164 réponses à ce sujet

[bluewolv1970]

I think synthesis is only available at higher ems because starchild/reapers are worried we can destroy them and save the galaxy too, so they have to try and bluff us into turning oursleves into syntheitc monsters...

[Guanxii]

There is no correct answer.... all 3 are equally valid depending on your own interpretation of life. The Reapers don't have a preference... which is why they leave that up to you. Synthesis is the end of all organic and synthetic life.... it's no more preferable than control or destroy to the Reapers & they're not good looking husks...  but they aren't really alive either. I'll give you that.

Yes it sucks that their evolution is forced into a new paradigm; but as a new singular species they are still clearly free to self-determine and free of reaper control. It's the end of REAL life though. It's an a-moral choice.

My own personal view is that control is the morally correct choice. The cycle is the cycle of life and that real life can only exist within it's confines. Who are to choose our own self-determination over the self-determination and future of all [future] organics and synthetics. For what... to live in some zombie like-state even with free will.

As the keeper of the cycle of life... I will let the [advanced] organics self-determinate until I have no other choice. REAL Life will go on.

Modifié par Guanxii, 23 avril 2012 - 01:49 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Great thread and as I said before, the game should play simple with its endings, since synthesis is crap.

Destroy. Control.

Paragon. Renegade.

Anderson. The Illusive Man.

Then the rest of ending plays out as feedback for your choices/EMS and ME3 becomes a great trilogy to remember in gaming history.

Edit:

Reptilian Rob wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Ready
for some speculation?, we inadvertently build it for them with high
EMS, we are doing their work for them, synthesis would be the most
complex of the options, the more scientists and engineers we throw at
the crucible the greater the chance it gets built, remember, we don't
know what the crucible does or how it functions(bit silly if you ask me,
but that's the story)

Do you think it's more of a
test, to have organics that are worthy/capable of synthesis?  Or in part
because having it created by the organics will provide an unpredictable
element that the Catalyst couldn't properly account for?

From
the reapers point of view, yes, but from Shepards point of view it's a
violation of everything he/she stood for throughout the series, strength
through diversity, individuality, synthesis in the end just boils down
to prettier looking husks.

Also, you force something onto others without consent.

Again, something Shepard would never do.

A Paragon Shep never, a Renegade wouldn't care.

The more I think about it, the more Control seems the most paragon option. Ironic isn't it?
Thanks TIM.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 23 avril 2012 - 01:43 .

[DJBare]

humes spork wrote...
Synthesis is posed, and demonstrated on-screen during the ending, to be a mechanism through which the Reapers lose control -- galactic life is synthesized, but maintaining its form, individuality, character and ultimately diversity.

I have to ask why you consider they lose control?

Catalyst: ALL organic and synthetic life will be merged
With the empasis on "ALL"; Reapers are both organic and synthetic, even if we accept that indiviuality is maintained, the reapers are now a part of that new frame work, it's also the pinnacle of evolution, the only way is down.

[miraclemight]

At least with the Control ending, there's a chance for the current or next generation to 'fix' the Reaper problem if anything goes wrong again.

With Synthesis, they're screwed beyond repair.

[Dendio1]

miraclemight wrote...

At least with the Control ending, there's a chance for the current or next generation to 'fix' the Reaper problem if anything goes wrong again.

With Synthesis, they're screwed beyond repair.

There is no next generation for synthesis. DNA is reworked entirely. There is no need for babies.

[humes spork]

DJBare wrote...

I have to ask why you consider they lose control?

Catalyst: ALL organic and synthetic life will be merged
With the empasis on "ALL"; Reapers are both organic and synthetic, even if we accept that indiviuality is maintained, the reapers are now a part of that new frame work, it's also the pinnacle of evolution, the only way is down.

The relays are destroyed. The Citadel is destroyed. The Reapers lose their primary tool for maintaining a chokehold on other races' social and technological development; remember for what purpose the relays and Citadel serve for the Reapers, and with those gone those other races are "free to pursue their own paths of technological development", as Legion would put it. That, alone, is a prima facie loss of control -- control over how other species' evolve, technologically, physically and socially.

Are you suggesting that under the new framework posited by synthesis, Reapers would go on to act as something of an apex predator? I would argue, not necessarily -- sparing the cycle, the Reapers' only need to "predate" other species' is self-perpetuation and there is not enough information to draw a reliable conclusion on whether Reapers would do so or even have a need.

[DJBare]

miraclemight wrote...

At least with the Control ending, there's a chance for the current or next generation to 'fix' the Reaper problem if anything goes wrong again.

With Synthesis, they're screwed beyond repair.

