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People hate the asari?


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#201
Tom Lehrer

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MakeMineMako wrote...


What I would like to know is how the Prothean beacon was kept secret for so long. The Asari have no strong central governing authority (they run things by consensus and open policy debates, with the public participating) and no central military authority. Sure, the Matriarchs have a lot of clout. But they don't rule absolutely.

Before the loose-knit global legislature, they were divided into what amounted to autonomous city-states rather than true nation-states like exists on Earth. They traded openly and shared ideas. That culture of sharing, openess, and understanding is still strong today amongst the Asari. Hell, when the Council was formed, this Asari cultural mindset was probably part of why the Salarian Union sold out the ultra-secretive League of One to appease the Asari.

A Prothean beacon being kept hidden from allies (and their own people) for so long, to maintain a strategic advantage, goes against what we know about Asari cultural values and their loose knit political structure. The more open a society is, the harder it is to keep secrets of a huge magnitude.  


ME3 seems to hint that the Matriarchs are the real power in Asari government. We hear they are powerful leaders in the first two games but in ME3 they come out as the real power behind the throne.

#202
MisterJB

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sistersafetypin wrote...
Wow, humans are awesome. We should have just killed the Reapers with that!

Our awesome.

We did.

Speaking of facts.... Medigel is of human creation? I don't recall hearing this... Source? [For the stealth drives as well.]

Also, medigel & stealth drives [if you are telling the truth, which is iffy] not the kind of thing a government keeps on the dl. However a big shiny that they think came from their Goddess?

No sane asari Matriarch would ever believe that technology which is, clearly, of prothean origin came from a goddess. They tried to hide the truth by making Athane look more like them over the millenia.

How about you do your own research before questioning other people? Fine, Medigel was created by Sirta Foundation which is a human foundation. And considering that the first ever Stealth Drive was aboard a Human vessel, the Normandy, logic dictates humans created it.

Also, Medigel and Stealth Drives would give humanity a tremendous edge in any war but you say that it's not something you keep under wraps.

Please refer to the above. And as far as I'm concerned... What's the point of attempting to further this discussion when you apply double standards everywhere and make up facts when you're not doing that?

Do you have anything of value that didn't originate in headcannon?

It's called "logic". But no, go on believing that the asari just chose to share power willingly. Or that the embassies have any say in what the Council decides.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 avril 2012 - 05:37 .


#203
Tom Lehrer

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sistersafetypin wrote...

Speaking of facts.... Medigel is of human creation? I don't recall hearing this... Source? [For the stealth drives as well.]


Human medical group Sirta made medigel in violation of Citadel genetic research laws but has not been outlawed because its so usefull. 

The stealth drive was first used on the Normandy and the info on how to make it was given to the council. The Salerians used these human based drives to create stealth dreadnaughts.

In the codex.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 23 avril 2012 - 05:40 .


#204
JKuz

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Shock n Awe wrote...

I don't really have anything against them, but as has been said they don't really seem invested into the war effort until bad things begin happening to the Asari. A lot of the other species see their own kind being killed/transformed into husks and don't say much of it, but when it begins happening to the Asari all of a sudden it's an absolute atrocity and they can't believe that it's happening to them, because they're grand and should be immune to it.


This is a Human thing too, think about how 9/11 affected the American psyche. And that was a minor love tap compaired to what goes on around the world, the last time Americans fought on home soil was 1865, and that was the civil war. Now amplify that to over a millenia and a half of peace. I can guarentee you that Asari think that they are super special pincesses. That is because historically, and in living memory (And guddamn long memory at that) it has been true. The inclusive social order that they built with the Citadel Council has been a hundred times more effective than any military hegemony, they've abandoned the archaic Social Darwinist thinking and built something that is as close as you can get to a utopia in life. Thats why the Reapers are such an unthinkable Out of Context Problem. There is no barganing, no talking, no sharing just murder. And the Asari cannot deal with something so outside their experiance. This is the entire Asari mindset being overturned in an instant, the first reaction to that is Denial, which is where the Asari are at because its only been a matter of weeks (!). I can easily see anyone acting as such in those circumstances

#205
sistersafetypin

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Tom Lehrer wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Speaking of facts.... Medigel is of human creation? I don't recall hearing this... Source? [For the stealth drives as well.]


Human medical group Sirta made medigel in violation of Citadel genetic research laws but has not been outlawed because its so usefull. 

The stealth drive was first used on the Normandy and the info on how to make it was given to the council. The Salerians used these human based drives to create stealth dreadnaughts.

In the codex.


