52 réponses à ce sujet

[12monkeys]

hi guys.

i'm playing a lvl 9-ish human ranger. i have alistair, leilana and morrigan in my party, and a wolf (which does not stay with me in transition areas). (hello dark alley thugs in denerim. my my, there's five of us and about 15 of you. hardly a battle in our favor, but wait 'til you see my wolfy. oops, where is he?) i just got to denerim after finishing all those quests in redcliffe. at this point, i am really, really getting tired of all the swarms of enemies the game throws at you. the combat in this game feels a lot like icewind dale ii, at least to me. "party of adventurers goes on a daring quest to save the world; therefore, stop them by throwing lots of enemies, cast a lot of disabling spells, cast a lot of damage-dealing spells, throw goblin archers, goblin worg riders, orc shamans, goblin sorcerers and what-have-yous in the mix.  (replace goblins and orcs with genlocks and hurlocks). there's the challenge in the game.

pray tell me now, is this going to be like this until the game ends? if it is going to be like this, i will stop playing now. the start of the game was tolerable: hit and run, pulling/sniping tactics works fine. check.

as the game progresses (i've clocked in at about 12 hrs of gameplay), however, i'm beginning to adopt other "tactics", which is fine by me. but the sheer number of enemies in this game is overwhelming. i do not mind a challenge. for example, the fight with the ogre at the top of the ishal tower is really, really fun and challenging. that is the kind of a battle i would love to do over and over again. i wouldn't mind having my characters killed to a dangerous foe like that, but getting to him stood a ridiculous number of enemies that i have to defeat. at that point, it was tolerable.

forward to denerim and its infamous back alleys. oh my word! enemies galore. not to mention those damn archers. how i wish my archers (my character and leilana) could dish out as much damage as those enemy archers can. so okay, after countless reloads (and waiting for the cooldown on my summon wolf) and deaths after, i finally beat them. whew! (wipes sweat on forehead) this is beginning to be tougher than icewind dale ii. which made me think, the fight in the back/dark alleys of denerim are tougher than the fight with the lost followers in iwd ii. anyway, onwards to another quest, this time involving mages. now again, i wouldn't mind a battle with enemy mages. i've had countless memorable battles with them in rpg's (baldur's gate, nwnx, etc.). but this particular quest in denerim made me stop playing the game and ponder hard on whether i should continue. there's just too many of them and their cohorts. there's a mage and fighters in the first hallway, another group in a room, another waiting for you in a trapped hallway, and a much larger group in a much larger room. and like what i indicated on the subject, this is getting tiresome.

and if you guys care to know, i did not get this feeling when i played neverwinter nights 2 and mask of the betrayer. now those games i truly enjoyed playing from beginning to end, especially motb. i lost track anymore of how many times i replayed them. both didn't give me the tedium i am experiencing right now. instead, what they gave me were good storylines, (especially, again, motb), a very enjoyable cast of companions whom i've all grown to love in the course of the campaigns. (yes, even grobnar i love to have around ) , and a combat which i found is "challenging", not overwhelm you with the sheer force of numbers over and over and over again. the dark/back alley battles in denerim make the warehouse battle in nwn2 feel like a walk in the park. anyways, i really cared about my companions when they fell in battle, and i'm guessing it is because they really gave me a sense of being part of a team. they each had their own roles to play, and they did it so well. yes, even gann in motb. even though a lot of people say "spirit shaman underpowered! go play a frenzied berserker or an rdd!", he had a role to play in my party and he played it to perfection, not to mention that his background story is one of the best i've ever come across in an rpg.  very good background stories + very handy in combat situations = makes for a very good partymate in my book. 

but in dao, how can i feel the same for my companions when they die so often (along with my char) in battle? for example, i'm building alistair to be a tank. i've invested all the shield skills i can, yet after a few rounds in battle (and lot of arrows), he's dead meat. i do not know if i've built him correctly, or it's just the sheer number of enemies ganging up on my party. i'm guessing it could be the latter. i've tinkered around with tactics, but for the most part, i just manually take over each char. same result: dead party.

this is getting to be a long post. enough said for now.

[JJM152]

Yes the game is very hard. You should give up.

[DeepGray]

Your mage should cast more AoE. You should Line of Sight pull archers if you can. Turn the difficulty down if you really suck.

