196 réponses à ce sujet

[Chezdon]

A manipulating, huge-breasted b*tch? I think there are a lot around!

[Krigwin]

Seagloom wrote...
I must be behind on my manga/anime terminology for having to actually look this up. It fits, alright.

And she knows A&M! Next thing you're going to tell me something crazy like you're a fan of Farscape or Firefly and we're going to have to get married.

As far as tsundere goes, I dunno how I forgot this but it should be familiar to anyone who's played previous Infinity Engine games - Annah-of-the-Shadows from Planescape: Torment, and of course Viconia from BG-BG2.

[Raxtoren]

And here I thought Morrigan was the product of a mother creating a child in her own image.

[Seagloom]

Krigwin wrote...

And she knows A&M! Next thing you're going to tell me something crazy like you're a fan of Farscape or Firefly and we're going to have to get married.

As far as tsundere goes, I dunno how I forgot this but it should be familiar to anyone who's played previous Infinity Engine games - Annah-of-the-Shadows from Planescape: Torment, and of course Viconia from BG-BG2.

Yes, although I do not keep up with it as much nowadays. I can go years without reading manga or watching anime until one that seems unique pops up. The last series I watched to its conclusion was Death Note. (And I will always prefer the manga ending to that one.) Or if a continuation or remake of an old series I enjoyed is made, I watch that too. Most recently, that would be Slayers Revolution and Slayers Evolution-R.

Farscape, not so much. A friend of mine tried to convince me it is worth watching after a chat about DA and Claudia Black went in that direction. Firefly though? Yesss. Although I went into it late, having first watched it in cable reruns long after Fox's cancelation. I eat up all things Whedon though. Angel is probably my favorite show of all time. I loved Buffy and Dr. Horrible too, ect...

I'm definitely familiar with the tsundere archetype. I just never had a term to attach to it. In my first post I mentioned that characters like Morrigan have been done better before. Viconia is one such example in my opinion. I liked Annah too. Not nearly as much as Fall-From-Grace and Morte, but she was fun. Now where's my ring?

Modifié par Seagloom, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:09 .

[Alastrian]

Original182 wrote...

People have the right to live however they want. We all share the world together so we have to learn to get along.

So... we're to just step back and 'respect the opinion' of someone who has openly stated that anyone who doesn't believe as they do is going to burn in hell and that its the duty of every 'righteous' person to arrange their transit there?

Just like how people have the right to smoke themselves to death, or drink till they get liver problems. You cannot tell them hey, you're killing yourself, stop smoking or drinking. That's an even worse way to waste your life on something as damaging as smoking, alcohol and drugs.

When people smoke, the smoke they exhale is harmful to those around them. The actions of alcoholics often hurt more than just the alcoholic (just ask any child who grew up with an alcholic parent). And many addicts of hard drugs are as much a danger to others as they are to themselves.


Sure... people have the 'right' to their idiotic beliefs, or to pump their bodies full of harmful drugs. But everyone else has the right to stay away from the zealot or the junkie for their own safety, and of course, to point out why you ought to do the same.

[felix4200]

Dunhart wrote...

@ Dunhart. Actually while alot of people grow narcissitic during
their teenage years, they actually lose it after a few years, making
them more like Alistair again.

Possibly,

I just never get to meet anyone like that.

If you've had a younger sister go through her teenage years you'd know what i mean.
I can't wait for it to go away for my youngest sister.

Alistair is hardly that strange. He's rather sad about the loss of his father figure, as well as the better life that he saw (compared to how life had been so far), all his friends, but its rather understandable. It does not however keep him from doing what needs doing.

He's a Beta-male, meaning he is more into helping than into leading. This shapes his identity.

Helping other before himself is quite common, and if you want examples a quick study of WW2 should do the trick. Many people helped jews they had never met escaping countries, smuggling things in and out of death camps etc.

[Lughsan35]

PinkShira wrote...

Forget Morrigan.. where is my real life Alistair dang it?!!!!

I'm right here :innocent:

[Krigwin]

Oh dear god, she's a Whedon fan and likes Angel (I too harbor the blasphemous belief that Angel is the best Whedon show, but don't tell anyone or the Firefly crowd will hang us!).

I... I think I need to be alone in my tent for a moment.