Thanks :D [But the Normandy was made with the Turians and it just seems more likely it came from them. Especially considering the Alliance brass you meet in ME1 seems highly unimpressed with the waste of money put into stealth]

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 23 avril 2012 - 05:45 .


#206
SaltyWaffles-PD

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JKuz wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

I don't really have anything against them, but as has been said they don't really seem invested into the war effort until bad things begin happening to the Asari. A lot of the other species see their own kind being killed/transformed into husks and don't say much of it, but when it begins happening to the Asari all of a sudden it's an absolute atrocity and they can't believe that it's happening to them, because they're grand and should be immune to it.


This is a Human thing too, think about how 9/11 affected the American psyche. And that was a minor love tap compaired to what goes on around the world, the last time Americans fought on home soil was 1865, and that was the civil war. Now amplify that to over a millenia and a half of peace. I can guarentee you that Asari think that they are super special pincesses. That is because historically, and in living memory (And guddamn long memory at that) it has been true. The inclusive social order that they built with the Citadel Council has been a hundred times more effective than any military hegemony, they've abandoned the archaic Social Darwinist thinking and built something that is as close as you can get to a utopia in life. Thats why the Reapers are such an unthinkable Out of Context Problem. There is no barganing, no talking, no sharing just murder. And the Asari cannot deal with something so outside their experiance. This is the entire Asari mindset being overturned in an instant, the first reaction to that is Denial, which is where the Asari are at because its only been a matter of weeks (!). I can easily see anyone acting as such in those circumstances


Erm, no, that wasn't the impact or context of 9/11 at all. America had been attacked on its own soil many times before, and it HAS fought wars on its own soil. Apparently, a lot of people forget the War of 1812 (at the very least) ever happened.

It was shocking because it was terrorism on a completley unprecedented scale and level, and of a completely unforeseen nature--hijacking passenger jets and flying them straight into skyscrapers as living missiles, to kill as many people (thousands) as possible? It shocked the WORLD. And the US is far from the only place to suffer major terrorist attacks since then; the UK, for one, Israel (though that's not new; been going on for decades), and more.

The Asari, story-wise, are all about complacency. Even in the face of the Reapers, they were too complacent, and it was only when reality rained hell on them at their home, en masse, that things became completely apparent--their entire culture and mentality towards war, deplomacy, tactics, contingencies, etc. were completely incompatable with the situation they found themselves in, and they couldn't effectively cope.

#207
sistersafetypin

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MisterJB wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Do you have anything of value that didn't originate in headcannon?

It's called "logic". But no, go on believing that the asari just chose to share power willingly. Or that the embassies have any say in what the Council decides.


I will thanks. Because when I use logic, I don't use double standards. Because then it's not logic, it's opinion

#208
sistersafetypin

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SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

JKuz wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

I don't really have anything against them, but as has been said they don't really seem invested into the war effort until bad things begin happening to the Asari. A lot of the other species see their own kind being killed/transformed into husks and don't say much of it, but when it begins happening to the Asari all of a sudden it's an absolute atrocity and they can't believe that it's happening to them, because they're grand and should be immune to it.


This is a Human thing too, think about how 9/11 affected the American psyche. And that was a minor love tap compaired to what goes on around the world, the last time Americans fought on home soil was 1865, and that was the civil war. Now amplify that to over a millenia and a half of peace. I can guarentee you that Asari think that they are super special pincesses. That is because historically, and in living memory (And guddamn long memory at that) it has been true. The inclusive social order that they built with the Citadel Council has been a hundred times more effective than any military hegemony, they've abandoned the archaic Social Darwinist thinking and built something that is as close as you can get to a utopia in life. Thats why the Reapers are such an unthinkable Out of Context Problem. There is no barganing, no talking, no sharing just murder. And the Asari cannot deal with something so outside their experiance. This is the entire Asari mindset being overturned in an instant, the first reaction to that is Denial, which is where the Asari are at because its only been a matter of weeks (!). I can easily see anyone acting as such in those circumstances


The Asari, story-wise, are all about complacency. Even in the face of the Reapers, they were too complacent, and it was only when reality rained hell on them at their home, en masse, that things became completely apparent--their entire culture and mentality towards war, deplomacy, tactics, contingencies, etc. were completely incompatable with the situation they found themselves in, and they couldn't effectively cope.


I think you're both kind of right [on the Asari.] Matriarch Aethyta talks about this in ME2 about how the Asari need to spend more time training their daughters. But then like JK said, in game you find out this is the first time Thessia has been threatened since the Rachni. They were unprepared. 

