164 réponses à ce sujet

[xefiroEA]

I don't like the idea of the Crucible as a test because it doesn't make sense. A well designed test would meet certain criteria. You'd expect two people with similar preparation and skill to perform similarly in a test. Testing the same person several times should provide a small dispersion of results. You should be testing the person being tested, not assign a mark based on someone else's efforts. You know, reasonable rules.

The Crucible is nothing like that. Getting the test in the first place is a matter of luck. If your cycle didn't find the blueprints, you have no chance of passing it.

Constructing the Crucible is also dependent on how many people came before you. The first cycle was either given the most basic Crucible plans possible by the Reapers, or had this crazy idea to start with and left the designs behind. Every cycle following them added something to the Crucible, but couldn't get it working or couldn't get it to the Reaper controlled Citadel through the disabled relay network.

Our cycle finally 'passed' the test, but only because the rules of the test were modified by the Protheans. Instead of starting with the Citadel taken by the Reapers and no relay network, we kept the Citadel and the Relays to help us. And we had the most advanced design of the Crucible to date.

And our chances of passing in the first place were terrible. If you did the test a hundred times, we'd lose ninety nine times. Shepard is the only thing standing between success and failure, and how many times did you have to reload because you died, anyway?

And what is changing between tests? Life isn't being allowed to grow and change. They're not trying to teach the galaxy to reach for some goal.

An analogy would be an exam room with a line of students. You let them into the room, give them a bit of time to solve a problem, then go in and grade them. You make them leave whatever notes they had behind, and call in the next one. Repeating this until someone has enough notes left that the problem is basically solved. There is no merit to their success, no reason why they are more deserving than those that came before.

In short, it's a terrible test.

[txmn1016]

I find this topic to be really interesting--and a clue as to why most people picked 'Destroy' (see the various polls on this subject). With the other options, there really isn't any verifiable 'rewards' for raising your EMS. With 'Destroy' you at least somewhat see the fruits of your labor in the status of Earth afterward and the potential breathing scene.

So looking at it in terms of rewarding the player is a very intriguing and telling way to examine how players engaged with and reacted to the ending(s). I think you're on to something here. Nice observation.

[Allan Schumacher]

The Crucible is nothing like that. Getting the test in the first place is a matter of luck. If your cycle didn't find the blueprints, you have no chance of passing it.

I think if you're going with the idea that it's a test, the construction of the Crucible itself is the test. The similar preparation and skill comes with acquiring the EMS value. Those that do poorly in acquiring EMS ostensibly fail the test (and eradicate their own species).

[RyuGuitarFreak]

DJBare wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
The Normandy crew stranded on that planet. They seemed fine and in controls of their thoughts. To say the were "reaperized" and indoctrinated is farfetched. It is also safe to assume that the reapers were affected by the Crucible synthesis energy in some way or form.
Although the new framework retains some of galactic diversity, I belive it does. I don't think the reapers have any control of it.

So do the indoctrinated, a good example being the scientists in Arrival.

Yeah, you could say so. I still think it's farfetched. If synthesis = everyone being indoctrinated and forever being in control of the reapers, the choice being presented as being the best outcome is an outrite lie and beyond stupid game design.
I prefer that it's simple BS and stupid in a way that both organics and synthesis retained their free will and it never stop completely stop both being able to create synthetic AI that's capable of destroying them.

[Bigdoser]

Yup hence why my renegade(renegon for those who like the names) femshep went for destory the mission objective is to destory the reapers EDI and the Geth knew the risks and they fought to kill the reapers EDI even says that she would give her life to stop them. If they did survive the destory ending thats a bonus and the fact that shepard takes a breath proves that the geth and EDI might be alive.

Plus vent kid is shown to be clearly bias to synthesis and slightly to control. Since how I view control is go on then control them you will become like me . Hence why it looks like he smirks when you pick control. Plus why would you change the galaxy on the whim of something you just met?

[-Spartan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The Crucible is nothing like that. Getting the test in the first place is a matter of luck. If your cycle didn't find the blueprints, you have no chance of passing it.

I think if you're going with the idea that it's a test, the construction of the Crucible itself is the test. The similar preparation and skill comes with acquiring the EMS value. Those that do poorly in acquiring EMS ostensibly fail the test (and eradicate their own species).

