164 réponses à ce sujet

[SimonTheFrog]

I still don't see a good reason for BW to make the green ending available with high EMS only.

[DJBare]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I still don't see a good reason for BW to make the green ending available with high EMS only.

Because with high EMS comes scientists and engineers, you are building the reapers solution for them.

[SimonTheFrog]

Yes, so there is a threshhold beneath which the green ending wouldn't work because the crucible is not capable enough?

[DJBare]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Yes, so there is a threshhold beneath which the green ending wouldn't work because the crucible is not capable enough?

The solution does not appear if you are below the threshhold, it's not obtainable to work or not.

[shadowreflexion]

DJBare wrote...

I've posted about this in other topics but felt it needed a topic of it's own because of the confusion surrounding the three options presented by the catalyst.

Disclaimer: I am not defending the ending to this game, in fact my statement just shows how poorly thought out the ending is.

Gamers in general expect some kind of reward for their efforts, the ultimate reward is normally being presented at the end of the game.
I have seen many posts where the player has equated the three options as some kind of reward for high EMS, I also thought the same when I first played, this goes back to players expecting the ultimate reward at the end of the game.
On reflection this is not the case, let me attempt to dissect and explain.

First off, lets get rid of the notion that the catalyst present all three option, this is an error, and here is why.

Destroy is presented by the races who aided in the construction of the crucible.
Control is presented by TIM
Which leaves, yes you guessed it, Synthesis presented by the catalyst

Note the dialogue from the catalyst for each option.

Destroy: All Synthetic life will be destroyed, even you are part synthetic.
Control: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Synthesis: What? nothing bad to say about synthesis?

The catalyst is attempting to bias your decision making, and that bias points toward synthesis, the reapers ultimate goal, ascension.

What has all this got to do with rewards?, I'm glad you asked, here is part of the reason the ending is poorly thought out.

The EMS equates to the survival of earth and inhabitants during the use of the crucible with "destroy", that is the ultimate reward, the higher your EMS the less chance earth is destroyed when using the destroy option.
The poorly thought out part is because as we have seen, most players equate the three options as a reward when in fact only destroy is the ultimate reward for high EMS, which is confusing because you can get the destroy option with low EMS, accept you cannot save earth with low EMS, saving the earth and inhabitants IS your ultimate reward.

It's getting hard to respond to your posts. Here's my take on it.....

As far as the reward scenario, the EMS should have been used solely to present the gamer with a tactical advantage over the enemy as a whole. Not saving earth but saving yourself. When we gathered our war assets, we find that no matter how much of a readiness rating we have attained, half of our supporters still never make it to the final push. That isn't because our EMS is low, that's because ME3 really gives up by the time we start earth. The game forcibly feeds the player the illusion that a high EMS is important for all around success but it isn't. It's only there to rob the player of hope for earth. 

When it comes down to the choices that the Catalyst presents, they're all wrong IMO. No one is greater than the other. They all contradict common sense reasoning. In destroy, if it's presented by the races who worked on the Crucible, then why would the Geth adhere to being destroyed when they have finally attained true intelligence?
Control is presented but by that time, we've already lost everything within ourselves so how can we be rational?
Then we have merging of two entirely different entities. Which still could not be considered the apex of evolution but just a step forward. Not perfection, more likely gentrification. I use that because as organics, the synthetics can only add to what we are in order to assimilate their twisted vision of perfect organics.

I don't see any type of reward in this game. Honestly, I feel that if a game that isn't chess has to be analyzed then it's not a game anymore. We should not have to analyze a video game when all have the most simplistic formula. Understand, play, and finish. The reward is a fulfilling completion, not an analytical mess.

One of the things I'm waiting for an answer to are the actions that take place in Shepard's mind when the choices are being presented. For a person who has never encountered this AI before, Shep sees what he/she has to do without possibly knowing how in the first place. Control, I have to grab the two post and allow myself to be fried by electricity because I witnessed the IM doing that in my mind. Destroy, I have to shoot a power source because that's what I saw Anderson doing in my mind. The only thing that wasn't shown was synthesis. Which is more obviously what Mac and Hudson meant to be the better choice. In short, Shep should have been clueless with how to do any of the options except synthesis which was explained to him/her how to accomplish that. But everything is a reward, from cards, chess, checkers, etc. The final result is Casey and Walters made a terrible decision for the sake of an "cerebral" ending. The reality is that the three choices aren't "Shakespearean" in nature, they're just maddening, misguided, and a paradox of confusion. Short word....messy.