#209
Tom Lehrer

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sistersafetypin wrote...

Thanks :D [But the Normandy was made with the Turians and it just seems more likely it came from them. Especially considering the Alliance brass you meet in ME1 seems highly unimpressed with the waste of money put into stealth]


Turians are not stealth fighters. They never had to think about it since they had the Asari and Salerians for that kind of stuff.

The game says Salerian stealth drives were based on Human not Turian plans so the tech behind that part of the Normandy was all human.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 23 avril 2012 - 05:57 .


#210
sistersafetypin

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Tom Lehrer wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Thanks :D [But the Normandy was made with the Turians and it just seems more likely it came from them. Especially considering the Alliance brass you meet in ME1 seems highly unimpressed with the waste of money put into stealth]


Turians are not stealth fighters. They never had to think about it since they had the Asari and Salerians for that kind of stuff.

The game says Salerian stealth drives were based on Human not Turian plans.


Turians use tactics. Tactics would involve stealth at times

#211
SaltyWaffles-PD

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sistersafetypin wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Speaking of facts.... Medigel is of human creation? I don't recall hearing this... Source? [For the stealth drives as well.]


Human medical group Sirta made medigel in violation of Citadel genetic research laws but has not been outlawed because its so usefull. 

The stealth drive was first used on the Normandy and the info on how to make it was given to the council. The Salerians used these human based drives to create stealth dreadnaughts.

In the codex.


Thanks :D [But the Normandy was made with the Turians and it just seems more likely it came from them. Especially considering the Alliance brass you meet in ME1 seems highly unimpressed with the waste of money put into stealth]


Sort of; the ship's design was a cooperative effort between the Heirarchy and the Alliance; the CIC layout reflects this, as does the very bird-like shape/design. The stealth drive tech, though, is implied to be a human innovation. However, the effort was in part funded by the Council--a wise move; they saw humanity as allies and eventually close (and even MORE powerful) allies, and the stealth tech (and the lessons learned from the Normandy's performance) would eventually be willingly shared with the rest of the Council species, which it was. Even without the Reapers in the picture, I think it's likely that the Alliance would have willingly shared that tech with the Council sometime around 2186; provided the Council is saved in ME1, humanity really starts to become part of the peacekeeping/diplomatic/intelligence/stability dynamic that the Council races have.

Despite how stupid and problematic the Council's handling of the whole Reaper situation is/was, their handling of humanity was actually quite good; they (or at least the asari and salarian parts) decided to channel humanity's relentless ambition and growing power/influence into a coexisting, positive force instead of being a disliked obstacle to be forcefully overcome.

And it paid off, by ME1 (again, especially provided the DA is saved; realistically, it would have been done without much in the way of Alliance casualties, but even then, you'd have FAR more to gain by saving the DA than by letting it die and leaving your flank open to a geth fleet--and having a massive, heavily armored dreadnaught to ram Sovereign just in case is definitely worth even the loss of a few cruisers); humanity's political ambition largely stops with Council membership, and it makes sense: I think humans, in general, want to have a fair say in any government that has significant authority over them--they don't actually want to go further than that.

#212
Tom Lehrer

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sistersafetypin wrote...

Turians use tactics. Tactics would involve stealth at times



Large scale fleet tactics are hardly stealthy no matter how hard one tries to make it so.

#213
Bleachrude

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Er, a couple of points.

1. Sirta was founded b a human but that doesn't mean anything. Remember, Binary-Helix was founded by humans but the majority shareholder was Saren and Benzenia and their main research topics (genophage and the rachini) were under the behest of Saren.

2. Similarly, the Normandy is weird in that we don't actually know what the turians actually contributed. When you talk to Victus, he talks about the spirit of cooperation created by the joining of turian and human engineering.

If humanity had the beacon AND found the citadel first, I'm sorry to say but I don't think humanity would have created a working council a la the OTL. It would definitely be closer to what the Prothean empire was or AT BEST, it would be like the Federation which is pretty much human centric organization...

#214
SaltyWaffles-PD

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sistersafetypin wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Thanks :D [But the Normandy was made with the Turians and it just seems more likely it came from them. Especially considering the Alliance brass you meet in ME1 seems highly unimpressed with the waste of money put into stealth]


Turians are not stealth fighters. They never had to think about it since they had the Asari and Salerians for that kind of stuff.

The game says Salerian stealth drives were based on Human not Turian plans.


