68 réponses à ce sujet

[TeleProd]

I would very much like to see my choices in DA1 have an impact in DA2. I'm quite interested in Mass Effect 2 because it allows me to play with my character from Mass Effect. I'm hoping to see something similar in Dragon Age 2. I understand it would be a design nightmare to make all the choices fit together. Some choices could be left unmentioned, some mentioned a few times throughout the game and some of the bigger ones work something like the origins.



I'm just hoping BioWare takes this into consideration (or already has taken) when deciding on how they're going to continue. Can't ask for much else.

[fantasypisces]

Exactly. The little choices don't really need to be mentioned (especially if taking place outside of Ferelden). The bigger choices could be mentioned. It isn't hard to say a couple different lines from the voice actors then code whichever one into the game instead of the others. They could just be passing comments (ala, all those gossip people). Then as I said earlier, the game breaking/story creating decisions would be a seperate starting chapter.

[Archonsg]

I don't think they will do a "transfer of choices" since it'll ****** off as many (perhaps more so) people as it would please due to so many choices that the PC could have made. Making a "cannon" version would also be a no-no in my opinion for the same reason.
More then likely, we'd have an expansion that will deal perhaps 30-50 years into the future, both the PC and Allister would be dead either to the calling or other less honorable means, possibly the wardens in Ferelden now face the same problems that Sophia Dryden faced, Anora is in power and is bitter about the past. Instead of fighting a blight, this time the wardens are fighting for survival. Your quest starts as one of the many recruits (hence making all race /class selection possible) and you need to find a way to save the Wardens holding off the siege up in their fortress. You will need to forge new alliances, perhaps go to Weisshaupt Fortress to get help from the Andel Wardens or perhaps even to Tevinter.

Just a thought.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:15 .

[FedericoV]

I think that the DEVs should choose an established ending, maybe with pools on the social network... I don't know. Even because it would be hard to write DA's books after the 5th blight without an established ending of some sort.



It would be simpler and they could focus more on the next story.



And I suppose than in a DA:O 2 you will start with a different charachter (at least I hope so: it would not make a lot of sense to start from lvl 1 again with the hero of Ferelden). I hope that the story will start in Ferelden and then develop through the whole of Thedas (the Qunari invasion scenario is interesting, but most of all I want to see the Tevinter Imperium).



For me the better "shared" epilogue would be:



- Anora Queen/Alistair King.

-The Warden is alive and has reorganized the GW in Ferelden.

-Morrigain is raising the demon baby.

[Archonsg]

FedericoV wrote...

For me the better "shared" epilogue would be:

- Anora Queen/Alistair King.
-The Warden is alive and has reorganized the GW in Ferelden.
-Morrigain is raising the demon baby.

But you see, I'll bet some players like myself would have said that Anora refused to marry Allister (maybe him chopping her father's head off has something to do with that) and I personally saw to it that it happened. 

Making a cannon version that effects any of the choices you made is bad I would think. Instead, the devs can focus on what cannot be denied. Anora is alive, Morrigan has a child, Wardens had a base and tensions are still high even after the blight had ended.  Any canon verision based on these facts everyone can accept, though it would be interesting to see just how Bioware is gonna juggle this little web of intrique they have set up for themselves.

[gotthammer]

I'd personally like to continue using the character I finished DA:O with, along with all the consequences and whatnot. Kinda like what BioWare has stated will be the case with Mass Effect 2.

[Inarai]

Archonsg wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

For me the better "shared" epilogue would be:

- Anora Queen/Alistair King.
-The Warden is alive and has reorganized the GW in Ferelden.
-Morrigain is raising the demon baby.

But you see, I'll bet some players like myself would have said that Anora refused to marry Allister (maybe him chopping her father's head off has something to do with that) and I personally saw to it that it happened. 