[Original182]

Buffy and Angel's forbidden vampire love was before Twilight. It deserves special mention.

[fantasypisces]

Here is why I like Morrigan's character so much. (to read the short version, read below the -------------)

She grew up in complete isolation, with only her mother (and the occasional guests -- queu skull and crossbones--) for company. So in essence, everything Morrigan knows, she knows from her Mother, because that is all she can relate to. Take the two out of the Korcari Wilds, but keep flemith's personality the same, but put them in... say.... Seattle. Morrigan would be very different based upon the social interaction she would have had with others.

She values power, views love, religion, and other things as weakness. Why? Because that is what she was taught to believe, and had them beaten (literally) into her. This quest to kill the Archdemon is the first time she really goes off on her own for an EXTENDED period of time, away from her mother, away from the wilds. She forms bonds (whether good or bad) with the PC and the rest of the companions. Through her interactions you can begin to see her old preconveived notions changing. Becoming a friend of someone, being romantically involved with someone, these are new to her, and through her dialogue you can see her struggling to come to terms with what she has been taught, and what she sees. Ultimately, she does manipulate the other characters throughout the the game, but she does change, even if just a little bit.

She is not an evil person (chaotic neutral, I hold that stance), but the product of her mother. She does what she has been taught, and does not like wasting time. For instance, Connor. She says it is best to just kill him rather than wasting time. Yes, killing kids is bad, but try to see it from her point of view. If you don't Kill Connor, and you take the 2-3 days to go to the circle and back, think about the destruction the possessed kid could have done by then. Technically it is the Demons fault. But is saving one child worth the lives of dozens of others. A lot of us would argue yes, it is worth it saving the child because he is an innocent youth. Morrigan does not see it that way. She sees the kid being foolish enough to make a pact with a Demon. Therefore, in her mind, it is better to kill the kid, rather than have the demon possessing him kill dozens of others. And I hate to say it, but it does make sense. However, we were raised with the afformentioned attitude that the child is innocent, he didn't know what he was doing.

Late on through the game, especially if you romance her and find her the mirror, she softens up. She beings to change, and understand why you do what it is you do. This can also be seen through the persuade checks. "Why would you want to destroy the anvil, such an item of power that you could use" destroy the anvil, lose 5-10 approval (can't remember). But if you persuade her "how would you like to become a golem, if all I cared for was power then I would turn you into one, yadi ya" it only becomes -1 approval. She still disapproves because she still views it as wrong, but ultimately you showed her a different point she didn't understand, or wouldn't think of, because it was something she was not taught.

For the jewelry portion. It isn't because she is so enraptured with beauty, that she only wants to be beautiful and is therefore self-centered. It is because she never had such items. Remember the mirror story carefully. She found the mirror to be gorgeous, but something she would never have. Living in the wilds there is no use for jewelry, there is a use for survival. So why does she like jewelry, it isn't because she is so concerned with beauty, it is because she wants to be a women. Women have jewelry, but she never did. It is the same in real life. Why do others like foreign cultures so much? Because they have things you don't, or do things you like that aren't present in your own culture.

---------------------------------------
Anyway, to conclude and summarize. Morrigan is the product of her Mother, she is what her mother taught her to be. But throughout the storyline you can see her changing her personality. Ultimately she goes through with her plan, but the epilogue (and my own opinion) leave the impression that she was changed, if at least a little. That evolution in her character, a character that many see as a stone-cold b**ch, is what makes her interesting, because she goes through more character development (in regards to her personality) than any of the others. Leliana, Sten, Oghren, Wynn, Zevran, Shale, Dog, they don't change, they remain the same. Alistair changes ONLY if you harden him, otherwise he is the same character throughout.

That is why I find her interesting. But I am an anthropologist, so I tend to overanalyze those types of things, the cultural factors, etc.

So this is why there are not many Morrigan's in real life, because how many people (in a "modern" society) are raised like that? Very very very few. Magic also plays a big part in it all. She is learned to distrust people because she is an apostate, therefore she is always hunted. I can gurantee if magic did not exist in her world, she would be different as well.