Turians use tactics. Tactics would involve stealth at times


Very true, but the Codex does make it pretty clear that the stealth tech was mainly a human innovation that was willingly shared with the rest of the Council races around ME2-ME3. Of course, seeing as the Normandy SR1 was partly funded by the Council, it makes sense that they'd do so (especially given that pretty much everyone catches on that humanity's only real potential enemy is the Batarian Hegemony and the slaver/pirate groups it covertly funds).

The turians do incorporate human innovations into their tactics and military, though, too: they had at least two carriers by ME3, which played a critical role in the Battle for Palaven. However, the Heirarchy's cultural and historical background on war suggests that stealth has never been much of a focus--if they go to war, it's with overwhelming force straight through the front door; beyond ground-side infantry operations or the occassional "hide some ships behind this planet", stealth is just plain unecessary.

#215
sistersafetypin

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SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Thanks :D [But the Normandy was made with the Turians and it just seems more likely it came from them. Especially considering the Alliance brass you meet in ME1 seems highly unimpressed with the waste of money put into stealth]


Turians are not stealth fighters. They never had to think about it since they had the Asari and Salerians for that kind of stuff.

The game says Salerian stealth drives were based on Human not Turian plans.


Turians use tactics. Tactics would involve stealth at times


Very true, but the Codex does make it pretty clear that the stealth tech was mainly a human innovation that was willingly shared with the rest of the Council races around ME2-ME3. Of course, seeing as the Normandy SR1 was partly funded by the Council, it makes sense that they'd do so (especially given that pretty much everyone catches on that humanity's only real potential enemy is the Batarian Hegemony and the slaver/pirate groups it covertly funds).

The turians do incorporate human innovations into their tactics and military, though, too: they had at least two carriers by ME3, which played a critical role in the Battle for Palaven. However, the Heirarchy's cultural and historical background on war suggests that stealth has never been much of a focus--if they go to war, it's with overwhelming force straight through the front door; beyond ground-side infantry operations or the occassional "hide some ships behind this planet", stealth is just plain unecessary.




Ok, So the humans are definitely behind the Stealth. Got it [I admit I didn't read the codex entries about the Ships] I just figured since Turians seemed to be using the hit and run tactics against the Reapers Stealth was at least a part of the repetoir

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 23 avril 2012 - 06:11 .


#216
Anezay

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Strangely, though I have nothing about biotics, the individuals who are biotics all provoke hatred in me for some reason. Like biotic-ism instills annoying personality traits. Anyway, I can't remember a single Asari that invoked positive emotions in me, just hatred or apathy.
Also, in ME3, Earth is like Hiroshima, so Shepard goes to get help and the Alliance begins building the Crucible. Palaven is like Nagasaki, so the Turians gather allies and Garrus joins Shepard. Thessia is like Iraq, and Liara won't stop ****ing about it while the government does nothing. Real races do something about their homeworlds.

#217
JKuz

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SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

JKuz wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

I don't really have anything against them, but as has been said they don't really seem invested into the war effort until bad things begin happening to the Asari. A lot of the other species see their own kind being killed/transformed into husks and don't say much of it, but when it begins happening to the Asari all of a sudden it's an absolute atrocity and they can't believe that it's happening to them, because they're grand and should be immune to it.


This is a Human thing too, think about how 9/11 affected the American psyche. And that was a minor love tap compaired to what goes on around the world, the last time Americans fought on home soil was 1865, and that was the civil war. Now amplify that to over a millenia and a half of peace. I can guarentee you that Asari think that they are super special pincesses. That is because historically, and in living memory (And guddamn long memory at that) it has been true. The inclusive social order that they built with the Citadel Council has been a hundred times more effective than any military hegemony, they've abandoned the archaic Social Darwinist thinking and built something that is as close as you can get to a utopia in life. Thats why the Reapers are such an unthinkable Out of Context Problem. There is no barganing, no talking, no sharing just murder. And the Asari cannot deal with something so outside their experiance. This is the entire Asari mindset being overturned in an instant, the first reaction to that is Denial, which is where the Asari are at because its only been a matter of weeks (!). I can easily see anyone acting as such in those circumstances


Erm, no, that wasn't the impact or context of 9/11 at all. America had been attacked on its own soil many times before, and it HAS fought wars on its own soil. Apparently, a lot of people forget the War of 1812 (at the very least) ever happened.

It was shocking because it was terrorism on a completley unprecedented scale and level, and of a completely unforeseen nature--hijacking passenger jets and flying them straight into skyscrapers as living missiles, to kill as many people (thousands) as possible? It shocked the WORLD. And the US is far from the only place to suffer major terrorist attacks since then; the UK, for one, Israel (though that's not new; been going on for decades), and more.

