164 réponses à ce sujet

[Noelemahc]

Unfortunately, the way the game looks now, it feels like less about "intentionally" or "reading too much", because there isn't enough depth for either. It's grimdark whichever way you want to spin it, unless clarifications are introduced, and those better be some extensive clarifications!

[DJBare]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Yeah it's fun as a mental game.

It doesn't make the ending in any way more interesting or plausible, though.

No, it just shows the delivery was incredibly bad, and to pour salt into the wound you get the breath ending, as I said somewhere else, even discounting IT, this is an unfinished game.

[Phantom818]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Yeah it's fun as a mental game.

It doesn't make the ending in any way more interesting or plausible, though.

Very true.  Theorizing about the ending isn't bad at all, but I still didn't enjoy the way it happened, that's for sure [and as the post above and quote below feel, it wasn't presented well enough to a point where there was enough depth to it outside of what the community has come up with on its own].  So, like you said, I guess we just work with what we've got.  Plus, obviously, just because you dislike/despise/hate the ending doesn't necessarily mean you hated the game as a whole either.  I'm hoping BioWare has understood that in their attempts to create an extension with further clarification.

Noelemahc wrote...

Unfortunately, the way the game looks now, it feels like less about "intentionally" or "reading too much", because there isn't enough depth for either. It's grimdark whichever way you want to spin it, unless clarifications are introduced, and those better be some extensive clarifications!

Agreed.  Although I'll try and be sure to prepare myself in the case not all the important questions are answered.  I'm not necessarily sure what I want.  I know sometimes show series or even game series will end with some deal of mystery, many times one predominant theory arises as well.  I guess I can understand if BioWare doesn't want to "show its hand completly" and lay out "here's exactly what happened and you can't theorize anything or have your own thoughts or opinions about it, because this is how it ends."  However, that, of course, would make things a lot easier and ease at least a little bit of community "anger," if done right.  Like you said, some depth would definitely be appreciated.

Modifié par Phantom818, 23 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[Silpheed58]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Ready for some speculation?, we inadvertently build it for them with high EMS, we are doing their work for them, synthesis would be the most complex of the options, the more scientists and engineers we throw at the crucible the greater the chance it gets built, remember, we don't know what the crucible does or how it functions(bit silly if you ask me, but that's the story)

Do you think it's more of a test, to have organics that are worthy/capable of synthesis?  Or in part because having it created by the organics will provide an unpredictable element that the Catalyst couldn't properly account for?

Gonna sound juvenile, but I think the following is a decent reasoning.

Lower EMS = less unity, smaller army, weak mind/will, and ultimately no display of 'respectable' force.

Lower EMS = The current generation of organics are unworthy of Synthesis with the synthetics.

That doesn't sound juvenile at all!

I would go with the test theory, all you have to do is go back to ME2 and listen to Harbinger speak on other races.  All he does is evaluate their worth.  

[Mylia Stenetch]

d-boy15 wrote...

synthasis is not a reaper goal, it a new solution of that vent kid.

doesn't make me want to choose it anyway.

Have you met Soverign and Saren from ME1? I just finished a playthough of it, and that was Saren's goal to save the races.

[Silpheed58]

Destroy is really the only ending that feels like there is some fraction of a reward of a reward, but this is due to the open ended nature of the finale. No one likes destroy because what you lose is very staggering to the player on a personal level. The entire ending is you can not keep something and lose nothing. There is no keep everything option.

And I do not include synthesis in that analysis because it is not a viable ending in my opinion. I hate Reapers.

[Little Princess Peach]

DJBare wrote...

TX-Toast wrote...

Why is high EMS needed for the synthesis option? I can't figure how EMS determine what choices the catalyst shows you.

Because with high EMS you are a greater threat, so the catalyst presents what appears to be a garden of eden choice.

