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MP store poll and idea compendium


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#126
ismadiis

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 Hi Greg, I thought I might as share my 2 cents on this issue.
I have listed some points in a random order that may hopefully bring a fresh perspective to the issue.
I'm no expert in economics, but from what I can see, the endless character cards are a way to keep giving something to people buying packs once they max most weapons. You could replace the character cards with equipment, but at a certain point people would be having much more equipment then the realistically need. Someone more knowledgeable then me might be able to better understand and explain it, but I see the character cards like a kind of "filler" in the sense that Bioware can keep on giving them in infinite amounts without severely affecting a players abilities (i.e. equipment makes a player better or more powerful, character cards only increase levels, something a person can do without buying packs).
Personally I am not extremely angry or annoyed with the store system. Before someone says I don't know what it is like when you max out the rares, I have maxed out my rares, uncommons and commons, feel free to check my manifest. I do understand why some people would be frustrated by the low drop rates of even the PSPs. I currently am content with my Ultra Rare weapons, though obviously I want to continue upgrading them at a reasonable rate.
Greg, what do you think about people leaving the game, either because they are not getting the weapons they want, or people leaving once they max out their weapons? I hear the argument that people get tired of not getting the weapons they want fast enough and then leaving.
IMHO if your primary motivation is to accumulate weapons to the highest level, and if this desire is so strong you would stop playing because you are not getting the weapons fast enough, would a person really continue to play for much longer after you theoretically manage to get all weapons to X? I do not think so. I had a friend who got a BW X. He stopped playing a couple of weeks ago and I have not seen him since. I do not mean to say that everyone who gets X weapons would quit, but I think the majority of people would stop playing. Therefore if these people decide to leave now because they aren't getting ultra rares fast enough, is it truly a loss since they would have left anyways once they had maxed out their weapons?
You may ask what then should people play for? I can't speak for everyone else, but I enjoy using different characters and different builds. This is my primary motivation for playing and I have fun doing so. I think this will keep me playing for longer than a lot of people who's primary motivation is weapon collection, but this is just my opinion.

I also feel that while as a gamer, I find certain elements about the store frustrating, the business thinking side of me understands a lot of the decisions that Bioware has made. They have a responsibility to their shareholders or in the case of Bioware their parent company, EA, to make a profit. Some of their decisons, such as the RNG, and offering packs for cash are simply good business decisions, and I do not think there is anything wrong with them. I think it is good that you acknowledge that Bioware has to look at ways to make money and that any solution must take this into account. Lest we forget, Bioware is not a charity or a public service organization. It is a business and sometimes business decisions have to be made that consumers don't like.

I do not believe that there should be a way to guarantee N7 upgrades. This would make it too easy for people to reach X weapons quickly, and as I said above would result in people leaving the game in substantial numbers. While you may disagree, I think it is telling that so many people are happy with this solution. I think that is a sign that the solution is too favorable to us the gamers and it probably isn't going to be a good solution for Bioware. After hearing how people can save huge amounts of credits, I think it is clear this solution of guaranteeing weapons for a fixed amount would not be good for the games longevity unless the amount of credits were reasonably high, such as 2 million, but then since PSP's drop N7s at an unofficial rate of around 9-10%, would it be worth it to spend 2 million for a guaranteed level when odds seem to favor buying 20 PSPs. The drop rate figure I remember from another forum post, but I won't argue if someone else has a better source. Also do are you suggesting that you can choose which N7 weapon gets a level or would be at random? I think it would be unbalanced to allow people to choose and that the random option is the only viable solution.

I also do not think their should be a guarantee of a N7 weapons for cash either. Unless it is going to work out to something like $5 USD for an N7 level. Even then how many people would spend $50 to get 10 N7 weapon level upgrades, especially if it is at random. Again I don't think it should be possible for people to pick which weapon they want to upgrage due to issues of game longevity. I think there are too many issues about price and balance between people using credits and people using cash to get a realistic solution involving cash for guaranteed N7 packs.

I think a better idea would be to offer an initial N7 weapon at a fixed price, similar to how some N7 weapons were offered in the single player. The price would be significantly higher than the cost of buying 10 PSP's due to the guarantee and ability to choose which weapon you were buying. Off the top of my head, I think 10 million might be too high and 2million would be too low. I think 2.5 million would be acceptable to most people, though I personally feel it should be a bit higher, maybe 3 or 4 million.

Now this pack only can be used once for each N7 weapon, and will give you a level 1 weapon. In truth, it will not help people who have already got their weapon of choice and are looking to upgrade said weapon. It will help people who have not got their favorite weapon such as a BW or whatever else a person might want. Any further upgrades would be left with the RNG and the normal store system.