The Asari, story-wise, are all about complacency. Even in the face of the Reapers, they were too complacent, and it was only when reality rained hell on them at their home, en masse, that things became completely apparent--their entire culture and mentality towards war, deplomacy, tactics, contingencies, etc. were completely incompatable with the situation they found themselves in, and they couldn't effectively cope.


Yes but all those times were past. The last existential threat to the United States ended when the Soviet Union collapsed in '91. They were calling it the "End of History". A decade later a single attack led the American populace to untertake two wars (One entirely unrelated to the Attacks) and curtail civil rights to the entire population to a degree and length unprecedented in the republic's history. The events that happened/ are happening around the world are entirely unreal to most First World citizens, genocides happen on a semi-regular basis, and the response is generally "That's terrible, sucks to be you". Three thousand dead in a single day (Which as these things go is a quite serious event) is bad yes. But American responce is not "Hunt down the terrorists, and end this threat", it ends up being "End everything that even worships in a similar fasion". I saw calls for reprisals that essentially walked nukes down the guddamn Nile for no apparent reason other than "Moslem". THAT. THAT is Nations in conflict and always will be.

I'm getting off topic here. The poin that I was trying to make is that the closest that any society in living memory to the Asari's situation is the United States populace at the moment on september 11th when they realized, that bad things don't just happen out there, they can happen here too. Try to recapture that feeling from the 90s when the United States was the sole pre-eminent superpower, China is still decades away the European Union isn't really a thing, and the American military apparatus will perserve peace across the globe in a grand Pax Americana.

Now take that feeling and expand it for thousands of years of Pax Asari, interrupted (However harshly) by the Rachni wars, and Krogan rebbellions. Of Course the Asari are complacent, they've won civilization, they'd established a grand stable coalition that left the Asari people safe. And even the emergence of new races didn't disrupt that equilibruim, see how deftly they handled Humanity.

Pax Asari is founded not on military or even economic hegemony (Even if they posses those) but on a smile and a kind word. I find it hard to belive that such deply held belifes could be changes in mere weeks of negative reports from the front lines. It would take either years of personnel returning from the front lines or (What Did happen) a single overwhelming blow to the group consiousness to let the full situation sink in.

#218
tobiasks

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I certainly don't hate them!

#219
Melra

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The asari are annoying and every single one of them is more or less the same. Turians have far greater variety among their people and are far more interesting. Asari are just silly species created to please those who want "F/F" & "M/F" romances using one and the same character.

They're absolutely dull race. My favorites will always be dem humies.

#220
TeaCokeProphet

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Well, asari are a stupid concept at the very least.

#221
troyk2027

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Billyg3453 wrote...

Quick Edit: Another issue people have is Shep's forced emotional reaction to the fall of Thessia. He gets very angry and depressed regardless of how the player feels, which generally matches up.


Yes, Shep's forced emo phase was a bit odd. When Saren escaped on Virmire Shep didn't dye his hair black and start blasting Linkin Park on the Normandy's loudspeakers.



TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Well, asari are a stupid concept at the very least.


Also this.

Modifié par troyk2027, 23 avril 2012 - 08:02 .


#222
tg0618

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I like the Asari, next to humans they're my favorite race.

#223
Marixus99.9

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sistersafetypin wrote...

Ok, So the humans are definitely behind the Stealth. Got it [I admit I didn't read the codex entries about the Ships] I just figured since Turians seemed to be using the hit and run tactics against the Reapers Stealth was at least a part of the repetoir


It would help if you did .. this information was known since ME1. The ignorance is only hurting your arguments ...

Edit: The turian part of the Normandy was the bridge design

Modifié par Marixus99.9, 23 avril 2012 - 08:57 .


#224
MstrJedi Kyle

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MisterJB wrote...

Also, everytime I hear Liara complain about figthing Banshees, I feel like screaming:
"Asari, what do you think that those Husks we have been killing since day 1 used to be!?"


This got to me too. The complaining about Banshees and Marauders and how horrible that they used to be Asari and Turians. But with the husks no one cares. More humans died as husks in ME1 than Asari did in ME3. Add in the husks from 2 and 3 and you've killed ALOT of former humans, yet it doesn't bother anyone.

#225
bas_kon

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I don't hate them, but I dislike them because they are way too over the top.
Besides, they are atractive to everyone, even more than the members of their own species and can mate with every anyone regardless of gender/DNA, always resulting in another asari.
They are very dangerous because they could wipe out every species of the galaxy just by sex. They are blue reapers with boobs!!! Lol