Aller au contenu

Photo

Gender, class and Specialization Should Matter


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
59 réponses à ce sujet

#51
LinksOcarina

LinksOcarina
  • Members
  • 6 594 messages

wsandista wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...


AngryFrozenWater wrote...

When I look at DA2 then I think most of us can agree that playing a mage was silly. You were not hunted like all the other mages. You were not even recognized when you threw fireballs around, wore a robe and carried a staff. Blood magic wasn't recognized either. Even merchants were allowed to sell blood mage gear in the open just a couple of yards away from Meredith's office.

By implementing gameplay and story changes or accents based on your class and specialization all of the above sillyness could have been avoided. The same goes for the gender samples in the OP. It would not only create a believable world and promote replayability, it would also remove all the rationalizations to keep the story railroaded.




Templars didn't do anything in Dragon Age: Origins either. So I am confused as to why this is a big deal when it was not a big deal in game one.


Templars were much more prevalent in DA2 though.


So?

I'm just saying it's a design choice that was made from the first game. It's not a good design choice, but to complain about it is kinda nitpicky honestly when that was something that was not changed from Origins to Dragon Age II.

#52
SerTabris

SerTabris
  • Members
  • 254 messages
I wouldn't really expect people to treat you as a templar with the specialization. Most of what makes people react to templars is them being part of their order, whereas even with the specialization you don't actually join up or anything. You're just using their abilities with some lyrium you got from somewhere (or at least that's how I remember the DA2 description).

#53
Vovea

Vovea
  • Members
  • 446 messages

Elton John is dead wrote...
Well you're not really fighting sexism by having a Qunari (a culture that don't view women as warriors) comment on you being a woman and then having it harder to impress him as a result. I must have missed those comments from Varric and other NPC's but I'm not surprised considering how small and nonsubstantial they are.

I find that a good thing. I don't need NPC's going around saying 'you are a woman!' more than what is regarded as 'small and nonsubstantial' to add variation to my game. To quote Dragon Age: Origins on gender: 'Men and Women in Ferelden are generally regarded as equal. Both genders are represented equally in most organisations, noble houses and military forces'. So, yeah, Ferelden is cool. In Orlais it seems as if it has eventually come to the same conclusion (after Ser Aveline).

As for Antiva (where a woman a woman fighting in battle is unthinkable according to the human noble origin) and for the Qunari, I agree that it  should be commented on. It has been so in Origins with Sten and in Dragon Age II, where the Arishok first rejects the idea of a duel with a Lady Hawke who hasn't got the 'Worthy Rival' status because of gender. Small changes like that I don't have a problem with, I just hate the idea of being forced to take a different route for a quest because of my characters gender.

If it was optional it would be less of an irritating idea but it still seem like unnecessary work when instead effort should be focused on class. class is an option with clearer definitions: Warriors are strong. Rogues are agile. Gender has stereotypes. Not all woman are a certain way neither are all men.

Elton John is dead wrote...
I swear only a female character could convince that dwarf in Redcliffe to fight in battle using normal dialogue.


Nope. It was a persuasion option along with the other ones the male characters could use added for those who wished to play their character that way.

Elton John is dead wrote...
Why would having one man who views women as sex objects or even a woman who views men as sex objects be so bad? Such clearly exists in Antiva where there's an ideal of women being pure and delicate. So different gender views aren't absent from the world of Dragon Age.


Because people who suffer sexism in their real life don't want it in their escapism as well. Same for homophobic or any other derogatory content.

Modifié par Vovea, 13 mai 2012 - 11:05 .


#54
Guest_Faerunner_*

Guest_Faerunner_*
  • Guests

Elton John is dead wrote...

I mean Dragon Age is supposed to be set in a dark fantasy world. We have mages cutting themselves to perform blood magic, The Chantry controlling the lyrium supply of Templars who are addicted to lyrium like drug-addicts, demons possessing people, elves being treated like second-class citizens (racism) and even abused and raped by humans and then we have the dwarves who have lost most of their kingdom to the seemingly neverending threat of the darkspawn who create new darkspawn via broodmothers who were once human, elven, dwarven or qunari.

Why would having one man who views women as sex objects or even a woman who views men as sex objects be so bad? Such clearly exists in Antiva where there's an ideal of women being pure and delicate. So different gender views aren't absent from the world of Dragon Age.


To be honest, I agree with Elton John is Dead.

Bioware has set Thedas up as a world where people treat each other differently based on their race, gender, class and specialization. In the first game, people treated your character differently based on your race, gender, class and specialization just like anyone else (mostly). People who play the Dragon Age games should come to expect this already. To have NPCs turn around and blatantly take exception with the main character just because the player might find it unpleasant frankly breaks the laws of their own universe and suspends disbelief (further than when it was unintentional or cut for time/budget).

#55
wsandista

wsandista
  • Members
  • 2 723 messages

LinksOcarina wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Templars were much more prevalent in DA2 though.