Stop me if I am wrong but don't we get the Garden of Edan thing in every choice? not just the green ending unless each ending has a diffrent planet

[deciett]

I just don't see how people think synthesis was the worst ending. Maybe I was exalting a bit at the end, but in my paragon playthrough this was my train of thought: I just shot the illusive man for proposing that we control the reapers, because you don't control the reapers. Control is out the window. Destroy would wipe the geth off the face of the earth, possibly EDI too. Not an option. Synthesis, as it is presented in the game, is forcing a change on everyone and it is also exactly what Saren wanted, but it's not the way Saren was trying to get it. Saren wanted to be slaves to the reapers, to try and prove to be useful to them so that organics would be uplifted. By merging organics and synthetics with the synthesis ending you are achieving something different, both conceptually and functionally. You see how bastardized the fusions of organic and synthetic the reapers create are. The synthesized people from the synthesis ending are far from that.

I suppose I would have gone with destroy if the damn starbrat didn't straight up tell me that all AI would die, but with that on the table synthesis was my only option.

[nitefyre410]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

synthasis is not a reaper goal, it a new solution of that vent kid.

doesn't make me want to choose it anyway.

Have you met Soverign and Saren from ME1? I just finished a playthough of it, and that was Saren's goal to save the races.

 

We achieve true synthesis  on Rannoch  when you make peace between the Geth and Quarains.   The Synthesis ending is a  complete misrepersenting  of this... 

http://en.wikipedia....esis,_synthesis 

[macrocarl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Ready for some speculation?, we inadvertently build it for them with high EMS, we are doing their work for them, synthesis would be the most complex of the options, the more scientists and engineers we throw at the crucible the greater the chance it gets built, remember, we don't know what the crucible does or how it functions(bit silly if you ask me, but that's the story)

Do you think it's more of a test, to have organics that are worthy/capable of synthesis?  Or in part because having it created by the organics will provide an unpredictable element that the Catalyst couldn't properly account for?

Gonna sound juvenile, but I think the following is a decent reasoning.

Lower EMS = less unity, smaller army, weak mind/will, and ultimately no display of 'respectable' force.

Lower EMS = The current generation of organics are unworthy of Synthesis with the synthetics.

That doesn't sound juvenile at all!

That's along the lines of what I was thinking too. I mean, I destroyed them any way since my Shep was there to destroy the Reapers and the Kid came off as super untrustworthy.

[DJBare]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...
Stop me if I am wrong but don't we get the Garden of Edan thing in every choice? not just the green ending unless each ending has a diffrent planet

"Garden of Eden" refers to the emergence of new life, synthesis is new life, non of the other endings create new life.

[Silpheed58]

deciett wrote...

I just don't see how people think synthesis was the worst ending. Maybe I was exalting a bit at the end, but in my paragon playthrough this was my train of thought: I just shot the illusive man for proposing that we control the reapers, because you don't control the reapers. Control is out the window. Destroy would wipe the geth off the face of the earth, possibly EDI too. Not an option. Synthesis, as it is presented in the game, is forcing a change on everyone and it is also exactly what Saren wanted, but it's not the way Saren was trying to get it. Saren wanted to be slaves to the reapers, to try and prove to be useful to them so that organics would be uplifted. By merging organics and synthetics with the synthesis ending you are achieving something different, both conceptually and functionally. You see how bastardized the fusions of organic and synthetic the reapers create are. The synthesized people from the synthesis ending are far from that.

I suppose I would have gone with destroy if the damn starbrat didn't straight up tell me that all AI would die, but with that on the table synthesis was my only option.

And so you bring about the "pinnacle" of evolution and halt the evolution of all organic and synthetic life.....

[Little Princess Peach]

DJBare wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...
Stop me if I am wrong but don't we get the Garden of Edan thing in every choice? not just the green ending unless each ending has a diffrent planet

"Garden of Eden" refers to the emergence of new life, synthesis is new life, non of the other endings create new life.

Thank you for clearing that up for me ^^
Garden of Edan chouce seems like a reward to me though

[survivor_686]

I agree with OP. Destroy is the option your allies fought for...even the Geth.

Every race sacrificed lives and resources for a future free from the Reapers. The Geth fought for the belief that every being should self-determinate.

Control and Synthesis still leave the Reapers as major players on the galactic stage. Synthesis just makes it possible for the Reapers to "hack" us. Control...well history has shown us that even touching Reaper tech is a bad thing.