[Foxcat]

I think this is a very interesting topic. I like the OP's hypothesis which does a good job explaining the catalyst sequence at the end in an alternative to IT. I think it makes sense for a couple reasons:
--1) It explains why the reapers don't just pew pew the crucible construction project
--2) It explains why they bring the citadel to earth and allow the crucible to dock with it
--3) It explains why the crucible plans are allowed to exist/continue to exist cycle to cycle along with the origin of them (the reapers)
--4) And lastly is logically consistent with itself, as a theory in terms of why synthesis requires highest EMS etc...

[DJBare]

shadowreflexion wrote...
When it comes down to the choices that the Catalyst presents, they're all wrong IMO. No one is greater than the other. They all contradict common sense reasoning. In destroy, if it's presented by the races who worked on the Crucible, then why would the Geth adhere to being destroyed when they have finally attained true intelligence?
Control is presented but by that time, we've already lost everything within ourselves so how can we be rational?
Then we have merging of two entirely different entities. Which still could not be considered the apex of evolution but just a step forward. Not perfection, more likely gentrification. I use that because as organics, the synthetics can only add to what we are in order to assimilate their twisted vision of perfect organics.

My appologies for clipping your post, all the option are wrong if you take the catalyst word at face value, but taking his word at face value contradicts Shepard taking a breath after the destroy option.

Catalyst: You can destroy all synthetics if you want, even you are part synthetic.

[Xellith]

DJBare wrote...

saving the earth and inhabitants IS your ultimate reward.

Every shep is different. I know a few renegades who would only want to stop the reapers so that they themselves arnt killed.  Everyone else is just used and thrown away.  Taking back earth for some place to retire - not because of some feeling of responsibility.  This is just one reason why the 1 ending we got is terrible.  I woulda totally loved to tell the catalyst to go screw himself and then walked away while the galaxy burned.. /sigh

Modifié par Xellith, 23 avril 2012 - 10:57 .

[shadowreflexion]

DJBare wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...
When it comes down to the choices that the Catalyst presents, they're all wrong IMO. No one is greater than the other. They all contradict common sense reasoning. In destroy, if it's presented by the races who worked on the Crucible, then why would the Geth adhere to being destroyed when they have finally attained true intelligence?
Control is presented but by that time, we've already lost everything within ourselves so how can we be rational?
Then we have merging of two entirely different entities. Which still could not be considered the apex of evolution but just a step forward. Not perfection, more likely gentrification. I use that because as organics, the synthetics can only add to what we are in order to assimilate their twisted vision of perfect organics.

My appologies for clipping your post, all the option are wrong if you take the catalyst word at face value, but taking his word at face value contradicts Shepard taking a breath after the destroy option.

Catalyst: You can destroy all synthetics if you want, even you are part synthetic.

True. The choice to place these absolutes at the end and to force ultimatums on the player resulted in an abated mess.

[DJBare]

Xellith wrote...

DJBare wrote...
saving the earth and inhabitants IS your ultimate reward.

Nope.  Every shep is different. I know a few renegades who would only want to stop the reapers so that they themselves arnt killed.  Everyone else is just used and thrown away.  Taking back earth for some place to retire - not because of some feeling of responsibility.  This is just one reason why the 1 ending we got is terrible.

Renegade Shepards in this story are out soley for "humanity"; and it's still not the point of my thread, this is about what people percieve as a reward, whether they agree with the reward or not.

[Surprise Guest]

How does EMS prove that organics are capable/worthy of something? Through the whole series we're being constantly bombarded with petty wars and conflicts that would prove otherwise. A "lets see if they can build this weapon" test seems a little odd for some race that decided their assumptions would dictate the nature of existence. Actually who knows those catalyst people were odd people indeed.

I still don't understand how synthesis has anything to do with evolution. If you chose synthesis all life would simply be synthesised, not evolved. Evolution by its very nature doesn't happen through magical cannons. And what sort of shepard decides he that he should change the very nature of existence of all life? Assimilation is lame and thematically so so wrong.

Oh right back to rewards. I suppose earth was the reward considering the marketing of the game. It doesn't feel like a reward however, as you wouldn't know that earth could have been destroyed unless you did a bad playthrough. And seeing how similar the endings seem only makes it even worse.

I was hoping for the reward to be an ending that was either interesting or emotional...

Modifié par Surprise Guest, 23 avril 2012 - 11:07 .

[nitefyre410]

They're all wrong and I reject them all... I would rather let the Reapers win and pave the way for the next group of civilizations.

The take the thinking of Thesis, Anti- Thesis and Synthesis and distort it and misrepresent it in a facepalm worthy fashions.

there is nothing GOOD about any of the options because they all involve Shepard agree with the Catalyst and its philosophy of Synthetics and Organics always hating each others.

In short the little brat and his BS logic can go to hell. I'll die fighting. 

Hell EDI  even reprograms herself to  die rather than submit. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 23 avril 2012 - 11:04 .