Even the control ending is highly suspect, Legion himself states billions of minds incomprehensible even to him, Shepard is one mind among billions.

[DJBare]

humes spork wrote...
The relays are destroyed. The Citadel is destroyed. The Reapers lose their primary tool for maintaining a chokehold on other races' social and technological development; remember for what purpose the relays and Citadel serve for the Reapers, and with those gone those other races are "free to pursue their own paths of technological development", as Legion would put it. That, alone, is a prima facie loss of control -- control over how other species' evolve, technologically, physically and socially.

They have their choke hold, they do not require those tools anymore, they are now a part of everything.

Are you suggesting that under the new framework posited by synthesis, Reapers would go on to act as something of an apex predator? I would argue, not necessarily -- sparing the cycle, the Reapers' only need to "predate" other species' is self-perpetuation and there is not enough information to draw a reliable conclusion on whether Reapers would do so or even have a need.

No, because they have no need to be predators, there is no lower life form, everything including plant life is synthesised throughout the galaxy, I still laugh at plant life being merged.

[Zolt51]

DJBare wrote...

TX-Toast wrote...

Why is high EMS needed for the synthesis option? I can't figure how EMS determine what choices the catalyst shows you.

Because with high EMS you are a greater threat, so the catalyst presents what appears to be a garden of eden choice.

Nope. I don't think it's in the Catalyst's power to open or close any of the path. EMS is exactly how "perfect" a Crucible you've been able to build, then how much firepower you have to keep is safe and undamaged til it reaches the Citadel. 

If all depended on the catalyst, Synthesis would be the only choice it gives you.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

DJBare wrote...

humes spork wrote...
Synthesis is posed, and demonstrated on-screen during the ending, to be a mechanism through which the Reapers lose control -- galactic life is synthesized, but maintaining its form, individuality, character and ultimately diversity.

I have to ask why you consider they lose control?

Catalyst: ALL organic and synthetic life will be merged
With the empasis on "ALL"; Reapers are both organic and synthetic, even if we accept that indiviuality is maintained, the reapers are now a part of that new frame work, it's also the pinnacle of evolution, the only way is down.

The Normandy crew stranded on that planet. They seemed fine and in controls of their thoughts. To say the were "reaperized" and indoctrinated is farfetched. It is also safe to assume that the reapers were affected by the Crucible synthesis energy in some way or form.
Although the new framework retains some of galactic diversity, I belive it does. I don't think the reapers have any control of it.

[palanora]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess if your EMS isn't high enough, you're not "worthy" to be considered viable for synthesis, as you are too weak and haven't proven to be an addition that strengthens the new race.

Yeah that's what I am wondering as well. It fits with the idea that the Crucible is designed to work with the Citadel which strongly indicates the idea behind it was present. I'm warming to the idea that it might just be a test.

Synthesis is definitely provided as an option that the Catalyst doesn't ostensibly state any negative consequences to it (even though near as I can tell, Shepard dies just the same as in the Control ending).

The problem is :
Who's test?
Who named Casper a tester?
Why would there be a tester at all?
Why does a machine need a Casper?
War assets by defenition means things you use in war . War is not an abstract machine doing our handy work for you like genocide, etc...

[DJBare]

Zolt51 wrote...

If all depended on the catalyst, Synthesis would be the only choice it gives you.

It does not depend on the catalyst, it depends on you, the only thing the catalyst requires is you get enough EMS(engineers and scientists) to build the options, the  catalyst then tells you about those options, the higher your EMS the greater your chance to pass the reapers test, if you can create the synthesis option then you have passed their test and are worthy to be merged, Reapers in simple terms are an extreme cult.

Modifié par DJBare, 23 avril 2012 - 02:49 .

[DJBare]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
The Normandy crew stranded on that planet. They seemed fine and in controls of their thoughts. To say the were "reaperized" and indoctrinated is farfetched. It is also safe to assume that the reapers were affected by the Crucible synthesis energy in some way or form.
Although the new framework retains some of galactic diversity, I belive it does. I don't think the reapers have any control of it.

So do the indoctrinated, a good example being the scientists in Arrival.

[Cobra's_back]

Bill Casey wrote...

If anything, high end destroy should rob the Geth of their Reaper gifts...
They return to their collective and have to achieve their AI evolution on their own...

It should also rob EDI of a portion of her intelligence...


I mean, the whole point of Destroy is a categorical rejection of the need for the Reapers...
You put faith that synthetics and organics will find a way to coexist on their own...

makes sense.

[humes spork]

DJBare wrote...

They have their choke hold, they do not require those tools anymore, they are now a part of everything.