So?

I'm just saying it's a design choice that was made from the first game. It's not a good design choice, but to complain about it is kinda nitpicky honestly when that was something that was not changed from Origins to Dragon Age II.


Well Grey Wardens get a pass from being hunted by Templars. Even if that is ignored, The Warden moved around
and didn't stay in one place for long.

In DA2, Hawke is not a Warden, and Templars basically control the city Hawke is living in, which Hawke is a resident of for 7 years. Chances are some Templars even see Hawke using magic. So Hawke had more chances to get caught and didn't have a "use magic freely without getting shipped to the Circle of Magi" card that the Warden had.

#56
LinksOcarina

LinksOcarina
  • Members
  • 6 594 messages

wsandista wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Templars were much more prevalent in DA2 though.


So?

I'm just saying it's a design choice that was made from the first game. It's not a good design choice, but to complain about it is kinda nitpicky honestly when that was something that was not changed from Origins to Dragon Age II.


Well Grey Wardens get a pass from being hunted by Templars. Even if that is ignored, The Warden moved around
and didn't stay in one place for long.

In DA2, Hawke is not a Warden, and Templars basically control the city Hawke is living in, which Hawke is a resident of for 7 years. Chances are some Templars even see Hawke using magic. So Hawke had more chances to get caught and didn't have a "use magic freely without getting shipped to the Circle of Magi" card that the Warden had.


Fair point, but then that is using the excuse of the nature, and stature, of the player character to a minimun.
And honestly, I can say the same thing about Hawke after Act I. He got the stature and status of a nobleman due to his riches from the Deep Roads, so you could argue it made him powerful enough where he couldn't be touched. As for Act III, they won't throw the champion into the Circle by then. 

So really if this is the case, then even storywise for half of the game Hawke is in the clear when using magic. The only evidence to the contrary is Emile De Launcet and Gascard Dupois, who were in the circle and did their magic secretly, respectively. But you can argue that they had little weight or standing within the city compared to Hawke as well; hell, the Vicount asks Hawke for help in dealing with the Qunari, so I think on Vicounts orders he would get a little slack for that.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 14 mai 2012 - 02:55 .


#57
wsandista

wsandista
  • Members
  • 2 723 messages

LinksOcarina wrote...


Fair point, but then that is using the excuse of the nature, and stature, of the player character to a minimum.
And honestly, I can say the same thing about Hawke after Act I. He got the stature and status of a nobleman due to his riches from the Deep Roads, so you could argue it made him powerful enough where he couldn't be touched. As for Act III, they won't throw the champion into the Circle by then. 

So really if this is the case, then even storywise for half of the game Hawke is in the clear when using magic. The only evidence to the contrary is Emile De Launcet and Gascard Dupois, who were in the circle and did their magic secretly, respectively. But you can argue that they had little weight or standing within the city compared to Hawke as well; hell, the Vicount asks Hawke for help in dealing with the Qunari, so I think on Vicounts orders he would get a little slack for that.


Nobles aren't exempt from the Templars, Grey Wardens are. Do you think Meredith is the type to let any mage slide? Hawke performed Magic in front of Cullen before Hawke saved Saemus though, so there is that time when Hawke should have been taken in. Hawke should've been shipped straight off to the Templars given Meredith's reputation. The only time a free mage Hawke becomes plausible is when Hawke becomes Champion.

Modifié par wsandista, 14 mai 2012 - 03:12 .


#58
Eternal Phoenix

Eternal Phoenix
  • Members
  • 8 471 messages

Vovea wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Why would having one man who views women as sex objects or even a woman who views men as sex objects be so bad? Such clearly exists in Antiva where there's an ideal of women being pure and delicate. So different gender views aren't absent from the world of Dragon Age.


Because people who suffer sexism in their real life don't want it in their escapism as well. Same for homophobic or any other derogatory content.


But it exists in the universe whether you like it or not and it's lore-breaking when the Qunari or anyone from a culture in the game don't really comment on such things but then again DA2 also had rogues with magical abilities such as the ability to teleport behind people so I guess lore doesn't matter anymore.

I'm not really asking for sexism to come into play either. That's not what this topic is about. I'm not asking for every single NPC to remark on your gender either as both men and women are seen as equals in Fereldan and Orlais. Taking Sten and The Arishok as examples, that's the type of stuff I would want to see and I guess it would only come into play if we encounter the Qunari again. You could still duel the Arishok if you had his respect.

I mean the Andrastian Chantry only has female priests whereas the Imperial Chantry has male priests. There's some type of gender role going on there because the Andrastian Chantry doesn't believe men should be priests so to pretend gender roles and views don't exist in Thedas is ignorance really.

I'm not asking for content to be locked off based on gender either. As I said earlier in this topic, you might get a quest where you have to sneak into a Chantry. Female characters could steal some robes from a priest leading them down a different path to acquire those robes whereas male characters could steal armor from a Templar which in turns leads down a different path to acquire the armor. Both characters still end up in the same place though and that's the Chantry.