[DJBare]

Surprise Guest wrote...

How does EMS prove that organics are capable/worthy of something? Through the whole series we're being constantly bombarded with petty wars and conflicts that would prove otherwise. A "lets see if they can build this weapon" test seems a little odd for some race that decided their assumptions would dictate the nature of existence. Actually who knows those catalyst people were odd people indeed.

Because it's from a technological standpoint not a millitary one, the reapers only want the best brains if you like, completing the crucible to it's max(synthesis option added) proves to the reapers you are worthy for the "ultimate" evolution, their idea of ultimate evolution that is.

[SimonTheFrog]

Makes you wonder why the Reapers didn't build the crucible themselves after they reaped the protheans for example.

Because they were always waiting all these cycles specifically for Sheps DNA?

[DJBare]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Makes you wonder why the Reapers didn't build the crucible themselves after they reaped the protheans for example.

Because they were always waiting all these cycles specifically for Sheps DNA?

This is going to get off track again, note that Shepard has to "voluntarily" choose to merge, and I do believe the reapers did start the crucible, it's their test to find the best, you first have to accept the reapers truly believe in their cause whether you agree with them or not.

[Noelemahc]

This is a most interesting theory. Overlooking Shepard's interpretation of events, you could argue that the colours - Red, Blue, Green - represent the stepping stones in mental and/or moral evolution.

TIM considers everyone who argues for destroying the Reapers short-sighted, unsavvy... limited. He argues that controlling them is benefactory as it will let us ascend (even if it's the equivalent of trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps by way of attaching rockets to them).

Saren and the Catalyst argue that synthesis is the ultimate form of evolution, the unity of organic and synthetic, from their point of view, should be everyone's ultimate aspiration. It certainly is for the geth - they revel in their Reaperized intelligence which, if you pull that dialogue line out of Legion and Shala'Raan, becomes practically picture-perfect organic if you let them gain it. (Shepard, however, can only use to to swiftly browbeat Legion into admitting the geth are growing more dangerous to organics, or to browbeat Shala'Raan for being specieist).

The trick of the light here is that it's still a subjective point of view. Sure, the Reapers and the Catalyst view themselves as infallible and perfect and Synthesis brings us closer to them... but it's THEIR opinion. And since we even have that option, it's a theory that nobody has, as yet, tested in practice. P'raps they will come back in a dozen years or so to wipe us out AGAIN because they didn't like the results.

[Surprise Guest]

DJBare wrote...

Surprise Guest wrote...

How does EMS prove that organics are capable/worthy of something? Through the whole series we're being constantly bombarded with petty wars and conflicts that would prove otherwise. A "lets see if they can build this weapon" test seems a little odd for some race that decided their assumptions would dictate the nature of existence. Actually who knows those catalyst people were odd people indeed.

Because it's from a technological standpoint not a millitary one, the reapers only want the best brains if you like, completing the crucible to it's max(synthesis option added) proves to the reapers you are worthy for the "ultimate" evolution, their idea of ultimate evolution that is.

Technology and evolution aren't the same thing however, the Krogan are a prime example of that. The catalyst peoples deciding technical prowess was an indicator of how "evolved" a species was clearly never watched 2001. It's about the mind and what's within yo.

Edit: Also the quarian. While they were awsome at technology they were hardly what you'd consider evolved. They were so silly.

Modifié par Surprise Guest, 23 avril 2012 - 11:29 .

[DJBare]

Surprise Guest wrote...

Technology and evolution aren't the same thing however, the Krogan are a prime example of that. The catalyst peoples deciding technical prowess was an indicator of how "evolved" a species was clearly never watched 2001. It's about the mind and what's within yo.

Edit: Also the quarian. While they were awsome at technology they were hardly what you'd consider evolved. They were so silly.

They are not after krogans, it's the human genetic diversity that interests the reapers, I cannot remember the exact phrase by Mordin, but he tells you humans are unique in their genetic diversity.

Modifié par DJBare, 23 avril 2012 - 11:35 .

[Surprise Guest]

DJBare wrote...

Surprise Guest wrote...

Technology and evolution aren't the same thing however, the Krogan are a prime example of that. The catalyst peoples deciding technical prowess was an indicator of how "evolved" a species was clearly never watched 2001. It's about the mind and what's within yo.

Edit: Also the quarian. While they were awsome at technology they were hardly what you'd consider evolved. They were so silly.

They are not after krogans, it's the human genetic diversity that interests the reapers, I cannot remember the exact phrase by Mordin, but he tells you humans are unique in their genetic diversity.

Isn't that part of the dark energy concept that was completely scrapped because they really respect artistic vision?