And this is coming from a Paragon player.

Modifié par survivor_686, 23 avril 2012 - 12:55 .

[DJBare]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...
Garden of Edan chouce seems like a reward to me though

That's the Reapers plan, accept synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution, no more evolution, stuck for enternity as good looking husks.

[Silasqtx]

 




That's actually what that sequence reminded me.

"Wouldn't you like a cup of synthesis instead?"

But anyway, good read.

Modifié par Silasqtx, 23 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[matthewmi]

I don't know if the end is a test by the catalyst or not, but there is only one option that works based off the information and experiences in the series. Throughout the Mass Effect Saga we've had it hammered home that you can't control the reapers, because you are consumed by them, they're too powerful, yet at the end nope not true control them all you want. We've been fighting the reapers who help organics ascend by destroying and reconstituting them into an organic synthetic mishmash. Synthesis seems to be the ultimate gift to the reapers, besides the horrible moral problem of changing organics without consent. If you chose synthesis you have literally made a choice to become what you've been fighting against.

Those two choices have been presented as the bad choice, or what you're fighting against since Mass Effect 1. To have 100+ hours of information chucked out the window in the last seconds of the game doesn't make sense and makes your time spent feel a little like it was all a waste of your time.

Destroy is the only option I'd ever choose regardless of the EC content. This coming from someone who loves the game, and have played it through 4 times now. Destroy fits with the mission from the first game and all of the information we've been given throughout the journey. Yes the Geth might die but it's a sacrifice worth taking, the other two options are the antithesis of what you've been fighting for and seem like you basically surrender to the reapers.

I agree with the OP destroy is the only true reward ending.

[Lenseflare]

Noelemahc wrote...

EDI tells you your vital organs are still mostly meat if you talk to her after Sur'Kesh and discuss transhumanism. Shepard could theoretically survive for some time with his synth parts turned to slag, although how long before infection of his/her wounds would be exacerbated by the useless metal and plastic and carbon and wiring... no telling. I'm thinking cybernetically-worsened gangrene is a horrible way to die. Perhaps Shepard hallucinated EVERYTHING of the Citadel/Crucible while he/she was lying in the rubble after being shot by Harbinger? And bleeds out quietly while nobody notices?

Actually EDI tells you that you are 100% organic.
The kid tells you that you are partially synthetic.

[Mylia Stenetch]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

synthasis is not a reaper goal, it a new solution of that vent kid.

doesn't make me want to choose it anyway.

Have you met Soverign and Saren from ME1? I just finished a playthough of it, and that was Saren's goal to save the races.

 

We achieve true synthesis  on Rannoch  when you make peace between the Geth and Quarains.   The Synthesis ending is a  complete misrepersenting  of this... 

http://en.wikipedia....esis,_synthesis 

In the game, the mergin of sythetics and organics, which would synthesize them. This has been shown through the first two games with the Reapers. This is what I meant, Rannoch would be another branch of synthesis.

[Noelemahc]

Actually EDI tells you that you are 100% organic.
The kid tells you that you are partially synthetic.

EDI tells you your BRAIN is 100% organic, because Shepard has lingering doubts about whether Cerberus actually brought him back to life or cloned a body and stuck some sort of zombie robot brain inside. Chakwas repeatedly jokes you're "more machine than human" at this point, and so is Adams.

[Silpheed58]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

synthasis is not a reaper goal, it a new solution of that vent kid.

doesn't make me want to choose it anyway.

Have you met Soverign and Saren from ME1? I just finished a playthough of it, and that was Saren's goal to save the races.

 

We achieve true synthesis  on Rannoch  when you make peace between the Geth and Quarains.   The Synthesis ending is a  complete misrepersenting  of this... 

http://en.wikipedia....esis,_synthesis 

In the game, the mergin of sythetics and organics, which would synthesize them. This has been shown through the first two games with the Reapers. This is what I meant, Rannoch would be another branch of synthesis.

Not really, the Geth and Quarian cultres may merge, but they remain seperate as organics and synthetic.  