That sounds like an old Star Trek episode plot as well as a B5 move central premise.

[TreguardD]

To the OP:

Interestingly, this where it contrasts with Fable 2, where all three of the options given are *Clearly* rewards.

YMMV about which you think is best.

[Cirreus]

I agree the three (really only 1 option, I'll get that) are not rewards, but I disagree for the reasons why.

1. EMS is a form of DRM. Until a person can easily achieve all possible out comes offline, it's nothing more than what it's designed to do. EMS links to required online 3 folds. A. Slow the sale of used copies from Gamestop. B. Keep minimal amount of people playing multiplayer (which in turns also sells copies of spectre packs). C. The rate of decay on EMS ties A & B together. You'll always have to go back to multiplayer to experience the most from single player.

EMS = DRM = Customer Punishment = No Reward



***I believe the ExCut will negate part of that (just the being sh*t on part). But I wouldn't put it past Bioware to be stupid & deny core elements of the ExCut because they haven't played the game for a while*** (GR at 50% ? no elcor battle tanks 4u !)

2. No war assets, zero assets of any kind effect the out come of the game beyond a numerical value. It can be rationalized that those assets do something, but they only a beans in a jar. When enough beans are in a jar, you get more cut scenes. It's as simple as that. If the Crucible was optional to build, or say I needed a specific war asset to a specific cut scene, that would be a completely different story.

War Assets (requiring Excel) = No Reward

(puts this comic in perspective, and it was posted online 8 months ago!)

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/567


About there being 3 options. I believe there is only 1 option , Destroy. Control & Synthesis are the same. It's more of the nonsensical nature of the space brat, but Synthesis already happened supposedly millions (billions?) of years ago with the first Reaper & has continued since then. Control is just going to repeat the cycle apparently. So Blue is convential (50,000 years to bake a cake) synthesis & green is (instant pudding) space magic synthesis. What was the reason for Synthesis if everyone is already doing it anyway (in all flavors of the rainbow) ?

Destroy seems to be the only (lore) option. It's the one most governed by the spreedsheet nerds at EA/Bioware, and the only one possible with in all EMS scores. So it's even more rail roading at the end. No A, B, C ... just a road sign



Road signs are not rewards !

Modifié par Cirreus, 24 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[Necrotron]

None of it makes much sense. That is part of the problem why so many people are upset.

[Noelemahc]

I don't like the idea of the Crucible as a test because it doesn't make sense. A well designed test would meet certain criteria. You'd expect two people with similar preparation and skill to perform similarly in a test. Testing the same person several times should provide a small dispersion of results. You should be testing the person being tested, not assign a mark based on someone else's efforts. You know, reasonable rules.

Who ever said anything about reasonable? At the point where your depravity reaches sufficient heights so that you see as acceptable the act of turning your race into a flock of giant cybernetic cuttlefish that lives in dark space and comes into other people's galaxies every now and again to see if they built some doodad you designed so you could reward them or punish them by turning them into grey goo to fuel MORE cybernetic cuttlefish, you don't really have to care about reasonable anymore.

This is the part where we go even beyond the blue-and-orange morality everyone assumed about the Reapers -- they're doing this the way they're doing this BECAUSE THEY CAN and nobody can stop them. For all we know, the Starchild might be some extinct race's SHODAN or SkyNet or Cylon Commander (who may or may not have had a hand in their extinction) and was certifiably insane since Day One.

Which is some sort of justification, although I still say that using such a plot without properly justifying it in-universe is still shoddy writing.

Compare and contrast - the Darkspawn of Dragon Age, who are effectively their husks, with the Archdemons, their Reapers, are more justified because, hey, they are demonically-possessed creations that are inimical to life driven by the sins of the magi of the past. You get ALL of their motivation, justification and explanation in the OPENING CUTSCENE. The meat of the plot is about how the races of Ferelden react to the Blight and fight to survive it. We did not have a lengthy conversation with the Archdemon about why it's doing this or what the Warden might do to stop it. Although the First Blight may very well have gone down this road, we may never know.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 24 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[txmn1016]

So your theory got me thinking more about the ME series in general. I'm thinking this "reward" idea is also why the ending of ME2 was so popular.