[Avaraen]

Through most of the game, I find parking the party and pulling creatures to them works fine, and it's generally reasonable amounts of creatures that can be split up as long as you don't charge full speed into a room. The back alleys are the worst of the nasty, huge swarms of mobs, although there are a couple others here and there in the game. Fortunately, the back alleys are side-quests and entirely optional if you find them overaly difficult. You can also go do something else and come back when you have more levels and better spells (group heal, and crowd control like sleep, waking nightmare, force field, etc.). You might also want to turn down the difficulty while you get a feel for the game and how to manage your tactics (manual and automatic).

[Chragen]

To be blunt you need to learn to play, and I mean that in a good way, not trying to be a ******

But when I played through the game the first time I played on normal as a 2h warrior and I had Leliana, Alistair and Wynne in my party, and I found the game hard. Though I personally enjoy that.



Now I'm playing through the game on nightmare as a dagger/dagger rogue with Alistair Wynne and Morrigan and I find it easier now then on normal. And this is without using any of the really cheap spells that make the game trivial like Forcefield tanking, Storm of the Century, constant cone of cold, ect. Nor do I use any potions at all. Used about 7 in total so far and I've got 1/5 of the game left.



But the biggest difference I noticed in my play through now that I think contributed to the game feeling really easy even on nightmare is just knowing the game mechanics.

I'm not sure how you've trained Alistair and Morrigan, but I suggest if you havn't done so already to get taunt ASAP with Alistair. That ability alone will change everything.

Also if you haven't trained any of the healing spells with Morrigan then I really recommend you do that. Regeneration is amazing and getting spirit healer and group heal the moment you reach level 14 will make combat much more enjoyable.



But I know the place you're referring to and the archers there are a pain in the backside. All I can suggest for that area is spread out to avoid the Scattershot stun and just get agro with Alistair and keep him alive while you kill the archers one by one.

Also using line of sight where possible in Denerim really helps.



Hope that helps a little since Dragon Age is absolutely worth playing. Best RPG since Throne of Bhaal came out for me. Shame it couldn't be as great as the baldurs gate series, but maybe it will get there in time

[Finiffa]

I hate people telling others, who come here for advice, how much they "suck". Please, if you dont wanna help, then don't reply.



For the OP: I think lvl 9 is a bit low for these quests since your mage (Morrigan in your case) does not have a lot mass crowd control/mass destruction spells yet. And your party isn't very strong either. I usually go for Warden Keep, the Circle then Redcliffe and when I go off to Denerim to find Brother Genitivi I do these quests. I will be at least 3 levels higher by then and while they are still challeging I get by a lot better. I also want to add: I like the these quests the least of everything in this game....

[Love-Buzz]

I'll answer your real question.

The Denerim back alleys are by far the lowest points of the game, as they all look and feel the same, and if you do the quests all at once, it's an absolute monotony overload. You do encounter some similar situations later in the game, but there is a lot of really fun stuff between that point and where you are.

I would recommend going to the Circle of Magi asap, as it's a pretty drastic change of pace from Denerim. It's pretty atmospheric and while it has a lot of room-to-room fighting, the enemies are cool and the difficulty lies in their nature rather than sheer numbers.

----

As far as advice goes, you should probably ditch Leliana asap if you an archer yourself. Another tank or another mage would go a long way in battles, as archer dps is very low early game. Don't ever use Aim, only use Rapid shot if your crit % is <10.

Finally, the difficulty settings basically force you to pause and control each character to be successful, especially in tough fights. You might be able to get away with not microing your tanks, but it really helps if you do. I found the early-mid game the hardest on my first playthru, as the majority of the challenge really is controlling your party optimally (once you can, nightmare is a cakewalk). I would probably recommend getting another mage (*COUGH*gothemagetower*COUGH*), as they tend to make things easier (cone of cold, fireball, crushing prison are all great - check out spell combos on the dragon age wiki for more ideas if u want), though to they take some micro. Taunt is a very good skill to have on your warrior as well.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[Dinlek]

I'll pitch in as well.



Dragon Age combat is extremely unique, I think, in the scale of it. Unlike other RPGs, you aren't going to encounter very many one-man army enemies. This is primarily due to the fact the enemy's are so balanced. Mages will make you urinate yourself with pure fear, whereas archers will kill you with ease if left unchecked.



Combat in Dragon Age isn't about conquering that one, giant, insurmountable foe, because that isn't what the Blight represents. Grey Wardens are the best of the best. Very few, if any, could conceivable possess the martial might to overcome them. Look at the way Duncan was felled. The Hurlock Alpha that dealt the final blow wasn't the one that doomed him, nor was the final Ogre he felled. Instead, it was the constant swarm, overwhelming him. Dragon Age combat involves a lot of tactics in order to function. I, personally, love the feel of it. You're an elite group of warriors: Morrigan is a Witch of the Wilds, one of a number of maleficarum feared throughout the entirety of Ferelden. I'm not certain as to how much you looked into with Leliana's backstory, but she certainly has no shortage of martial might. It would make sense for your entire party to slaughtered by one really badarse hurlock.