Faerunner wrote...
To be honest, I agree with Elton John is Dead.

Bioware has set Thedas up as a world where people treat each other differently based on their race, gender, class and specialization. In the first game, people treated your character differently based on your race, gender, class and specialization just like anyone else (mostly). People who play the Dragon Age games should come to expect this already. To have NPCs turn around and blatantly take exception with the main character just because the player might find it unpleasant frankly breaks the laws of their own universe and suspends disbelief (further than when it was unintentional or cut for time/budget).

 

This sums it up perfectly. Racism is okay but sexism (which I'm not asking for anyways) isn't? Dragon Age is supposed to be set in a dark and gritty universe. Not some fairy tale universe where everyone holds hands and dances around. We've got the elves who are oppressed and who are treated as inferior to humans and yet playing as an elf in Origins didn't net you with limitations not experienced as a dwarf or human. You got a few differences in dialogue which made the role believable.

Dragon Age 2 was rushed. You got maybe one or two remarks here and there about your gender and you got maybe one or two actions specific to your class. The rogue for example had an action to throw the murder knife in one quest which no other class could do.

Add more examples of this and you've got a game that should be as replayable as Origins minus the origins.

Having all classes and both genders experience the same dialogue, same paths, same reaction and same choices kills replay value. What's the point playing a female blood mage if all NPC's see me as a male warrior? The only thing class changes then is your abilities and playstyle of the game. I mean as others have expained, all content could still be accessed but a different class might just access it in a different way and a male/female might get an extra dialogue option at one point.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 14 mai 2012 - 12:32 .


#59
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

wsandista wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...


Fair point, but then that is using the excuse of the nature, and stature, of the player character to a minimum.
And honestly, I can say the same thing about Hawke after Act I. He got the stature and status of a nobleman due to his riches from the Deep Roads, so you could argue it made him powerful enough where he couldn't be touched. As for Act III, they won't throw the champion into the Circle by then. 

So really if this is the case, then even storywise for half of the game Hawke is in the clear when using magic. The only evidence to the contrary is Emile De Launcet and Gascard Dupois, who were in the circle and did their magic secretly, respectively. But you can argue that they had little weight or standing within the city compared to Hawke as well; hell, the Vicount asks Hawke for help in dealing with the Qunari, so I think on Vicounts orders he would get a little slack for that.


Nobles aren't exempt from the Templars, Grey Wardens are. Do you think Meredith is the type to let any mage slide? Hawke performed Magic in front of Cullen before Hawke saved Saemus though, so there is that time when Hawke should have been taken in. Hawke should've been shipped straight off to the Templars given Meredith's reputation. The only time a free mage Hawke becomes plausible is when Hawke becomes Champion.


DA2 completely screwed up there. Bioware pandering to PC mage players.

#60
Vovea

Vovea
  • Members
  • 446 messages

Elton John is dead wrote...

Vovea wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Why would having one man who views women as sex objects or even a woman who views men as sex objects be so bad? Such clearly exists in Antiva where there's an ideal of women being pure and delicate. So different gender views aren't absent from the world of Dragon Age.


Because people who suffer sexism in their real life don't want it in their escapism as well. Same for homophobic or any other derogatory content.


But it exists in the universe whether you like it or not and it's lore-breaking when the Qunari or anyone from a culture in the game don't really comment on such things but then again DA2 also had rogues with magical abilities such as the ability to teleport behind people so I guess lore doesn't matter anymore.

I'm not really asking for sexism to come into play either. That's not what this topic is about. I'm not asking for every single NPC to remark on your gender either as both men and women are seen as equals in Fereldan and Orlais. Taking Sten and The Arishok as examples, that's the type of stuff I would want to see and I guess it would only come into play if we encounter the Qunari again. You could still duel the Arishok if you had his respect.

I mean the Andrastian Chantry only has female priests whereas the Imperial Chantry has male priests. There's some type of gender role going on there because the Andrastian Chantry doesn't believe men should be priests so to pretend gender roles and views don't exist in Thedas is ignorance really.

I'm not asking for content to be locked off based on gender either. As I said earlier in this topic, you might get a quest where you have to sneak into a Chantry. Female characters could steal some robes from a priest leading them down a different path to acquire those robes whereas male characters could steal armor from a Templar which in turns leads down a different path to acquire the armor. Both characters still end up in the same place though and that's the Chantry.


I was commenting on what you suggested before, not about the Qunari.

To reiterate, I wouldn't have a problem with dialogue changes so long as it doesn't effect the overall conversation (what has been in Origins and II) but I don't see the need to focus on gender when class and specialization could create enough differences between playthroughs.

Going back to having a character who views all members of the opposite gender as sex objects, those who are offended by sexism would find the sequence uncomfortable and awkward while those who aren't would be indifferent. Why put effort into a sequence that's purpose is to offend for the sake of calling attention to protagonist gender?