You literally saw all the fruits of your hardwork in the finale. Whether it had been from shielding to the ship, to the epically delivered line (at least by femshep) "Fire the main gun", to having everyone survive. In that game, you saw the rewards of all your efforts throughout the game.

Anyway, just thought I should state again what a good point you made. And again, I think it explains why many people ended up choosing "Destroy" over the other options.

[UnstableMongoose]

If you take the ending sequence literally:

I had the honor to attend a talk by former South African president F.W. de Klerk a little over a month ago. The one thing he said that stuck with everyone was:

"There are no painless solutions to serious problems."

The Crucible's firing is the solution to the most serious problem in the galaxy. It's not supposed to be a "reward", and nor should it be. In ME3, you can usually slip out of making difficult choices, such as choosing between the Geth and the Quarians. If any of the Crucible's choices were obviously the "good" choice, then it would be a pointless exercise to have the choices anyway.

If you take the ending as Indoc theory or some similar concept:

Of course none of the choices is a reward. Offering people difficult choices that you actually control is an easy way to start swinging them to your way of thinking, but offering them an easy and clear-cut solution is just going to make them suspicious. The presentation of the Catalyst's choices as difficult ones is attempted to make you wonder if the Reapers' motivations, and the ethical decisions that they have made, might be correct.

[Dendio1]

TreguardD wrote...


To the OP:

Interestingly, this where it contrasts with Fable 2, where all three of the options given are *Clearly* rewards.

YMMV about which you think is best.

I think its closer to Deus ex HR. Not rewards so much as a means to end the plot. Both game endings just felt like  dev time ran out, and some director yelled out...alright people lets wrap it up!

Modifié par Dendio1, 24 avril 2012 - 05:15 .

[EricHVela]

The game failed to show that Lower EMS results in a poor quality Crucible and a higher EMS results in a better quality Crucible (because it was rushed).

The Catalyst can do more with a better quality Crucible than a lower quality Crucible. (This fits in with the notion that Earth burns with the lower EMS as well.)

[zarnk567]

Dendio1 wrote...

TreguardD wrote...


To the OP:

Interestingly, this where it contrasts with Fable 2, where all three of the options given are *Clearly* rewards.

YMMV about which you think is best.

I think its closer to Deus ex HR. Not rewards so much as a means to end the plot. Both game endings just felt like  dev time ran out, and some director yelled out...alright people lets wrap it up!

Well to be fair Deus Ex: HR was a prequel. So they could only end it so it did not interfere with the orginal Deus Ex world. It had a nice tie in with the orginal Deus ex in the epilouge tho.

[Kalundume]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The Crucible is nothing like that. Getting the test in the first place is a matter of luck. If your cycle didn't find the blueprints, you have no chance of passing it.

I think if you're going with the idea that it's a test, the construction of the Crucible itself is the test. The similar preparation and skill comes with acquiring the EMS value. Those that do poorly in acquiring EMS ostensibly fail the test (and eradicate their own species).

Morally speaking the one who tests the organics is not worth it. .... with all crimes commited by the Reapers, their tests are meaningless. Survival by all the cost is not the first predicate of sentient civilisation. Even ME3 confirms that in Edi/Shepard discussion about concentration camps.

Modifié par Kalundume, 24 avril 2012 - 05:29 .

[ArchDuck]

IF the crucible really had been a test, wouldn't the rewards be more of parameters which you unlocked so you could build your own end result?

As is they are not rewards. They are more like an angry zealot father asking whether you want to a) run away go fetch the switch or c) make him have to take off his belt
All are unpleasant.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 24 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[txmn1016]

ReggarBlane wrote...

The game failed to show that Lower EMS results in a poor quality Crucible and a higher EMS results in a better quality Crucible (because it was rushed).

The Catalyst can do more with a better quality Crucible than a lower quality Crucible. (This fits in with the notion that Earth burns with the lower EMS as well.)

Did it really fail?  I don't think it did the best it could do (personally think there should have been polar opposite endings in addition to the already existing endings--i.e. Reapers win vs. Organic life wins/Shep lives), but EMS definitely played a role (though admittedly, not a huge role) in what endingsthat  were available to you.

