407 réponses à ce sujet

[Qeylis]

greghorvath wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

Here is my idea on fixing it...

Nate, I really like your link, but could you post the idea itself? thanks.

Qyelis wrote...
I'm one of the people that voted that I liked the store the way it is because I can't make sense of your poll!

erm... I am not sure what I can say to that without asking for a ban...

Perhaps the only thing is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking the store. None whatsoever. The questions are not biased and there is no lead in them. I was not interested in changing the store with the poll, I only wanted to research the community attitude. As it happens 76% wants it to change.

I HATE the store the way it is.  However, all most of us want is to stop being trolled by maxed out character cards.  I certainly do not want to purchase individual pieces of equipment.

Okay, just some logic (as explained about three times before). If you like the store, but you don't, then you don't like the store the way it is, ergo, you would like it to change. If you don't like the way it works now and when buying a pack you would prefer to get something you know is going to be useful for you, thats pretty much in line with wanting to know what you are buying. You do need a bit of artistic license, but clearly your option would be: You like the store but you would prefer to know what you are buying. This option is actually in the poll.

No, because that would give the impression that I wanted to know exactly what I was buying.  I do not!  I just don't want maxed out Character Cards.  Any other random thing is fine.  But I definetly want it to be random, because random is fun.

Getting nothing is not fun though.  Maxed Character Cards are nothing.  So, my answer should have been:  

I like the random store, I just don't like repeat cards.

[BleedingUranium]

Qeylis wrote...

No, because that would give the impression that I wanted to know exactly what I was buying.  I do not!  I just don't want maxed out Character Cards.  Any other random thing is fine.  But I definetly want it to be random, because random is fun.

Getting nothing is not fun though.  Maxed Character Cards are nothing.  So, my answer should have been:  

I like the random store, I just don't like repeat cards.

This! If they removed the repeating Character Cards I would probably spend at least some money, because I'd know that I'd be getting something for sure.

[greghorvath]

Update: 5:20 13.06.2012

Likes: 39
Dislikes: 60

[Imsuperman2]

What about for like 20k extra credits ( or more) we could have the option to re-roll what wee got in the last pack?

[greghorvath]

Imsuperman2 wrote...

What about for like 20k extra credits ( or more) we could have the option to re-roll what wee got in the last pack?

I actually like that one! Could not explain why, though... What would be the exact use of this?

[greghorvath]

Dislikes are back at 59%. Likes are at 39%. Where has that 2% gone?

[greghorvath]

The original post has changed!

greghorvath wrote...

The Poll is almost at 1000 votes. That is a vital amount so do not hesitate to participate!

If you have about 5 minutes to spare, click the following link and share your opinion on the MP store system.

Thank you for participating.

______________________________________                      ___________________


In a brief exchange of messages BioWare has confirmed that for the time being they are satisfied with the store system. However, I have been mildly encouraged to continue the poll and the attempt to organize the concerns we have voiced so far.

There is no guarantee that this poll and thread will actually lead to changes in the system, but I sure can guarantee nothing is going to happen unless we ourself help it along.

______________________________________                      ___________________



IDEA COMPENDIUM

1. 

Atweak to the store, could be that when purchasing Spectre Packs with Bioware Points, they guarantee a random Untra Rare. This would give (some) people what they want (sretainty that they dont buy "nothing"), and Bioware a higher potential revenue per customer, as well as opening  the possibility of repeat transactions, if new weapons are released in the future (new ultra rare weapons and or characters, customizations, you name it).

Even with a Spectre Pack guaranteing a random Ultra Rare card when bought with points (160 of them, roughly equal to $2),  the current amount of Ultra Rare weapons would represent a potential 7 *10 * 2 = $140 worth of packs. I highly doubt that people, who spend money in the store, on an average are spending more than that before they relize what is going on. (by courtesy of ABjerre)

2.