Making a cannon version that effects any of the choices you made is bad I would think. Instead, the devs can focus on what cannot be denied. Anora is alive, Morrigan has a child, Wardens had a base and tensions are still high even after the blight had ended.  Any canon verision based on these facts everyone can accept, though it would be interesting to see just how Bioware is gonna juggle this little web of intrique they have set up for themselves.

I'm going to assume they have a plan in place for decisions to carry through in a series of some sort of planned length, much like I assume they planned with Mass Effect.  They set up these decisions knowing that they might need to account for them, or work with them.

[Archonsg]

Inarai wrote...

I'm going to assume they have a plan in place for decisions to carry through in a series of some sort of planned length, much like I assume they planned with Mass Effect.  They set up these decisions knowing that they might need to account for them, or work with them.

The fanboi in me wants to believe that. Seriously I do. :happy:
Though after 5 playthroughs, and now going on 6, and I haven't really played the the game exactly the same way twice it will be an almost impossible task to take into account everything you did. Even if they only focus on the four different "main" areas, Redcliffe, Mages Circle, Ozzamar and Denerim not to mention the various possible endings, that's alot to take into account.
For example, I took great pains to make sure EVERYONE survived in Redcliffe, yes, even that lout of a tavern owner who'd swing a sword like he's weilding a mug of ale, would that be reflected in the next game? I mean it would be awesome to visit Redcliffe village and hear a minstrel there sing a song "The Battle of Redcliffe" telling the tale of great heroism and how the wardens not only saved everyone but everyone who fought and survived in the battle had a verse, no?

[Xandurpein]

I personally don't think that the MC from DA:O will figure in DA2. It is just too much of a big ending and seriously the choices made are too many. DLC, such as "Return to Ostergard" might provide an epilogue and some additional closure, but it makes more sense to me that you start with a new character somewhere else in DA2.

I also think Morrigan's baby will play a pivotal role in DA2. Isn't that what the title of the game says. Dragon Age:Orgins. Orgins of what? Morrigans child is my guess.

[FedericoV]

Archonsg wrote...

But you see, I'll bet some players like myself would have said that Anora refused to marry Allister (maybe him chopping her father's head off has something to do with that) and I personally saw to it that it happened. 

Making a cannon version that effects any of the choices you made is bad I would think. Instead, the devs can focus on what cannot be denied. Anora is alive, Morrigan has a child, Wardens had a base and tensions are still high even after the blight had ended.  Any canon verision based on these facts everyone can accept, though it would be interesting to see just how Bioware is gonna juggle this little web of intrique they have set up for themselves.

You cannot make a game starting from 10 different epilogues imho (not to count each decision you have made about the various reigns and power group in ferelden). They can't account for each decision you have made during the game. It would ask too many variations: that would not be one game but ten different games. Imho, off course.

For example, you cannot make a game where Morrigain have or haven't gave birth to the demon baby being the dark ritual a potential major plot line that needs to be resolved in some way.

I would prefer to see more new content with a canon ending even if it does not match my choices. Otherwise a good half of the game development would be about accounting for your choices and it would be boring and convoluted.

Btw, I would not like to be in Gaider's shoes having to write a book post 5th Blight where Anora is queen or isn't queen.

At the end, Mass Effect is simpler. There were not as many choices if not for the romance and something here and there if I remember well. For DA:O a canon is a necessity. Maybe they could use the social site to decide what is canon and what not leaving the choice to the majority of users.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[Archonsg]

FedericoV wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

But you see, I'll bet some players like myself would have said that Anora refused to marry Allister (maybe him chopping her father's head off has something to do with that) and I personally saw to it that it happened. 

Making a cannon version that effects any of the choices you made is bad I would think. Instead, the devs can focus on what cannot be denied. Anora is alive, Morrigan has a child, Wardens had a base and tensions are still high even after the blight had ended.  Any canon verision based on these facts everyone can accept, though it would be interesting to see just how Bioware is gonna juggle this little web of intrique they have set up for themselves.