[Humakt83]

nitefyre410 wrote...

They're all wrong and I reject them all... I would rather let the Reapers win and pave the way for the next group of civilizations.

That IS the fourth option. Do nothing and Reapers win. All the species you encountered are now extinct, instead of just one and all you've achieved is really for naught.

Ending is not Deus Ex machine, it is Diabolus Ex Machine. But even that is not really true. The ending is a puzzle, a severe test (which is one of the meanings for word Crucible) . It tests player's perception and judgement. And that is the reason why current ending is actually great. But it should not be the end and that is the reason why extended ending is required.

[Kalundume]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

If you take the ending sequence literally:

I had the honor to attend a talk by former South African president F.W. de Klerk a little over a month ago. The one thing he said that stuck with everyone was:

"There are no painless solutions to serious problems."

Of course none of the choices is a reward. Offering people difficult choices that you actually control is an easy way to start swinging them to your way of thinking, but offering them an easy and clear-cut solution is just going to make them suspicious. The presentation of the Catalyst's choices as difficult ones is attempted to make you wonder if the Reapers' motivations, and the ethical decisions that they have made, might be correct.

UnstableMongoose ... you said you talked with last Apartheid chief... I say to you that I come from Poland, the country that has been probably the one of the closest witnesses (and mass victims in occasion) to what might have resembled to "reapers" and I can assure you ... no one will search here for philosophical ramifications or "reasons" if their proposed choices were good or bad.

Any solution proposed by a *total* enemy is bad. That is the case of Mass Effect 3. The enemy shown in game is total, ruthless, and no compromise is possible. Thus all 3 crucibles solutions are bad from the very beginning and all of them are inacceptable. I can also assure you that there is always a 4th (or even 5th) solution.

With my example: Poland in 1938 was proposed a "synthesis" solution by Hitler : joining their cause and attacking together soviet union, Poland refused, suffering a "destruction" solution instead, Hitler has not even tried to use "control" solution, as he has not found sufficient amount of traitors in there (they were eliminated quickly)... the fourth solution was simple: hold the damned line by all cost and all the fronts possible.

Full stop.

[comrade gando]

Hmm what if the final part of the game is so dang epic (like suicide mission on crack) that it had to be developed seperately from the rest of the game. All your choices matter, war assets shown in action, showdown with TIM once and for all, and final boss vs harbinger.

Thats some mad wishful thinking tho

[Untold]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's an interesting hypothesis and not one that I've seen yet. The motivations for doing so certainly can be rationalized when one factors in that the catalyst is the controller of the Reapers.

Although if synthesis is the goal of the Reapers, why wouldn't it always be presented. Or is there still something to be said about the Crucible's construction, in that the Catalyst won't provide an option that it knows won't work properly because we built some POS Crucible that will behave erratically?

I think that's a good point. There are things you can get asset wise that actually state in the description help focus, regulate and improve the Crucible's power/effectiveness. Maybe could play more of a roll than has been let on. Or maybe not. Hard to say until we see what the devs have in store.

[Dnayew]

Interesting post and comments. Reaffirms my belief that although killing the Geth sucks, Destroy is really the only WIN option.

[DJBare]

Kalundume wrote...
Morally speaking the one who tests the organics is not worth it. .... with all crimes commited by the Reapers, their tests are meaningless. Survival by all the cost is not the first predicate of sentient civilisation. Even ME3 confirms that in Edi/Shepard discussion about concentration camps.

Morals have nothing to do with it, because the protagonist is not aware it's a test, the crucible was started by the Reapers probably in the first cycle, the cycle that eventually completes the crucible passes the test.

[TMA LIVE]

I think the problem with the options not being considered rewarding is because of two factors:

1) You don't know the outcome of your final choice. It's left up to speculation. You don't know if you made the right choice or the wrong choice, because it's never revealed. You don't even know if your other choices payed off. You don't even feel like all that work was worth it, because it's never shown in the ending.

2) You don't defeat the Reapers. The Reapers allow you to defeat them. The only reason why you won is because the creator of the Reapers let you. Making all that talk about "Finding a way", being nothing but hopeful thinking, that never came true. You won, because it allowed it. And your choice is based off what it wants. Not what you want.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 24 avril 2012 - 06:24 .