The store system would be vastly improved, and I would be tempted to spend real money on it, if there was a guarantee that you would always unlock something that you did not yet have unlocked - i.e. no more character cards when you've already unlocked every appearance option for that class. Keep the distribution of rarity as it is in each pack, and if you've already unlocked everything at the rarity for which your 3rd, 4th, or 5th item is supposed to be, award equipment instead.

E.g.- let's say that you buy a Recruit pack. The pool of common cards are the II-X upgrades for the five starting weapons, the I-V upgrades for the 13 common weapon mods, and the 3 appearance options for each human character for 146 unlocks total. After all of those options are unlocked, if you buy a pack that is supposed to include a common card, instead of re-awarding a character card with XP, award a "common" level of equipment instead - i.e. one consumable or one level I ammo/rail arm/armor equipment.

The same rules could easily apply to uncommons & rares as well. Uncommons would be 3 consumables/level II equipment and rares would be 5 consumables/level III equipment. This will ensure a smooth progression through Recruit->Veteran->Spectre packs and keep people buying & playing even after they get good gear due to the fact that the chances for an ultra-rare are still low, but it would prevent the rage from buying pack after pack just to keep getting useless XP - at least those players will be getting *something* and have significant amounts of high-level equipment to play around with (by courtesy of twxabfn)

3.

I think a better idea would be to offer an initial N7 weapon at a fixed price, similar to how some N7 weapons were offered in the single player.The price would be significantly higher than the cost of buying 10 PSP's due to the guarantee and ability to choose which weapon you were buying. Off the top of my head, I think 10 million might be too high and 2 million would be too low. I think 2.5 million would be acceptable to most people, though I personally feel it should be a bit higher, maybe 3 or 4 million. (editor's note: price suggestion due later)
Now this pack only can be used once for each N7 weapon, and will give you a level 1 weapon. In truth, it will not help people who have already got their weapon of choice and are looking to upgrade said weapon. It will help people who have not got their favorite weapon such as a BW or whatever else a person might want. Any further upgrades would be left with the RNG and the normal store system. (by courtesy of ismadiis)

4.

Make getting awards for certain things a little more rewarding, this could tie in with the store. In example, if someone got 25 headshot kills in 5 conscecutive matches, then they might be rewarded with a voucher for a veteran pack, or even be given a choice of weapon upgrade after the mission. (by courtesy of @LD_Dragon)

5.

To both expand game play, pad packs, and keep the money rolling what Bioware needs is to stop production on playable characters and weapon DLCs for the momment and create a system that allows the players to place modifications on those same files. Openning up a new a wider category of unlock/consumables that change enemy spawn rates, strenghts, composition, etc. Building the UI and setting up how these different elements will interact is no simple, but will add an element of chaos and unpredictability to a rather static game currently. Essentially it becomes a sanction way to tweek and generate custome game types within the current structure. (by courtesy of Dorje Sylas)

6.

2. Cap the number of non UR packs you can receive in a row
3. Award a UR for every 500 levels of N7 (this would encourage promoting and you wouldn't mind training so much) (by courtesy of Kai Peng)

7.

PSP should start at 1% chance to get ur. Every pack you buy raises this chance by 1%. When you get an UR. it resets. This way you can still have good luck, but if your luck sucks, you at least know you will eventually get one by default. (by courtesy of xtorma)

8.

"Research Project" concept:
It takes a certain amount of EXP to unlock the ability to purchase the weapon, and then it takes a set amount of credits to buy it too.

Weapons and equipment would scale with rarity and level. A level 1 Uncommon would not require nearly as much exp & credits to buy as a level 10 Ultra-Rare obviously...

For example:
I set the Saber IX as my research project. I need to get 1,500,000 personal experience (Only counting your score,
not the whole team's) from games before it becomes available.

After I get the 1,500,000 personal experience I now have to pay to have it produced or shipped or whatever you want to call it. It costs $350,000-500,000 since it is an Ultra-Rare.