You cannot make a game starting from 10 different epilogues imho (not to count each decision you have made about the various reigns and power group in ferelden). They can't account for each decision you have made during the game. It would ask too many variations: that would not be one game but ten different games. Imho, off course.

For example, you cannot make a game where Morrigain have or haven't gave birth to the demon baby being the dark ritual a potential major plot line that needs to be resolved in some way.

I would prefer to see more new content with a canon ending even if it does not match my choices. Otherwise a good half of the game development would be about accounting for your choices and it would be boring and convoluted.

Btw, I would not like to be in Gaider's shoes having to write a book post 5th Blight where Anora is queen or isn't queen.

At the end, Mass Effect is simpler. There were not as many choices if not for the romance and something here and there if I remember well. For DA:O a canon is a necessity. Maybe they could use the social site to decide what is canon and what not leaving the choice to the majority of users.

I agree with you, that is why I think they can't account for multiple choices like that in Mass Effect, which really comes down to a few things, such as, did you let the Rachi Queen live, did you save the council, whom did you romanced and who did you sacrificed at Virmire, more or less. In DA:O ..the only are so many "main" plots that even if they made a canon version, it might not sit well with fans.
Rather, don't you think it would easier and far better to move the game time into the future and focus on the non-changeables at the time of the epilouge. Namely, that Anora is alive, Wardens have a new base, Morrigan was with child and political tensions are still high.
Don't get me wrong, if Bioware can find a good way to fit some or most of the key choices we made while playing DA:O, I would love them (even more then now) for it, but I am not sure if they can do so.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:15 .

[fantasypisces]

And I am of the opposite opinion. There have been many interviews where the developers state that the story will most likely take place outside of Fereleden, and that it would most likely not involve a blight. Therefore, a lot of the player choices would only just be referenced, but not have much (if any) impact. So my earlier statements still stand, with there only really being three starting stories. And after a couple of hours of playing, no matter how you started, every player would then be at the same point moving on into the new story.

Starting a brand new character in a sequal is not better. It is a waste of time. It would be like loading up HALO 2 to find that it is a different Master Sarg (or whatever his name is, I'm not much of a fps guy, but it is a popular series).

Just like how you have the option to continue your character from BG1 to BGII, it is an RPG, you get involved in your character. I can bet there would be more outrage having to start a brand new character then there would be keeping your old one. Because people want to feel there choices have consequences.

I'll tell you all what. If it turns out that for DAII we don't keep our old characters, then I will do this. Not save Sten. Destroy the circle killing Wynne. Take Shale to the anvil and side with Branka. Defile the urn killing Leliana. make Zevran hate me so he turns on me when Crows show up. Try to ****** off Oghren (is that possible?) enough so he fights me and I kill him. Tell Morrigan she is a worthless cold b*tch so that she leaves. Then let Loghain become a warden, having Alistair leave. Then the final battle would be me (a Mage), Loghain, Dog, and possibly Oghren (seriously, can you make him mad?). With me forcing Loghain to sacrifice himself while I marry his daughter, and secretly plot to overthrow Ferelden.

Why would I do all that? Why not, because it doesn't matter.

Edit: Oh, and I would kill Connor without hesitating, there is no reason not to afterall, none of it matters.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:28 .

[FedericoV]

@fantasypisces: The choices you have made are important for your gaming experience in DA:O. A sequel do not change them. If the game do not sold well and we do not see a sequel, your choices would not became less important.



And a lot of players have allready replayed the game with different choices (considering RP and origins). I plan to do the same thing and honestly I cannot say for myself if I prefer the heroic sacrifice ending or the selfish dark ritual ending. They are both appealing for me for different reasons. I can't say if in a sequel I prefer to see Belhen or old Harrowmont as king of Orzhamar. I don't know if I would like to see a golem army or not. I could continue.



Moreover, DA is a franchise with games, books and an RPG. A canon of some sort is necessary to franchises. I like to read Gaider books and he can't possibly write a book post 5th blight settled in Ferelden if they do not choose a canon.