Edit: Oh and the races are just examples of the divide between evolution and technology, which even we humans today are poor examples of.

Modifié par Surprise Guest, 23 avril 2012 - 11:42 .

[Phantom818]

I felt this way when I first played through the ending as well. I found the star child to be highly untrustworthy and didn't necessarily want a "refuse and fight it out" option, because I felt that the destroy option was a refusal enough. Prior to reading anything about EMS requirements, I came into the situation with a high enough EMS that I got the "highest" destroy ending as well (of course due to completing everything possible). If that "breath" at the end is, in fact, Shepard, then you obviously DIDN'T die, even though star kid said the synthetic part of you would die. Also, EDI apparently lives as well with this ending...Interesting.  The risk of the star child being wrong (and the Reapers possibly coming back anyway) had me staying far away from the control option.  Synthesis, while it seems to be something the Reapers wanted, and something not entirely awful in itself, was also not the mission I set out to accomplish and not something I was willing to give to someone(/thing?) I just met.

The quotes on the previous page of the thread, all the Saren talk from Mass Effect 1 (ultimately getting him to choose the "destroy" option if he shoots himself...since it seems he started out "his business" from a "control" standpoint, but the indoctrination became too strong and he began to see the Reapers side of things and preach about a sort of "synthesis" option ["The Reapers are too powerful...only hope of survival is to join with them]). Plus, the Reapers harvesting a species each "cycle" speaks to their desire to achieve that "ascension."

Modifié par Phantom818, 23 avril 2012 - 11:52 .

[DJBare]

Surprise Guest wrote...

Isn't that part of the dark energy concept that was completely scrapped because they really respect artistic vision?

Edit: Oh and the races are just examples of the divide between evolution and technology, which even we humans today are poor examples of.

At this point I have to jump on the speculation bandwagon, only human genetic diversity has the blueprint to complete synthesis, the reapers ultimate goal says they want to merge organic and synthetic, and they certainly do with synthesis, the very fact that plants are merged shows this, this was not just sentient life, it was everything organic.

[Noelemahc]

If that "breath" at the end is, in fact, Shepard, then you obviously DIDN'T die, even though star kid said the synthetic part of you would die. Also, EDI apparently lives as well with this ending...Interesting.

EDI tells you your vital organs are still mostly meat if you talk to her after Sur'Kesh and discuss transhumanism. Shepard could theoretically survive for some time with his synth parts turned to slag, although how long before infection of his/her wounds would be exacerbated by the useless metal and plastic and carbon and wiring... no telling. I'm thinking cybernetically-worsened gangrene is a horrible way to die. Perhaps Shepard hallucinated EVERYTHING of the Citadel/Crucible while he/she was lying in the rubble after being shot by Harbinger? And bleeds out quietly while nobody notices?

Isn't that part of the dark energy concept that was completely scrapped because they really respect artistic vision?

Technically, dark energy is still in the game, even if as just an offhand mention by the Starchild when describing how the Crucible works.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 23 avril 2012 - 11:52 .

[Phantom818]

Noelemahc wrote...

If that "breath" at the end is, in fact, Shepard, then you obviously DIDN'T die, even though star kid said the synthetic part of you would die. Also, EDI apparently lives as well with this ending...Interesting.

EDI tells you your vital organs are still mostly meat if you talk to her after Sur'Kesh and discuss transhumanism. Shepard could theoretically survive for some time with his synth parts turned to slag, although how long before infection of his/her wounds would be exacerbated by the useless metal and plastic and carbon and wiring... no telling. I'm thinking cybernetically-worsened gangrene is a horrible way to die. Perhaps Shepard hallucinated EVERYTHING of the Citadel/Crucible while he/she was lying in the rubble after being shot by Harbinger? And bleeds out quietly while nobody notices?

I'm guessing that's part of what the extended cut is for....haha.  I enjoy the "theory" guessing game, though.  Indoctrination theory is a fun way to look at the ending as well (like the hallucination you mentioned), though not necessarily the "only way" or "right way" to look at it.  And if one does think it's a hallucination, then that could lend even more credence to the fact that the star kid was lying.  I also didn't pay much mind to the "red" and "blue" associations at the end until a few people mentioned it...could possibly be artistic intention to "switch up" the paragon and renegade colors when maybe whoever set the colors up feels a paragon could be more easily influenced than a renegade in that case.  Not saying that's how I thought of the color usage - like I said I didn't give much thought - but, nevertheless, one possibility if it was something done intentionally and not something people have just been "reading too much into."

Modifié par Phantom818, 23 avril 2012 - 11:59 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Yeah it's fun as a mental game.

It doesn't make the ending in any way more interesting or plausible, though.

[MattFini]

Good read, folks. Really interesting stuff.