Provide evidence for this supposition, please.

[humes spork]

DJBare wrote...

So do the indoctrinated, a good example being the scientists in Arrival.

That's a highly specious counterargument. I could, for example, use that reasoning to suppose that based upon what we don't know happened on Earth, that Anderson was captured, indoctrinated, and that for his part in planning the Sol counteroffensive the entire thing was an elaborate ruse by the Reapers to draw out the Crucible and destroy it, the organics' fleets, and kill Shepard in one fell swoop.

Or that it was a carefully-orchestrated plot to lure Shepard to the Citadel in the first place...

Modifié par humes spork, 23 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[miraclemight]

humes spork wrote...

DJBare wrote...

So do the indoctrinated, a good example being the scientists in Arrival.

That's a highly specious counterargument. I could, for example, use that reasoning to suppose that based upon what we don't know happened on Earth, that Anderson was captured, indoctrinated, and that for his part in planning the Sol counteroffensive the entire thing was an elaborate ruse by the Reapers to draw out the Crucible and destroy it, the organics' fleets, and kill Shepard in one fell swoop.

Or that it was a carefully-orchestrated plot to lure Shepard to the Citadel in the first place...

I guess one could argue that they would have stationed some Reapers outside Charon to destroy the Crucible asap if that was the case, but sadly, there were so many Reaper logic-fails in ME3 that I wouldn't be surprised if this, too, was another one of those...

Has anybody managed to find out why the Reapers didn't try to bypass the Prothean hack and disable the relays at all? They could at least disable Charon, effectively separating the Hammer and Sword from Shield. 

Modifié par miraclemight, 23 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[DJBare]

humes spork wrote...
That's a highly specious counterargument.

Yes it is, I cannot argue the point, this thread is about the options and the percieved idea they are rewards of some kind, again partly my own fault for encouraging discussion beyond my OP.

[-Spartan]

Sadly one cant get a high EMS without doing MP. I got every point I could SP wise and chose destroy since it has been my goal from day one but the earth burned nonetheless.

[Kunari801]

-Spartan wrote...

Sadly one cant get a high EMS without doing MP. I got every point I could SP wise and chose destroy since it has been my goal from day one but the earth burned nonetheless.

There is a save game editor to raise your score, at least for PC. 

[Oldbones2]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's an interesting hypothesis and not one that I've seen yet. The motivations for doing so certainly can be rationalized when one factors in that the catalyst is the controller of the Reapers.

Although if synthesis is the goal of the Reapers, why wouldn't it always be presented. Or is there still something to be said about the Crucible's construction, in that the Catalyst won't provide an option that it knows won't work properly because we built some POS Crucible that will behave erratically?

Cause it was written poorly?

I mean, the catalyst only says the dialogue you guys wrote, so obviously you thought synthesis was the optimal solution.


Problem is, many people have a different opinion.

[eddieoctane]

DJBare wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Red = Mass Genocide

Gotta pick the lesser evil and go with genocide.

It's only mass genocide if have low EMS and/or believe the catalyst, yes the relays are put out of commision whatever you choose and it's believed by many that the races are stranded, but that's a whole other topic, this is about people considering the three options to be some kind of reward when in hindsight they are not.

Well, there is a question of the Quarians survival as they are also riddled with implants like Shepard. The Geth are outright stated to be targets of the destroy option. And who knows what happens if Reaper-upgraded Geth are living inside the enviro-suits of the Quarians if you got the two to make peace. So there is still a heavily implied.inferred genocide.

I agree that there is no reward, however. All our actions amount to nothing in the end.

[DJBare]

eddieoctane wrote...

Well, there is a question of the Quarians survival as they are also riddled with implants like Shepard. The Geth are outright stated to be targets of the destroy option. And who knows what happens if Reaper-upgraded Geth are living inside the enviro-suits of the Quarians if you got the two to make peace. So there is still a heavily implied.inferred genocide.

I agree that there is no reward, however. All our actions amount to nothing in the end.

Yes it's a concern if you accept the word of the catalyst because the game itself gives no answers.

Speculation: Max EMS allows the crucible to only target reaper tech, in other words the geth only lose the upgrades, they are still functional.

[humes spork]

DJBare wrote...

Yes it is, I cannot argue the point, this thread is about the options and the percieved idea they are rewards of some kind, again partly my own fault for encouraging discussion beyond my OP.

Well, that's rather the issue. "Reward" can be defined in many different ways. Operating in-universe and not on the metagame level (which is where you were going with your OP) it depends upon Shepard's priorities and whether synthetic life has intrinsic value I suppose.