone came anywhere near killing me…

It depends on your class. Leng was a joke when i was playing Infiltrator but he was pretty challenging when i was playing Adept. The only thing keeping him away from me when I was an Adept was 'throw' as the biotic explosions weren't working.

Sshh, don't tell them, but I'm trying an alternative tactic to see if they realize what the problem with Leng is

Rofl.

[Sifr]

Why was Saren such a great villain?

He was always one step ahead, making Shepard constantly race to keep up with him, often arriving just in the nick of time to prevent disaster.

The reason Shepard is such as great hero in the first game is because they constantly managed to foil him at every turn, always being that thorn in Saren's side... and Saren knows this. It becomes a personal battle of wits between two opponents who recognise each other as a worthy adversary.

This is reflected in that Saren constantly tries to get Shepard on his side, offering Shepard the chance to act as one of the heralds of the Reapers and save themselves. Shepard on the other hand repeatedly tries to offer a hand to make Saren to turn back, joining them instead and prevent the arrival of the Reapers.

They are two sides of the same coin, both nigh-unstoppable warriors who are determined to save the galaxy in their own way. You can even see this mirrored in the groups they assemble to achieve this goal, who counterpoint each other wonderfully.

Saren has the Heretic Geth, Shepard has Tali.
Saren has Cloned Krogan. Shepard has Wrex.
Saren has Turian Assassins. Shepard has Garrus.
Saren has Matriarch Benezia. Shepard has Liara.

And even extends to other parts of the trilogy. While Saren wanted to control and dominate the Heretic Geth and Rachni, Shepard instead earns their loyalty by demonstrating trust and co-operation with them. Saren also wanted to cure the genophage to create an army of Krogan cannon-fodder he could control, while Shepard cures it in order to give a dying race a new lease on life.

Or, should we take the Renegade path, then you'll notice that Shepard IS Saren. Both are brutal, racist, unrepentant murderers who's actions are identical.

Take one example.

Remember when Anderson told you that Saren burned down a factory with innocent civilians, in order to kill their target? Renegade Shepard replies "So would I". And they did. Zaaed's loyalty mission has Renegade Shepard burn down a factory of innocent civilians to kill their target.

The reason why Saren is such a great villain is because he acts as dark mirror or reflection of Shepard themself.

Now tell me, how does Kai-Leng even come close?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 22 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[BigGuy28]

My complaint with him was never "plot armor". It was that he is a horrible character. Ooooo Asian wearing black and carrying a sword, yeah we needed another one of those!

[sth128]

Why people don't complain about Saren:
Saren goes down the second you deplete his health.

Why people complain about Kai-Leng
Kai-Leng stands out in the open to "recharge"

See the difference? If they had simply cued the gunship when Shep wears out Leng's health or at the very least, make Leng hide behind something, then perhaps people would not complain as much.

But "cover me while I recharge" then stands right out in the open in an invincible bubble is just ludicrous.

[KingZayd]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Why was Saren such a great villain?

He was always one step ahead, making Shepard constantly race to keep up with him, often arriving just in the nick of time to prevent disaster.

The reason Shepard is such as great hero in the first game is because they constantly managed to foil him at every turn, always being that thorn in Saren's side... and Saren knows this. It becomes a personal battle of wits between two opponents who recognise each other as a worthy adversary.

This is reflected in that Saren constantly tries to get Shepard on his side, offering Shepard the chance to act as one of the heralds of the Reapers and save themselves. Shepard on the other hand repeatedly tries to offer a hand to make Saren to turn back, joining them instead and prevent the arrival of the Reapers.

They are two sides of the same coin, both nigh-unstoppable warriors who are determined to save the galaxy in their own way. You can even see this mirrored in the groups they assemble to achieve this goal, who counterpoint each other wonderfully.

Saren has the Heretic Geth, Shepard has Tali.
Saren has Cloned Krogan. Shepard has Wrex.
Saren has Turian Assassins. Shepard has Garrus.
Saren has Matriarch Benezia. Shepard has Liara.

And even extends to other parts of the trilogy. While Saren wanted to control and dominate the Heretic Geth and Rachni, Shepard instead earns their loyalty by demonstrating trust and co-operation with them. Saren also wanted to cure the genophage to create an army of Krogan cannon-fodder he could control, while Shepard cures it in order to give a dying race a new lease on life.

Or, should we take the Renegade path, then you'll notice that Shepard IS Saren. Both are brutal, racist, unrepentant murderers who's actions are identical.

Take one example.

Remember when Anderson told you that Saren burned down a factory with innocent civilians, in order to kill their target? Renegade Shepard replies "So would I". And they did. Zaaed's loyalty mission has Renegade Shepard burn down a factory of innocent civilians to kill their target.

The reason why Saren is such a great villain is because he acts as dark mirror or reflection of Shepard themself.

Now tell me, how does Kai-Leng even come close?

Agreed.
The bold part for me is also why it'd be a shame for Shepard not to have to fight indoctrination. Saren was not weak.

[Shajar]

AvagerShepard wrote...

But Kai Leng isn't the main villain. It's TIM or Harbinger (or the Starbrat) that's the bad guys. Kai Leng was just a weapon.

Kai Leng is just stupid thing to attactact more players from Asia 

[Trentgamer]

AvagerShepard wrote...

 I've notieced that some people are really pissed off about Kai Leng having a "plot armor", meaning you can't kill him om Thessia. Well, guess what? You couldn't kill Saren on Virmire either and no one complains about that.

Wtf is wrong with some of you?I know, I am pissed about the endings also. I am pissed about the lack of Harbinger and about the potential that ME3 had and that wasn't used. But guys! That's no reason to bash EVERYTHING in the game. I don't think Kai Leng was so bad, sure, I would like to have an epic boss battle with Harbinger instead of him, but I really don't think it's Kai Lengs fault that that the game was rushed. 

Saren didn't seem out of place like Kai Leng did. A ninja in ME just didn't feel right to me, and the guy was poorly presented. Also the encounter on Thessia was just, well, stupid. They could have made that battle a lot better imo. 

[Dr. Megaverse]

Salfin wrote...

Kai Leng appears at the end of the story out of  nowhere. He doesn't seem to have any real motivations, he doesn't appear to have much character at all. His dialogue is almost nonexistant, and your only real interaction with him is shooting him.

Saren is set up as your rival carefully through the first ME game. He has clear motivation, character, and passion. He believes in what he is doing. He is trying to save the galaxy, even indoctronated as he is.

Saren is a tragic character.

What is Kai leng? Your guess is as good as mine.

This.