About the old charachter, I don't know. I think that it's easier to start from scratch. I think that the story of my old charachter is finished and it would not make a lot of sense to start from level 1 again with the hero of Ferelden.

[Alex Savchovsky]

FedericoV wrote...

@fantasypisces: The choices you have made are important for your gaming experience in DA:O. A sequel do not change them.

True enough. But if they are disregarded in a sequel, that would break its the experience.

[FedericoV]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

@fantasypisces: The choices you have made are important for your gaming experience in DA:O. A sequel do not change them.

True enough. But if they are disregarded in a sequel, that would break its the experience.

That's subjective. I understand personal expectations. But if we put aside personal experiences you must agree that a canon is the simpler solution. And it's hard to build a game on the personal expectations of 2 milions players.

I have played D&D (many different settings), Vampire The Masquerade, Legend of the five rings, Amber diceless RPG, etc. etc. etc. Everytime a new edition was published, I never complained about the fact that in the new setting I wasn't considered the slayer of the Zentharim, the new boss of the Camarilla, the new king of Amber or the heir of Youichi-Ban .

That's what I mean. In RPG is normal to build your version of the settings and to accept a canon when your adventure is finished and you want to start another one.

Even in BG there was a canon ending. I mean, I never bringed with me Kalhid and Jaheira. In my game I had Branwen and Kiwan with me. Kalhid dies heroically in the Gnoll fortress and Jaheira has leaved to murn for her loss .

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[Gilded Age]

FedericoV wrote...

Moreover, DA is a franchise with games, books and an RPG. A canon of some sort is necessary to franchises. I like to read Gaider books and he can't possibly write a book post 5th blight settled in Ferelden if they do not choose a canon.

Stop beating the "must have a canon" drum.  It's making me grind my teeth.  Dragon Age: Origins is a role-playing game.  The nature of RPGs is that you can play the "role" you want, in the that way you want, and make the choices you want.  Having a canon ending to an RPG completely destroys the "role-playing" aspect of the game and makes your gaming choices 100% irrelevant if you're not playing the canon way.  No thank you; if you're so eager to have things spelled out for you, there are plenty of hack 'n slash action games with a set, canon ending.  

[Archonsg]

We can hope though that this won't be the course that they will take no? I mean, while having a canon version is the easiest way out, I am pretty sure it would indeed be a bit to swallow.

One of the best "end" experience I had was when I played my Elven AW, chose Allister for king and did the ultimate sacrifice. The ending had me crying man tears and because my actions the lives of elves everywhere improved with humans now willing and accepting elven brides and husbands. If there is a canon version where say based on the Human Noble ending, and throwing away all that I have done for the wardens and elves, I would feel somewhat at a loss for words, and I am sure I won't be the only one.

But then after a proper mourning period, I'd probably be banging away at the sequel regardless.
Still does not mean I won't be pissed.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[Allattar1]

I think there are two possibilities for a sequel.



I guess the first is have a Canon ending. Forget consistency with your save.



Second would be to set the game up such that events shape themselves.



For instance, regardless of whether you managed to oblige Morrigan, or if you denied her request. (Or even if you told the templars she was an apostate) Somehow Morrigan is able to give birth to a child with the soul of the Old god.



If she could not persuade the Warden, then an alternative ritual could be performed.



Fereldans ruler could be an interesting one, despite where the game takes place I guess there are only a few alternatives. Alistair is king, Anora is queen, the PC is king/queen with Alistair/Anora.

Any sequel then I guess needs to take place with new characters. You hear of the people on the fereldan throne, but may not meet them.



(If Alistair ran away becuase of Loghain being made a warden, well you might meet the drunken bitter Alistair, but otherwise you probably won't.)



Meeting your old character could be interesting



However the major elements of blight being over, archdemon dead or easy to resolve



What could be interesting is setting the game in a time of religious upheaval with the Chantry eager for a new glorious march on the dwarves.