We still have to play a ton of matches to unlock stuff, but we can actually get the weapons we want! (At the cost of about 10 matches or around 3~ hours or so.)

Our Manifest could show what we were researching and maybe have a "Queue" where we could add multiple items to work towards. (by courtesy of Drummernate)

Modifié par greghorvath, 13 juin 2012 - 02:20 .

[greghorvath]

Only 44 more votes need to get to 1000!

[greghorvath]

36 more needed

[greghorvath]

23 to go.

Likes: 40
Dislikes: 59

[greghorvath]

Bumping for the last 14 votes!

[ABjerre]

Shameless bump for the most persistant effort ever recorded on BSN. Hope you get it up (to over 1000 votes), that would be great!

[greghorvath]

Holy ****.... We made it... I'm just going to have to draw conclusions after I get my thoughts together. 1015 votes atm...

[greghorvath]

I like the random drop store system. 8%(79 votes) 
I like the random drop store system and have spent real money on packs. 5%(52 votes)
I do not like the random drop store system. 9%(89 votes)
I do not like the random drop store system, but I have spent real money on packs. 6%(60 votes)
Option 1 + but I would never spend real money in an in game store. 12%(121 votes)
Option 3 + and I would never spend real money in an in game store. 11%(111 votes)
Option 1 or 2 + but I would prefer a system where I knew what I was buying. 10%(106 votes)
Option 3 or 4 + and I would prefer a system where I knew what I was buying. 18%(185 votes)
Option 1 or 2 + I would probably spend (more) real money in a system where I knew that I was buying. 6%(56 votes)
Option 3 or 4 + but I would probably spend (more) real money in a system where I knew what I was buying. 16%(159 votes)

This was the poll situation at 15:14 CET on 15.06.2012. With 1018 votes, the poll was 92nd most voted poll on the BSN at the time.

First, I want to thank everyone that took a little time to vote and thank those even more that commented and posted in the idea compendium thread.

A special thanks goes out to ThinLizzy92, who went as far as to include a link to the poll in her signature! A big thanks to ABjerre, Stinja and Ismadiis, who helped with regular bumps.  

Second, I have to say that I am not unreservedly happy. It took the community nearly 2 months to reach 1000 votes, which is rather pathetic in the light of the intensity of emotions towards the store, and the fact that the ending debate generated tens of thousands of votes in several polls in less time. More importantly it generated an organised cooperation and unified effort from thousands of people in and out of the BSN. I wasn’t expecting a movement of this magnitude, but to tell the truth I was expecting a certain extent of focus and at least some help from like-minded gamers. There was neither. This may be caused by several things from my personal lack of  appeal, through the complicated nature of the poll, to just a simple lack of community interest. I will not try to find the actual cause for this because, to be frank, I do not feel it is worth my time.

On an even more personal note, I am done with being an active forumite. It makes me very sad that people have so misunderstood the name of this site and actually did turn it into the BS Network. The poll will not be closed for the time being but I will not be making updates here and will not monitor the poll any longer.

I will send Bioware QA the results and will let them decide what they do with the information. I am no longer dedicating any more of my time to this issue. If anyone wishes to take this task upon themselves, they are free to use this thread and poll data as they wish (i.e. if you want some change in the poll intro or in this thread: send me a message).

With that said, I will now make a few assumptions and statements based on the data above. Those that would wish to note things like "the BSN represents only a small fraction of MP gamers" will kindly refrain from doing so as the sample size is large enough to be considered representative.

The results pretty much speak for themselves. 41% likes or sort of likes the store and (for the sake of 100%) 59% percent wants it to change. This can be categorised as an EPIC FAIL. A product that is disliked by 59% of customers is not something any supplier can be happy with.

The fail proportions are just staggering if we take into account the fact that only 25% of people have stated they like store period. 75% percent wants some sort of a change. This is definitely not something to be satisfied with.

