43 réponses à ce sujet

[Raxtoren]

I thought the same thing.
While my first reaction was, you never salute your commander in battle, so he can be spotted (cailian wearing a golden armour... at the front lines ) I kind of suspected Cailian was just standing in the front lines for morale support, because Loghain was supposed to flank the enemy with the main army, and thus shouldnt been too much of a threat for Cailian at the front lines.

Remember, Cailian even suggest waiting for the Orlais support (if I remember right) but Loghain disapproves of it.
So Cailian might not be the fool he seems to be suggested to be, because loghain betrays him in two ways.

Modifié par Raxtoren, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[nuculerman]

Rainen89 wrote...

Anyone else feel the entire Tower strategy was completely unnecessary to begin with?

No.  It was a classic military strategy called the hammer and anvil.  The enemy attacks what they assume to be your main forces while in reality you've sent a good portion of your forces within a couple hours march away.  As a result, the enemy believes it has you outnumbered and outmatched and charges with it's full force.  Once they've initiated the battle and hit your front lines, the rest of your force takes up their rear, tearing them a new one from their backs.  The enemy only has three choices; try to fight an enemy from two sides, which gives them a significant number disadvantage at both sides, fight their way out and regroup, which necessarily results in a huge loss to their numbers, or push forward and ignore the rear, which is generally the better strategy, but still isn't exactly a recipe for success.

The only way for the hammer (Loghain's men) to know when to strike is for someone to give them the signal.  Since they're living in a age without cell phones, this is typically done something such as the signal fire the PC lights in the game.

It was a fine plan.  The plan was meant to ensure the blight was ended.  That's the whole point of the hammer and anvil.  It's to trick your enemy into committing too much to a single battle and making them pay for that mistake.  So though Cailin speaks of glory and bravado, he's really not the idiot some people seem to think.

[Must have name]

I think what he means about the tower strategy being completely unnecessary is... why did you need to light a tower to send a signal?



Firstly, the tower is waiting for a signal from Cailans group. If they can see the signal from them to light the beacon, surely Loghains group would see the signal themselves anyway. Likewise, surely Loghain, as a military commander, would be knowledgeable enough to know when to start his flanking manouvre himself anyway. Lighting the tower in the first place is pointless.

[Mnemnosyne]

Loghain's men are positioned out of view of the main fight. Obviously. Because if they were within visual range of the main fight, the darkspawn would see them. And the darkspawn may be somewhat lacking in intelligent tactics or strategy, but they are not complete fools, and they wouldn't charge in and attack the King's forces if they could also see Loghain's men right there waiting to crush them from behind.

You can confirm this when you look at the map at the strategy meeting. The arrows denoting where Loghain and his men are to be stationed before the fight are near where Loghain puts his right hand when he leans onto the table. They're on the other side of the cliff wall that makes the gorge the enemy is being drawn into. The Tower of Ishal is clearly visible, but part of the mountain is in the way of him seeing the actual condition of the battle.

As for him knowing when to start the flanking maneuver himself, he could theoretically guess at the time it would take for the darkspawn to be fully committed to the fight, but why gamble on that guess, when you have a signal mechanism that can tell you with exact certainty when the correct time to attack is?

[Kerilus]

Raxtoren wrote...

I thought the same thing.
While my first reaction was, you never salute your commander in battle, so he can be spotted (cailian wearing a golden armour... at the front lines ) I kind of suspected Cailian was just standing in the front lines for morale support, because Loghain was supposed to flank the enemy with the main army, and thus shouldnt been too much of a threat for Cailian at the front lines.

Remember, Cailian even suggest waiting for the Orlais support (if I remember right) but Loghain disapproves of it.
So Cailian might not be the fool he seems to be suggested to be, because loghain betrays him in two ways.

Well, I think a huge part of the Orlais support argument was to get on Loghain's nerve.

[Darth_Trethon]

Raxtoren wrote...

I thought the same thing.
While my first reaction was, you never salute your commander in battle, so he can be spotted (cailian wearing a golden armour... at the front lines ) I kind of suspected Cailian was just standing in the front lines for morale support, because Loghain was supposed to flank the enemy with the main army, and thus shouldnt been too much of a threat for Cailian at the front lines.

Remember, Cailian even suggest waiting for the Orlais support (if I remember right) but Loghain disapproves of it.
So Cailian might not be the fool he seems to be suggested to be, because loghain betrays him in two ways.

If there's a single thing Loghain got right in the whole of DAO is the simple fact that you do NOT ever in a million years deal with orlesians.....EVER. They are treacherous backstabbers a hundred times worse than Loghain and Howe. They would have instantly turned into conquest mode as soon as the first fight was over if not sooner.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:58 .

[Korva]

Rainen89 wrote...

Anyone else feel the entire Tower strategy was completely unnecessary to begin with?

Yes. It struck me as extremely impractical. How do the people in the Tower know when to light the signal? "Oh, just run there and when you get to the top, light the fire" is a dumb plan. The signal should come from someone who can clearly see the frontlines and can discern the tactically sound moment to bring in Loghain as the "hammer" to crush the darkspawn on Cailan's "anvil". There is no way for the people far down in the canyon which Ostagar overlooks to communicate with the Tower force -- if they had a way to do that, they could have called the reinforcements themselves.