[Alex Savchovsky]

FedericoV wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

@fantasypisces: The choices you have made are important for your gaming experience in DA:O. A sequel do not change them.

True enough. But if they are disregarded in a sequel, that would break its the experience.

That's subjective. I understand personal expectations. But if we put aside personal experiences you must agree that a canon is the simpler solution. And it's hard to build a game on the personal expectations of 2 milions players.

I agree on that. Still it makes me wonder why did they let you make so many decisions that affect the world at the end of the game? They make a better connection between the player and the game world, but it's the same connection that will get severed if they are not carried on in a sequel. I don't know if the trade-off is positive or not. IMO, the initial impression of a game is quite important and I would be reluctant to risk breaking it.

[FedericoV]

Gilded Age wrote...
Stop beating the "must have a canon" drum.  It's making me grind my teeth.  Dragon Age: Origins is a role-playing game.  The nature of RPGs is that you can play the "role" you want, in the that way you want, and make the choices you want.  Having a canon ending to an RPG completely destroys the "role-playing" aspect of the game and makes your gaming choices 100% irrelevant if you're not playing the canon way.  No thank you; if you're so eager to have things spelled out for you, there are plenty of hack 'n slash action games with a set, canon ending.  

You can grind your teeth as much as you want. That do not change the fact that it's really complicated to cover all the choices you have made in DA:O with a sequel. Care to explain me how would you manage such a feature? Do you understand that it would ask 10 games to manage it properly? Or that they should settle the sequel in context that do not take in consideration by any mean the choice you have made just for the sake of avoiding offences to any personal preferences?

Then, if you enjoy being disappointed, you can have all the expectations you desire: it's a free world. I prefer to have a pragmatic approach. If they find a way to cover my choices in a meaningfull and coherent way, I will be happy as all of you. Since I do not think that it's really possible I will accept a canon gladly and prepair for the choices that I will face in the next game without regrets.

Ah, the fact about canon ending that kills roleplay is pure nonsense. You allways roleplay in a given context. The choices you have made in DA:O are significant for that gaming context. The context could change but it will be roleplaying no matter what. So, cut the crap and just admit that you are too attached to your DA:O's avatar to accept a different ending than the one you choose. That at least it's honest.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[fantasypisces]

Yes, even if they do a canon ending the choices are still important. But you miss my point. My point is that it is a cop out. What is the point of putting all these difficult choices in front of you, then -------NOT resolving the story----- only to have some other character deal with those choices. That is my point. It is an RPG, not a canon story like Halo or some other such game.



I have played a lot of RPG's as well. And your canon wish is still mind-boggling. For DnD, if I put a lot of time into a character, I don't want it to simply be: "Ok guys, that was a fun adventure, time to make new ones!" unless my character's (or the group's) story was resolved (or my character died, naturally). Unless you sacrificed yourself, or refused Morrigan's offer, your characters story is not resolved. But even for the first two, Morrigan's child puts everyone's story on a cliffhanger. You even mention in your posts the continuation of the STORY, it isn't the continuation of HISTORY. Our story is not over, only that period in history is. Does that make sense?



If it does become a canon ending will I play the sequel? Yes. Will I be pissed, you can bet your butt I would be. Because I would be jipped.



To your other point, if a sequel was never made, would I be mad? Yes, because I want to continue he story. But I feel my choices would then have more wait in a standalone game as opposed to a canon game because I could pretend an ending that fits how I played my character. The point being, I conclude my characters story. (which would be finding Morrigan, winning her heart back, raising the child to become a beacon for the old religion, to oppose the Chantry, hoorah. Then dying in battle, obviously. Stupid 30 years to live.)

[FedericoV]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

I agree on that. Still it makes me wonder why did they let you make so many decisions that affect the world at the end of the game? They make a better connection between the player and the game world, but it's the same connection that will get severed if they are not carried on in a sequel. I don't know if the trade-off is positive or not. IMO, the initial impression of a game is quite important and I would be reluctant to risk breaking it.