For my part, I find her very interesting, and through that interest my character developed feelings for her. Would I develop feelings like that with someone in real life? Probably not, because I would not be put in a situation where you deal with the person 24/7 for months, it would most likely be a co-worker who I would ignore. Now if I was in an area with a small population (or lost in the wilderness) with someone like Morrigan, would I develop feelings for them? It's possible, because I would be forced to get to know them. And by getting to know each other and finding the deeper feelings and opinions embedded in someone is where real romance comes from. Not just what is on the outside, or the image they project to others.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:59 .

[Maconbar]

Gecon wrote...

I prefer Leliana.

Theres not enough redheads with french accent !

In fact, theres simply not enough redheads. With cute accents, french or otherwise.

I totally agree!

[Curlain]

Krigwin wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
I must be behind on my manga/anime terminology for having to actually look this up. It fits, alright.

As far as tsundere goes, I dunno how I forgot this but it should be familiar to anyone who's played previous Infinity Engine games - Annah-of-the-Shadows from Planescape: Torment, and of course Viconia from BG-BG2.

To be fair Annah became kinda sweet further on in the game (though I agree, Fall-From-Grace was my favourite, really enjoyed the subtle romance element you could have there), she actually does care about the Nameless One (and has great dialogue with Morte, and he's just awesome).  And I actually think Viconia is actually a much more together person then Morrigan (allowing for the different natures of the universe etc), she isn't just parroting what her mother (or the Drow or Lolth religion in her case) told her but has her own mind (for instance in debates with other BG charaters she both sees the weaknesses of the Drow culture, kiling each other all the time, even if she mantains some of what she ses as their strengths, as an argument for self-determisation).  Also she is capable of growth as a character which sadly Morrigan is just to damaged a person to ultimately do.

Morrigan is a slave to power, and not even her desire for power but is a slave to her mother's desires for power and ambition, and in the end is unable to step out of those chains and really think for herself or find out what she really wants.  Even if she enters into a romance with the PC and begins to see there may be other things in life she might desire/want, or more to life then her mother told her, she is in the end to damaged a person emotionally to step out of the beliefs and views her mother indoctronated into her, and is ulitmately incapable of doing anything other then following her mother's will to the letter, she doesn't know how else to behave.  In this respect I regard her as a tragic character.

Modifié par Curlain, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[fantasypisces]

Curlain wrote...

Krigwin wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
I must be behind on my manga/anime terminology for having to actually look this up. It fits, alright.

As far as tsundere goes, I dunno how I forgot this but it should be familiar to anyone who's played previous Infinity Engine games - Annah-of-the-Shadows from Planescape: Torment, and of course Viconia from BG-BG2.

Morrigan is a slave to power, and not even her desire for power but is a slave to her mother's desires for power and ambition, and in the end is unable to step out of those chains and really think for herself or find out what she really wants.  Even if she enters into a romance with the PC and begins to see there may be other things in life she might desire/want, or more to life then her mother told her, she is in the end to damaged a person emotionally to step out of the beliefs and views her mother indoctronated into her, and is ulitmately incapable of doing anything other then following her mother's will to the letter, she doesn't know how else to behave.  In this respect I regard her as a tragic character.

Apparently I ramble, you said it better and in much shorter style then I did. bravo.

[stethnorun]

Statulos wrote...

Ayn Rand´s bs is just that, bs. If every human followed a purely nihilist approach to life we´d still be living in caves.

If you knew the first thing about Ayn Rand, you would know that nihilism is about the furthest from Objectivism as you can get. Howard Roark builds a temple to the greatness of Man in The Fountainhead. How is that nihilistic? Rand is all about production, self esteem, pride and bettering one's self and one's mind. Again, the opposite of nihilism. Try again.

[HoLyEmperor]

Dose of perspective: Every one of the characters you pick up in DAO has significant social problems. Every single one of them, except the dog. Morrigan just wears hers a bit more openly. Think about it.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Kuravid wrote...

She's also defensive, narcissistic, insecure and hostile.

Yes she is but she also develops over the plot to being very likable at the end. However, I am still doubting the critical thinking skills of somebody who sees me get rewards for helping people all the time and then has the gall to act like I am working for free when I agree to help somebody...

Redcliff was a whole lot of me wanting a "Slap Morrigan til she pays attention" button...

[EricHVela]

HoLyEmperor wrote...

Dose of perspective: Every one of the characters you pick up in DAO has significant social problems. Every single one of them, except the dog. Morrigan just wears hers a bit more openly. Think about it.