[humes spork]

I for one am highly skeptical of claims that synthesis what is Reapers "want" and poses their "ultimate victory".

For one thing, Reapers are about control. They -- or whatever led to their construction -- are the source of the mass relays. They bait organic races into the social and technological trap and dead-end path of the relays. They dictate organic life takes on their form and loses its individuality while, at the same time, somehow preserving a species' collective consciousness (that's what can be inferred from ME2 and 3).

Synthesis is posed, and demonstrated on-screen during the ending, to be a mechanism through which the Reapers lose control -- galactic life is synthesized, but maintaining its form, individuality, character and ultimately diversity.

Second, and to what the first is a means, is Reapers seem to be all about maintaining the status quo. They use the relays and the cycle to control and limit organic technological development, and to perpetuate themselves. They don't actively seek a permanent resolution to the question of technological singularity, regardless of outcome. I have my own thoughts on this (hint, it's related to the geth rehabilitating and rebuilding Rannoch and why), but I'll spare them for this post.

By being outside the Reapers' control, the status quo is broken. Yes, the status quo was broken as early as the protheans' rewriting the keepers' controls and sabotaging the Citadel relay, but still well within the purview of the cycle itself. This break of the status quo is irreparable: the relays are destroyed, and all life (and not merely life that had been in contact with galactic civilizations) is synthesized (and outside the Reapers' control). There's even a lingering question of whether synthesized life as exists post-ending can be harvested by the Reapers.

Third, stemming from the second any resolution which would permanently break the cycle would render the Reapers obsolete. Synthesis is the only ending that is not only posited, but also has any logical chance of precluding, the rise of artificial intelligence which however you look at it is the necessary condition for technological singularity. Without the cycle, the Reapers have no purpose for existing (and just in case someone misses it, that is a hint).

In fact, that last sentence is so important to understanding the ending and what's going on here, I'll just leave my post here.

Without the cycle, the Reapers have no purpose for existing.

Modifié par humes spork, 23 avril 2012 - 01:24 .

[Dendio1]

We all expect some cheering at the end of a war. Its been done at the conclusion of countless battles in media and in real life. In the Mass effect 3 endings the only cheering we get is that of the two soldiers as the reapers take off or are destroyed. The soldiers cheer only when the EMS is high enough to prevent the buildings from being destroyed. Both Control and Destroy have these scenarios.

However, Synthesis is peculiar in that the buidings remain intact, but the soldiers do not cheer. The camera does a unique shot of the reapers basking in green light, towering defiantly over the troops. Then the reapers take off, and the soldiers simply stand around submissively.

With endings so similar, the differences the devs chose to emphisize should be taken seriously.
See for yourself

Next to the other *good* endings with soldiers cheering, synthesis strikes a sinister cord.

Synthesis...i dont like the cut of your jib

Modifié par Dendio1, 23 avril 2012 - 01:24 .

[Lenseflare]

Noelemahc wrote...

Actually EDI tells you that you are 100% organic.
The kid tells you that you are partially synthetic.

EDI tells you your BRAIN is 100% organic, because Shepard has lingering doubts about whether Cerberus actually brought him back to life or cloned a body and stuck some sort of zombie robot brain inside. Chakwas repeatedly jokes you're "more machine than human" at this point, and so is Adams.

I had to look that up. And I stand corrected.
I guess I was just looking for a reason to catch "the kid" in a lie.

[DJBare]

deciett wrote...
I suppose I would have gone with destroy if the damn starbrat didn't straight up tell me that all AI would die, but with that on the table synthesis was my only option.

But that would mean you accepted the Catalyst words at face value, read my OP again, on my first play through I accepted the catalyst words at face value, I've had time to reflect since I cannot bring myself to play the game, on first glance synthesis looks like the best option, especially as the other two appear to present destructive options, this is where most players(including myself) consider the options some kind of reward, but they are not, they are a means to get the reward.

But rewards are not necessarily good, the reward could be death or billions in gold, we see it in story's, hear it in movies "Here's your reward, *gunshot*"