Because that's the way a SP RPG should be allways builded, sequel or not. Choices and Consquences should be the bread and butter of such games, only Bioware seem to remember that. Everyone should experience a different story because of their roleplay, sequel or not. And choices should matter in the story. That's the nature of CRPG. I could quit gaming in the time needed to prepair the sequel, but that would not turn my choices in DA:O in meaningless actions since I've experienced and felt them in my story.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:21 .

[Archonsg]

Allattar1 wrote...

I think there are two possibilities for a sequel.

I guess the first is have a Canon ending. Forget consistency with your save.

Second would be to set the game up such that events shape themselves.

For instance, regardless of whether you managed to oblige Morrigan, or if you denied her request. (Or even if you told the templars she was an apostate) Somehow Morrigan is able to give birth to a child with the soul of the Old god.

If she could not persuade the Warden, then an alternative ritual could be performed.

Fereldans ruler could be an interesting one, despite where the game takes place I guess there are only a few alternatives. Alistair is king, Anora is queen, the PC is king/queen with Alistair/Anora.
Any sequel then I guess needs to take place with new characters. You hear of the people on the fereldan throne, but may not meet them.

(If Alistair ran away becuase of Loghain being made a warden, well you might meet the drunken bitter Alistair, but otherwise you probably won't.)

Meeting your old character could be interesting

However the major elements of blight being over, archdemon dead or easy to resolve

What could be interesting is setting the game in a time of religious upheaval with the Chantry eager for a new glorious march on the dwarves.

There is one very important aspect that would be trivialized
if they made a cannon and that would be your choice to either take the killing
blow and make the ultimate sacrifice, make the deal with Morrigan or allow
Loghain or Allister to die in your stead. All of which I would say are
rather major plot points and choosing one over the other, well...is just wrong
and won't gel well for those who would have preferred one choice over the
other.

For one thing, if they choose to have DA:2 to be about your main character from
DA:O, that means that the choice of Ultimate Sacrifice had been trivialized.
One of the most powerful and beautiful endings in the game (in my opinion) just
made inconsequential.

The same could be said if you disregard the choice between
you and Morrigan.

Blame Bioware for writing a game with a story so good we
care deeply enough to want our choices to mean something.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[FedericoV]

fantasypisces wrote...

Yes, even if they do a canon ending the choices are still important. But you miss my point. My point is that it is a cop out. What is the point of putting all these difficult choices in front of you, then -------NOT resolving the story----- only to have some other character deal with those choices. That is my point. It is an RPG, not a canon story like Halo or some other such game.

Brief introduction: I understand your points and your wishes on the subjective side too. I feel the same way. I'm only trying to be pratical and trying to look at those issues with "dev's glasses" (as far as I can, obviously). Even to avoid bitter delusions.

For me it's not a cop out because I've enjoyed making those difficult choices and to see unexpected consequences during the story for the fun of it. The point for me wasn't if those choices would have affected the future of Ferelden or not, but if it was fun and meaningfull to experience them while I was playing DA:O. I've played DA:O and not the whole franchise .  

I mean, on my first playthrough I become king. But at the end I was not happy with that final and I choose to replay the last chapters only to make Allistair king with Anora as Queen. I've yet to finish the second version of my final and they are both fun and interesting to play. I don't mind if in the next game Alistair has sacrificed for the good of ferelden and I would find a rather bit hollow to start the game as the king of Ferelden.

At the end, the only real cliffhanger in the final is Morrigain. Well, you have to admit that it's hard to close that storyline if you do not choose a canon with her.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:24 .

[Maedryc]

I would like to see my PC transferred

Specifically, as an NPC that could join my party in the late/end game.

This way, you could carry him over to the next game without deleveling him and you could port the story through dialog options with him.