In earlier breakdowns I have given some assumptions regarding the money making potential increase of a possible store change, so I will not repeat these, those interested can just look them up.

The conclusion is very simple: if BioWare has any interest in keeping up the illusion that they listen to their fans, the store issue will have to be addressed in a radical way. A way that will have to be found or at least helped along by someone else than me.

greg out

Modifié par greghorvath, 15 juin 2012 - 02:14 .

[Qeylis]

Congratulations Greg.

While I oppose your poll because it does not seem to contain what I want, I am glad that so many people have voiced their displeasure with the current store system.

Thank you for your effort to raise awareness of this important issue.

[himegoto]

I like a system where I know what I am buying. Like how it is in real life.
But doubt anything is going to change especially with EA.

[RoZh2400]

Congrats on the 1000, Greg.

One thing that bugs me, as someone who has a small background in statistics, is that you claim to have finally reached "representative sample size". Reaching an arbitrary number doesn't mean you produced a representative sample. A large sample size doesn't give representative sample size, it only gives a standard normal distribution. Hell, even just 25 people can be representative, if chosen very carefully (although that wouldn't be random, but then again, polls never have true random sampling either)
Think about it this way. those who are active or comment or even voted on this are the minority. If you care, you will do something (post/comment/vote/etc). If you don't give a damn, you probably won't do any of that. The BSN represents the thousands of players who have, on average, stronger opinions about this stuff than those who don't bother with the BSN. This isn't just random conjecture, it's called "voluntary response bias". They might also have a systematic difference in opinions about things, such as the store. If you really want a representative sample, get BioWare to make a mandatory poll given to ~10% of the population. OR even better, 100% of players. i.e. answer the damn question or no multiplayer (which really isn't that much of a hassle)

TL;DR: Most people who play ME3 MP do not bother with BSN. Those who don't bother with BSN may not like/hate the store strongly enough to get on the BSN and discuss their likes/hates. Therefore, this poll doesn't take into account a possibly HUGE bias in response.

[rmccowen]

RoZh2400 wrote...

One thing that bugs me, as someone who has a small background in statistics, is that you claim to have finally reached "representative sample size". Reaching an arbitrary number doesn't mean you produced a representative sample...

...This isn't just random conjecture, it's called "voluntary response bias". They might also have a systematic difference in opinions about things, such as the store.

This, if you replace "might" with "almost certainly do".

This thread got my attention because of the change to the title. Claiming that a sample is representative is a very high bar to clear, and this poll simply can't get there. What are the characteristics of the respondents? How different is the sample from the population of interest? What variables predict whether a member of the population will self-select into the sample? For that matter, what exactly is the population? (That is, what is the sample representative of?) How big is it? Who belongs to it--and who is excluded?

And this is a sample, which means there are additional questions that should be answered. How is your sampling frame justified by your question? What bound are you placing on the error of estimation, and why? What is the estimated distribution of the population on each construct of interest, and how did you get that estimate? 

It's obvious that this effort is important to the OP, and getting 1000 forum members to do anything in particular is interesting and impressive achievement. But If you can't answer any of those questions, then you simply can't make a valid claim that the sample is representative.

[Stinja]

Regardless of the validity or poll options or other concerns, I'd also like to thank Greg for spending hs spare time highlighting this topic.  Of course he wont see this if he's already gone, but the effort spent is appreciated.

As my manifest is now filling I have different issues with the store when starting:  then it was trying to get the guns I wanted to synergize with the classes I liked, now I see too little return.  An evenings time obtaining credits, while fun and entertaining, will 99% of the time have no real reward in terms of obtaining guns or gear which are useful.  Obviously you mostly get nothing (ie character cards when maxed), but when you do get something, it's is likely to be something unneeded.

Increasing the rank of a super rifle I never use is not inspiring, or when I do get an Ultra Rare gun, it's never been one I actually want.  This also is demotivating.
Im not suggesting a solution, but every person I know who's stopped playing ME3 cites the store system as a large factor in their decision.  Make of that as you will.