Personally, I enjoyed the Back Alley fights because they were extremely difficult, and satisfying to complete. I played on normal, so it only took me a couple of tries to complete them, especially considering I had a few more levels than you do, as well as another mage in my party. I can see where you're coming from, however. I'm not going to lie to you, the game does have many of those moments in it. The "A Paragon of her Kind" quest in particular led me to such a feeling of distaste, I skipped an entire zone. It was the *only* one in the whole bloody game I skipped, too, I'm quite a completionist (I do have terrible spelling, though).



If it makes you feel better, though, you will have those "Ogre at the top of the tower" fights again. In fact, every treaty quests nets you one. Furthermore, the Denerim Back Alleys are infamous for a reason. They're likely the most universally dislike portion of them game (though I didn't mind them much, most people do).



Anyway, giving yourself two archers is setting yourself up for a difficult time, especially given the fact that you *will* be primarily fighting large numbers of weaker enemies. Archery has the least number of AoE attacks (one), so you're going to have a tough road ahead of you. But hey, difficulty makes things fun, ne?



Oh, and get used to Alistair taking a dirt nap. In my playthrough, he spent so much time collecting gravel I confused him for Shale.

[BanditGR]

AoE and CC are kings in this game, because of the situations you describe (overwhelming number of opponents). Since you have Morrigan in your party, get Sleep, Cone of Cold and Blizzard as soon as possible (and perhaps force field for some cheesy play). These spells alone are enough to win you the back alley fights, with whatever other group combination.



Level 9 is pretty low for Denerim, by the way (it's supposed to be a level 10+ hub). Hit the Circle tower and finish it (the fade bonuses have a significant impact), finish any DLC (for the gear) and as suggested earlier, ditch Leliana, if you are an archer/ranger yourself. You do not need 2x archers in your party, in fact the game difficulty (as you will find out sooner or later) goes down, as the number of mages in your party increases

[Messor8914]

I find having more than 2 mages in the party make the game too easy. I usually make great tanks and made everyone else a DPS or healer. Shale though makes the game easy since heck it has more hit points than i do. The trick i find to fighting these groups of enemies is like World of Warcraft send the tank in get their attention heal the tank and everyone else and let the DPS burn the groups numbers down. Works every time

[felix4200]

Funny how no one answers the real issue, the generic fights and the sheer amount of them.



It is indeed tiresome and it does not go away. Especially Deeproads, Denerim and Haven are bad. Make sure you skip the bloodmage-nest quest in Denerim it is possibly the worst place during the entire game.



Consider getting the dalish and the magic circle first, when you get high enough you should be able to rush through the easy battles. Consider lowering difficulty level for the generic fights, to ease progress.

[TastyLaksa]

Denerim filled me with fear whenever i fast travelled. I would have gone to the pearl a lot more *wink *wink if it didn't mean i had a high chance of not making it to the goods everytime.

[Love-Buzz]

felix4200 wrote...

Funny how no one answers the real issue, the generic fights and the sheer amount of them.

It is indeed tiresome and it does not go away. Especially Deeproads, Denerim and Haven are bad. Make sure you skip the bloodmage-nest quest in Denerim it is possibly the worst place during the entire game.

Consider getting the dalish and the magic circle first, when you get high enough you should be able to rush through the easy battles. Consider lowering difficulty level for the generic fights, to ease progress.

I guess you didn't read all the replies.  XD
And from the sound of it, I'd say he's already done the mage nest.

[BanditGR]

felix4200 wrote...

Funny how no one answers the real issue, the generic fights and the sheer amount of them.

It is indeed tiresome and it does not go away. Especially Deeproads, Denerim and Haven are bad. Make sure you skip the bloodmage-nest quest in Denerim it is possibly the worst place during the entire game.

You mean the place you can clear everything (but the last room), purely by using Blizzard/Tempest/SoTC without even having to enter the ambush rooms at all ?  The real issue, has been addressed in the replies. A properly specced mage can control the battlefield ENTIRELY, thus diminishing the overwhelming factor of sheer opponent number. More than one mage, is even better. It's sad how one class can make that much of a difference (and you kind have to use at least one, unless you want to play the true Nightmare mode ), but there you have it.

[Romeo Longsword]

The first time through I had such a hard time as well, but the second time, on Nightmare, after about level 10, it was quite easy.