And re: Cailan and Alistair, I know Anora says Cailan knew about his half-brother, but I couldn't bring myself to recruit Loghain even as a "just to see what happens, then I'll reload again" thing -- what does he say about Alistair and Maric?

I don't think Cailan would try to get rid of Alistair, he's a good guy. If anything, I suspect he might be happy that he has a sibling and feel that it adds to the romantic glory of the battle that he, the king, and his brother, the Warden, are both there to show the darkspawn what Fereldans are made of.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I wouldn't call Cailain an idiot. A bit overly enamored with romantic legends and ideas of glorious battles, yes, and it is stated in several places in game that Anora was the one actually running the government, while Cailain was figurehead. An arrangement he was happy with, as he was more interested in the military matters of state. In that way, Alistair is alot like his brother.



Cailain was young and foolish in many ways, but he wasn't a complete idiot, and I believe he is generally a good person trying his best to do what he believes is right. Sure, he is dazzled by the glory and assumed romanticism of the battle, but had Loghain not been a rectal apeture and betrayed him, the battle, more than likely, would have been won, and the blight nipped quickly. He did trust Loghain, and that's the sad part.



As far as sending Alistair to the tower to protect him, that's quite likely. Alistair himself, if you talk to him, states that Cailain was aware of their relation.

[Korva]

I don't think he's an idiot, either. Cailan is someone I liked immediately and wished we could interact more with him. Yes, there was some eye-rolling at his boyish glee about battle and winning glory, but he definitely seems to have a good heart, and as king he needs to show confidence to his troops. I also agree that without Loghain's backstabbing the battle would likely have been won.

[Alcanazar1]

Alistair is sent to the tower for two reasons: to keep him & the newbie safe, and to guarantee that the job gets done. Cailin clearly doesn't see Alistair as a threat, otherwise he wouldn't be on the battlefield. Things you find in Return to Ostagar makes it clear that Cailin doesn't trust Loghain completely. After all, before the battle Cailin & Loghain are fighting about Anora.



Cailin is no fool; it's a shame we don't get to spend more time with him.

[Darkkyn46]

Spoilers are allowed, what does Loghain say about it?

PinkShira wrote...

ahnnajade wrote...



Cailan knew Alistair was his half brother, yes.

Talk to Anora in Eamon's estate at the landsmeet, and she will say as much in the dialogue trees. Everyone knew about Alistair but Alistair, basically. Maric specifically kept Alistair out of court on purpose for whatever reason.

If you save Loghain and talk to him about Alistair and Maric you get your answers. Well, if you believe what he is saying, but at that time I do not believe he is lying.



Dangit nobody... you beat me to it...lol. {smilie}

[AnniLau]

Darkkyn46 wrote...

Spoilers are allowed, what does Loghain say about it?

He's probably wondering why a 3 month old thread needed to be necroposted. 

[Darkkyn46]

AnniLau wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...

Spoilers are allowed, what does Loghain say about it?

He's probably wondering why a 3 month old thread needed to be necroposted. 

Old thread or not, it's new to me!

[Thor Rand Al]

I wish we could of told Alistiar ourselves that it was Cailan's idea about sending him to the tower. Maybe he might of gotten a different perspective of his brother. Instead Alistair thought it was Duncan who sent him. Unless it was Duncan who suggested it before-hand when Cailan and Duncan where talking battle strategies.

[AnniLau]

Darkkyn46 wrote...

Old thread or not, it's new to me!

Sorry, the snark wasn't really for you. I just don't get why people dig up ancient threads like this.

[xzxzxz701]

AnniLau wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...

Old thread or not, it's new to me!

Sorry, the snark wasn't really for you. I just don't get why people dig up ancient threads like this.

They are training to be necromancers, everybody knows that.

[Darkkyn46]

Because it's not ancient if you weren't around when it was originally posted.  It's kind of a catch 22.  If you've been on the forums a while you've seen this question come and go.  If you haven't and start a new thread, people tell you it's been answered already.  If you take the time to search and revive a thread on it, people complain about that.  Not everyone has been here the same amount of time, it makes sense that some of the same questions will be repeated.  A better question would be why go into a thread you feel is tired?  I'm not trying to be rude at all, it's just that different people find different value in different threads.  If this thread doesn't interest you, wouldn't it make more sense to simply skip it?

AnniLau wrote...

Darkkyn46 wrote...

Old thread or not, it's new to me!

Sorry, the snark wasn't really for you. I just don't get why people dig up ancient threads like this.

[Maria13]

Actually, this discussion's been done to death. You might care to look at Murky waters at Ostagar (or what did Cailan know that we don't?).

[Thalorin1919]

Cailan knew of Alistair's presence, and he knew that he was Maric's bastard. Althought he didnt really care, I think he did it to keep Alistair out of the battle if worse comes to worse, which it did.



Makes sense to me. The King knew he was going to die, it seems like he was smart enough to keep Alistair out of the fight though.