Modifié par Stinja, 16 juin 2012 - 10:05 .

[Falcyn]

"People who visit BSN" is a very distinct (and tiny) subset of ME3 players, with "people who post on BSN" an even more distinct one. That does not mean they're representative of the player community as a whole -- they aren't, because they've chosen to visit BSN while most players don't. So, even if literally every single user of BSN voted, your sample group would be too homogenous. That's why the number of people that voted is ultimately irrelevant.

I suspect you'd get a much better reception if you simply said "I took a poll of 1000 BSN users. That's a pretty good number of people, and I think the results mean something. Here they are..." rather than trying to mislead people into thinking you've done something scientific when you haven't.

Modifié par Falcyn, 16 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[Qeylis]

Wow, would you look at all these statisticians. It is true that this wasn't a scientific poll. He may have misused the term Representative Sample Size. However, he did prove that there is an attitude of dislike or even hate against the store among a very large group of BioWare fans.

While it is true the vast majority of Mass Effect players are unlikely to join a poll, how many times have you been in a public game and heard, "the store ripped me off again." I've heard it more times than I can say. Anyone who hasn't heard it is either a liar, doesn't play public, or doesn't play at all.

Those people that are upset enough to have a negative impression about the store (and by extension, BioWare/EA), but are not upset enough to post or poll on BSN are represented by this large poll, regardless of whether scientific methods were used to collect the data or not.

Lets use some common sense here, people. Are people happy when the get nothing in their packs? Probably not. Do they like maxed out Character Cards when they haven't even unlocked all their characters or character options? Unlikely. Would they prefer a system where they knew that they would get something good for their three bucks or 99,000 credits? Of course they would.

Therefore, what Greg's poll shows is an underlying sense of anger in BioWare's most loyal fans. These fans reflect the community attitude as a whole, just in a more passionate way. We are the fans that are willing to stand up and try to fix the broken system. The other fans that do not come to BSN to voice their concern with the horribly broken store either post on another board, or simply quit.

Therefore, this poll may not fit the scientific definition of Representative Sample. But it does represent, none the less.

[rmccowen]

Qeylis wrote...

...He may have misused the term Representative Sample Size.

Yes, he did, in a way that demonstrates that neither he nor you understand the concept behind the term.

However, he did prove that there is an attitude of dislike or even hate against the store among a very large group of BioWare fans.

No, he didn't. As I've said several times on BSN in the last few weeks, apparently around here the word "prove" really means "claim".

Those people that are upset enough to have a negative impression about the store (and by extension, BioWare/EA), but are not upset enough to post or poll on BSN are represented by this large poll, regardless of whether scientific methods were used to collect the data or not.

My emphasis. This is exactly the problem: the poll represents the opinions of everyone who took the poll--and that's it. It's likely that those who are motivated enough to both participate in BSN and participate in the poll are, in fact, very different from those who aren't--meaning the poll doesn't represent any larger population.

We are the fans that are willing to stand up and try to fix the broken system. The other fans that do not come to BSN to voice their concern with the horribly broken store either post on another board, or simply quit.

You're claiming that there are people who are so annoyed with the store that they actually quit the game. What's your evidence?

Therefore, this poll may not fit the scientific definition of Representative Sample. But it does represent, none the less.

The poll doesn't represent anything. That's the whole point.

Let me put it this way. There are two fundamental questions that underly validity in a sample: is the sample group different from the population? Of those people in the sample, are those who respond different from those that do not? This poll simply can't answer either question, and therefore it isn't evidence for anything at all. The only reason I'm even posting here is that I hope no one from BioWare sees the poll and decides to draw any meaningful conclusion from it--because that would be a mistake.

Modifié par rmccowen, 16 juin 2012 - 02:07 .