[felix4200]

While the OP asks whether the encounters will continue the same
way, many people have just posted learn to play or similar things, or
ways to counter the specific encounter OP used as an example.

BanditGR wrote...

felix4200 wrote...

Funny how no one answers the real issue, the generic fights and the sheer amount of them.

It is indeed tiresome and it does not go away. Especially Deeproads, Denerim and Haven are bad. Make sure you skip the bloodmage-nest quest in Denerim it is possibly the worst place during the entire game.

You mean the place you can clear everything (but the last room), purely by using Blizzard/Tempest/SoTC without even having to enter the ambush rooms at all ?  The real issue, has been addressed in the replies. A properly specced mage can control the battlefield ENTIRELY, thus diminishing the overwhelming factor of sheer opponent number. More than one mage, is even better. It's sad how one class can make that much of a difference (and you kind have to use at least one, unless you want to play the true Nightmare mode ), but there you have it.

Im not saying it is not easily doable, but its tedious. If that entire sidequest had consisted of only the very last room, my gaming experience would not have lessened at all. The fact that there are one group in every room and hallway, and there are maybe 20 rooms, and every fight is more or less alike is tiresome, and could make some people stop playing the game. If we want grinding after all, plenty of games offer that. Haven is similar, dragging out to 10 or 20 fights, what should have been done in 5.

Modifié par felix4200, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:45 .

[12monkeys]

guys, thanks for all your replies. do appreciate them.

i've lurked in this forum, and i've read how playing a mage can make this game easier. however, that does not exactly answer the issue for me. this is a role-playing game, right? and i want to play a ranger, and enjoy playing him in the process. as much as playing a mage can make my playtime easier, i love playing my ranger. when i put in the disc and select what char to play, it is the ranger class. though it does not mean i am not going to play other classes as well. in fact, i play a mage too, but he is only lvl 3 i think. it is because rangers (or druids) or archer-type chars are the ones i love to play. 

that is why i rely on my other companions to fill in the gaps left by my char. i do not have a warrior? then i let alistair tank for me. i am not a caster? so i let morrigan do that dirty work for me. as for leliana, i let her archer abilities and bard songs help my party. to me, that is how a party of adventurers should accomplish. they work together as a team to cover up for each other's ass*s. but right now, they are not cutting it. take for example, morrigan. i do have cone of cold and heal for her, which is okay, i guess. coc freezes enemies, but there are others swarming at my party that they are easily overwhelmed. sometimes i just lasso my entire crew by pressing "=" or toggling the full party button and just focus fire on the one enemy at a time. works sometimes; better than letting them pound on one enemy each while they are getting clobbered from all directions, and watch who goes down first.

for me, the real issue is not the difficulty of the game; it is that i have to fight too many enemies too many times. it's getting to be repetitive and boring and takes away the focus on the story for me. that quest in denerim i mentioned where i fought mage after mage after mage is in a deserted building (forgot the name of that quest). i think it was given by the templars. reminds me of that fight in an abandoned building as well in the temple district in baldur's gate. if you've fought that group, which i assume you all have since baldur's gate ii is so often mentioned if we talk rpg's, you first fight a group of monsters on the first floor. after dispatching of them, you go to the second floor and duke it out with a nasty group of fighters and mages. and that's it. ( and by the way, you then get a unique katana for your efforts, among other goodies, as a reward for your effort.) in this particular deserted building in denerim (it is in denerim as far as i can recall), my party fought group after group after group consisting of archers, mages, hounds, warriors, etc. in a fight made doubly difficult because my rogue/ranger wasn't able to detect traps, even though i think he should've.

after dispatching of several groups, i went into stealth, opened a door and lo and behold, there was a big group of mages again, and warriors, and archers and...i stopped, saved my game and exited. after that experience in the dark alley, and this? it was just too much.

felix is right: it's the sheer repetition of fighting swarms or hordes of enemies that's taking away the fun for me.  

[Loc'n'lol]

If you don't want to be a mage (fine by me), you should craft yourself a bunch of grenades and find the receipes for all 5 grenade types ASAP. Give 1 point in poison making to all characters in your party and get yourself 1 companion who will take more than one point, to crat the grenades.

Then, to deal with most of the annoying 'overwhelming odds' situations, you just retreat behind a corner, wait for the enemy to cluster**** in a tight space, and throw a bunch of grenades at them. KABOOM.

then there are a couple of fights, like that darkspawn roadblock with elves, where you have absolutely not a chance to win if you don't have any of the OP spells, because there is no cover at all and you are facing absolutely impossible odds. (Yes, seriously Bioware, dropping me in the middle of a field where 20 darkspawn archers can turn my party into pincushions while I can't retaliate is not fun)

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:23 .