If you mean by "openly" that she denies having any problems and claims that it's everyone else who has problems, then yes.

[HoLyEmperor]

ReggarBlane wrote...
If you mean by "openly" that she denies having any problems and claims that it's everyone else who has problems, then yes.

That's not what I mean by "openly."  Sten and Shale wear theirs quite openly too, if that helps.

[stethnorun]

HoLyEmperor wrote...

Dose of perspective: Every one of the characters you pick up in DAO has significant social problems. Every single one of them, except the dog. Morrigan just wears hers a bit more openly. Think about it.

Yeah I'd have to say, if anyone has major parent issues, it's Morrigan. They all do have issues, but the Original Poster's claim that she is all confidence and strength shows that, yet again, people mistake a constructed facade for real, quiet and calm inner peace. Someone who was truly confident and strong wouldn't have to go to such great lengths to cover up her vulnerabilities. Truly strong people expose their vulnerabilities to the world and don't flinch, because they've made their peace with them.

[HoLyEmperor]

stethnorun wrote...

HoLyEmperor wrote...

Dose of perspective: Every one of the characters you pick up in DAO has significant social problems. Every single one of them, except the dog. Morrigan just wears hers a bit more openly. Think about it.

Yeah I'd have to say, if anyone has major parent issues, it's Morrigan. They all do have issues, but the Original Poster's claim that she is all confidence and strength shows that, yet again, people mistake a constructed facade for real, quiet and calm inner peace. Someone who was truly confident and strong wouldn't have to go to such great lengths to cover up her vulnerabilities. Truly strong people expose their vulnerabilities to the world and don't flinch, because they've made their peace with them.

And to Morrigan's credit, she's able to learn from the PC and begin doubting or second-guessing her facade by the end of the game.  She sticks to the plan, but she can be made to express regret.  I can't say the same for Wynne.  ;-)

[Curlain]

That's not entirely the case, if you take Wynne on the Sacred Urn quest, the Guardian spirit confronts her with the possibly that she could be wrong in her adherence to the Circle and the Chantry, in following them without question. She states that she like anyone else has doubts, but she faces them, I like that about her, even if I don't agree with all her stances, she doesn't follow something blindly, but faces questions about her beliefs and faith, and acknowledges doubts, and then decided on what she believed, so isn't a blind fanitic but a thoughtful believer.



She also showed regret over Anarian (or however you spell that elven apprentice's name how was found among the Dalish woods) for her harsh teaching of him

[HoLyEmperor]

Curlain wrote...

That's not entirely the case, if you take Wynne on the Sacred Urn quest, the Guardian spirit confronts her with the possibly that she could be wrong in her adherence to the Circle and the Chantry, in following them without question. She states that she like anyone else has doubts, but she faces them, I like that about her, even if I don't agree with all her stances, she doesn't follow something blindly, but faces questions about her beliefs and faith, and acknowledges doubts, and then decided on what she believed, so isn't a blind fanitic but a thoughtful believer.

She also showed regret over Anarian (or however you spell that elven apprentice's name how was found among the Dalish woods) for her harsh teaching of him

On the other hand, Wynne is the only character who has attacked me for stepping outside of her views.  She's just as much locked in her worldview as Morrigan.  Not that I blame Wynne, really, but it's not necessarily "evil" or "wrong" to want to make sure no blood mages or abominations get out of the Tower.  The templar commander outside certainly isn't "evil" and he called for Annulment, thinking he was taking a good and right course of action.  Her intolerence of Apostates (try taking Morrigan into the tower when you first meet Wynne) is thoroughly dogmatic and irrational.  Just saying.

Leliana, on the other hand, expresses doubt about Chantry dogma and actually is willing to form her own conclusions.  Likewise when she's faced with her past.  She deals with it and moves on.  To me, she's actually the most mature of the characters despite her significant self doubts.  Alistair, on the other hand, is more or less crippled by his self doubts.

Modifié par HoLyEmperor, 07 décembre 2009 - 04:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

My gf is exactly like Morrigan. Almost a perfect copy.....except the magic sadly. Heck when she plays the game, she just plays with Morrigan.

And there are supposed to be few Morrigans. It's their rarity that make them so....desirable.