[Qeylis]

@rmccowen

Please, feel free to run a scientific poll on this subject. I promise you, the results will be similar. Until then, this is evidence of an underlying problem. Prove that this poll is wrong. Prove that this poll does not represent the community as a whole. PROVE IT!

When it comes to your question as to where is my evidence about people quitting because of the store. I had many friends playing. I message them to play ME3. Most of them say they are never going to play again. I ask why, more than half say the store trolls. The rest say bugs. These are people that don't come to BSN. People that don't care enough about the game to go to polls.  Edit: I've had to make new friends because of this problem.

This poll is a sample of the most ardent fans. The ones that love the game, and won't give up easily. It may have a high margin of error, but it is representative whether you want to believe it or not. We could go on with "no it doesn't, yes it does" forever. It won't make you any less wrong.

If this many people feel this strongly about the broken store, then BioWare/EA has a problem. They don't want this many people to feel negative feelings about them. We are the majority.

Modifié par Qeylis, 16 juin 2012 - 03:48 .

[greghorvath]

@RoZh2400: Well, I may have been a bit liberal with the usage of the term "representative"... But you will note I never actually said the poll is representative, only that the size of it may be considered such. A bit of artistic license, I admit.

@rmccowen: Thanks for your guidance, kind Sir! The light that you shine is ever so needed to show us the error of our ways!
You fit right in here on the BS Network. pfffft

And to those concerned: I never said I was leaving the forums (addictions die hard...), only that I will not be active. To me those are very different.

Modifié par greghorvath, 16 juin 2012 - 04:31 .

[rmccowen]

Qeylis wrote...

@rmccowen

Please, feel free to run a scientific poll on this subject. I promise you, the results will be similar. Until then, this is evidence of an underlying problem. Prove that this poll is wrong. Prove that this poll does not represent the community as a whole. PROVE IT!

I've been sitting in front of my computer for about ten minutes, dumbfounded and not sure what to write. greghorvath says he's taken a representative poll, and the results "speak for themselves". In fact, he says:

greghorvath wrote...

Those that would wish to note things like "the BSN represents only a small fraction of MP gamers" will kindly refrain from doing so as the sample size is large enough to be considered representative.

Those statements are, frankly, ridiculous. It's like a kid claiming he asked everybody he knows at school and most of them think root beer is better than Coke, so he's writing a letter to Coca-Cola's QA department telling them to make Coke taste more like root beer.

And when I tell the kid that he's being silly, that asking all your friends isn't how you go about demonstrating something like that, his friend comes up and yells, "Oh yeah? Prove that my friends aren't the same as every person who drinks Coke in the whole world. PROVE IT!"

This poll is a sample of the most ardent fans. The ones that love the game, and won't give up easily.

That's the problem: you've just described a group of people that are different from other ME3 players, in a way that likely affects their answers.

It may have a high margin of error, but it is representative whether you want to believe it or not.

I guess I'm not being clear. It's not a question about the margin of error; you can't even start to calculate the error of estimation because you don't know anything about the population and you don't know anything about the sample. The poll is interesting, in that it demonstrates that there are is a large number of people who feel strongly about the store, and many of them don't like it.

But as evidence about the opinions of all ME3 players--as a representative sample, which is how both the thread title and you are describing it--it's meaningless. The group of people who answered the poll is a convenience sample, and literally the first thing anyone ever learns about sampling is that you cannot draw valid conclusions about a population based on a convenience sample. 

We could go on with "no it doesn't, yes it does" forever. It won't make you any less wrong.

I'm glad you're passionate about this subject, and I'm glad there are people who care enough about this game to try to make it better; I really am. But on this particular subject, you really have no idea what you're talking about. What you're doing is appropriating language you don't understand to bolster the case you believe you're making, and that's professionally offensive to me. Feel free to keep shouting "yes it does!" forever; it won't make you any more right, and I've said enough to (hopefully) demonstrate that generalizing from this poll is a bad idea.

Modifié par rmccowen, 16 juin 2012 - 04:53 .