[BanditGR]

_Loc_N_lol_ pretty much nailed it. Your predicament is clear. No one here is suggesting rerolling to a mage and while this is without a doubt a role-playing game, there are simply certain abilities and spells that are particularly effective, while others add more flavor than substance. With a good portion of the encounters specifically designed to incapacitate and overwhelm your party, the game itself (at one point or another), basically "forces" you to think really hard where to spend those attribute/skill/talent points when leveling up. That's just the way it is. You can argue that it is bad design (they are several threads debating this already) but imo, at the end of the day, it's just a pointless argument, since you can always reload or leave an area and come back at a higher level, when you will have advanced enough, not to get squished. As for the rest, you can do things the "cheesy" way or the hard and "intended" way, by using more resources (potions, grenades, traps etc).

Modifié par BanditGR, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:32 .

[Adria Teksuni]

Lev 9 is a bit low for the back alleys...try leveling up a bit and coming back, changing your difficulty for those battles, or start over and look up builds for your NPCs.



Yes, Threaten/Taunt are EXTREMELY useful on your tanks.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I'd like a smaller number of more dangerous enemies myself.

[Chragen]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

If you don't want to be a mage (fine by me), you should craft yourself a bunch of grenades and find the receipes for all 5 grenade types ASAP. Give 1 point in poison making to all characters in your party and get yourself 1 companion who will take more than one point, to crat the grenades.

Then, to deal with most of the annoying 'overwhelming odds' situations, you just retreat behind a corner, wait for the enemy to cluster**** in a tight space, and throw a bunch of grenades at them. KABOOM.

then there are a couple of fights, like that darkspawn roadblock with elves, where you have absolutely not a chance to win if you don't have any of the OP spells, because there is no cover at all and you are facing absolutely impossible odds. (Yes, seriously Bioware, dropping me in the middle of a field where 20 darkspawn archers can turn my party into pincushions while I can't retaliate is not fun)

It's not all that difficult to survive that you know if you got decent gear on your tank and a good healer ^^ You'd be surprised just how beating Alistair can take when you got 42 armor and 100+ defense combined with a constant stream of healing.
If you got that and good damage to take down the enemies one by one then there is a single fight in the game  you can't beat.

[12monkeys]

@ lovebuzz: what's mage nest? all i can recall is that from redcliffe  jowan did the ritual, isolde sacrificed herself, morrigan entered the fade and defeated the demon, and we cured connor, but not the arl yet. that's why we had to go to denerim to look for that brother something...then i got a bunch of quests from the chantry board and that was it.

[interesting03]

If you could get through NWN2, you should be able to get through Dragon Age. Heh, that game was such a grind. The Orc caves would have to be one of the biggest grinds I've had to endure.



If the number of enemies is bothering you, you could use console commands to bring your entire party along with you, that way you've got 8+ allies against the hoards, of course it also makes it ridiculously easy. Also Denerim's level minimum is about 8-9 or 10-11(i think), so those mobs would be hitting rather hard and would be a pain to wade through at your level.

[12monkeys]

@ loc: thanks for the tip. i did consider grenades, but i think the recipes are expensive. i was saving money so i can buy the ranger book. gotta try those sometime.

i do consider other tactics as well, but if the battle you just described of 20 archers turning you into a "pincushion" gets to be repeated multiple times, that's what i do not want to go thru over and over again.

referring to motb again, a loading tip in the game says that some side quests in the game are extremely difficult, which i found out to be quiet true. the fight in an abandoned house (beginning to see a pattern here?) in rashemen where you go up against several mages takes a lot of strategy as well. they cast several deadly spells which can wipe your party in a few rounds. but after fighting them, it's done. the fight against several tough mercenaries all at once in the plane near the port is a difficult one as well, but after disposing of them, it is done.  and what's more, i have the same number of party members as in dao, which is 4, as in motb, or nwn2, for that matter. but why is it that i do not feel spent and tired after each battle as i do now? 

as for cheesy tactics, well, nice and good. but if there's no variety in the game, i do not think it will live up to its potential.  i had a totemic druid in baldur's gate once; he held his own in the party. played also a bard using darts, it was a lot of fun. the sheer variety of builds capable of finishing the game, helped by their npc partymates of course, in bg made that adventure enjoyable for me. not on relying on cheesy, cookie-cutter builds to mow down wave after wave of monsters.