The reason I don't think upgrades should be made so easy, is because in my opinion, while some of the N7 weapons are underpowered when compared to their level X rare counterparts, generally once you get an N7 to about level 3 or 4 you can feel the benefits of an N7. One weapon that seems to do badly in comparisons is the Paladin vs the Carnifex. However I think the benefit of a BW can be felt at level 1, since it is the only sniper rifle besides the valiant that has multiple shots with a high level of damage. Personally I use my BW 1 and I find it effective enough. I hope to get it higher, but if it takes a month to get it up two levels then thats fine to me since I use other weapons as well and have just as much fun.

As far as N7 upgrades go, unfortunately I don't see many ideas that can be done in terms of drastic solutions being put in place. I think there could be some minor changes that might alleviate the anger such as giving more equipment like amps, armor and ammo if you don't get an N7. Maybe percentages could be weighted so that it is easier to get N7's to level 5 and more difficult to get them from 5-10. Maybe making it so that subsequent promotions increase drop rates (before I get slaughtered, this is only a suggestion, the idea being that if you get lots of character cards, you can promote easily, and then your chances of getting an N7 weapon improve. I don't want to start a debate about N7 rankings and promotions and what not).

I think the idea of an N7 pack, that upgrades a random N7 weapon, for more than 2.5million credits seems like a decent balance. I think it must be a random upgrade to preserve longevity. Though I would ask how much would this pack cost in cash, or if it should even be made available for cash. I don't think making it available for cash is fair though. Better to make people play and earn credits instead of just swiping a credit card to get a bunch of new weapons, but thats just my thought. Personally I would not pay cash for an N7 upgrade, I would play, save and use credits.

A few last thoughts about your poll. I voted in it, can't remember which one, but I know i did choose somthing that liked the system. I think most of the people who vote in it will be people who don't like the system and want change, meaning people who are motivated to do something. I think there could be a case of a silent majority, who do not feel the need to vote in a poll that is calling for changes in the store system since they are fine with the current system. I applaud your iniative in creating the poll and marketing yourself, but i'm not convinced the data is useful considering there must be at least a million multiplayer players across the different platforms.

EDIT: Sorry this is so long, I started writing and it just kept going and going.

Modifié par ismadiis, 05 mai 2012 - 01:27 .


#127
greghorvath

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I have got to friend you. You have a brain and you use it, rare combination. :D

I will be addressing your post a bit later when I get my comp back into shape. It will be very close in time to when I send my friend request...

Modifié par greghorvath, 05 mai 2012 - 01:53 .


#128
ismadiis

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greghorvath wrote...

I have got to friend you. You have a brain and you use it, rare combination. :D

I will be addressing your post a bit later when I get my comp back into shape. It will be very close in time to when I send my friend request...


Lol, thanks

#129
VVereVVulf

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Make respec cards available at the store.

Having to play silver/bronze because you're trying out a new build is a pain in the ***.
Levelling isn't fun.

Modifié par VVereVVulf, 05 mai 2012 - 02:18 .


#130
ismadiis

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VVereVVulf wrote...

Make respec cards available at the store.

Having to play silver/bronze because you're trying out a new build is a pain in the ***.
Levelling isn't fun.


I think a bit more clarity might be helpful.

Respec cards are available in the store. They drop as rares, meaning a gold border around the sides. You can get them in Veteran, Spectre and Premium Spectre Packs at the moment. However your chances of getting any Rare item in a veteran pack is quite low, so Spectres and Premium Spectres are the way to go if you do want one.

If you are suggesting to make them available to purchase for a fixed amount, i'm not sure how to respond to that. I see from your manifest that you are a relatively new player. Personally I have not had any real issue with not having respec cards since I have maxed rares and usually only get respec and character cards. But I think once you start playing Gold regularly and spending the credits from that, you will find getting respec cards not a problem.

Also quick tip, you can only have a max of 3 respec cards.

#131
mrcanada

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2.5 million is too much. I suggested a million for an N7 pack which equates to about a full week of average play. Using math, that is almost a full year of playing every week for the average person to finish their N7's. For grinders, you are still looking at a couple months and that is playing a lot every week. This is more than fair and the pack has to offer a random upgrade with a normal chance of a second like the Spectre packs.

People seem to think getting a million credits is easy.  It really isn't.  

Modifié par mrcanada, 05 mai 2012 - 03:13 .


#132
VVereVVulf

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ismadiis wrote...

VVereVVulf wrote...

Make respec cards available at the store.

Having to play silver/bronze because you're trying out a new build is a pain in the ***.
Levelling isn't fun.


I think a bit more clarity might be helpful.

Respec cards are available in the store. They drop as rares, meaning a gold border around the sides. You can get them in Veteran, Spectre and Premium Spectre Packs at the moment. However your chances of getting any Rare item in a veteran pack is quite low, so Spectres and Premium Spectres are the way to go if you do want one.

If you are suggesting to make them available to purchase for a fixed amount, i'm not sure how to respond to that. I see from your manifest that you are a relatively new player. Personally I have not had any real issue with not having respec cards since I have maxed rares and usually only get respec and character cards. But I think once you start playing Gold regularly and spending the credits from that, you will find getting respec cards not a problem.

Also quick tip, you can only have a max of 3 respec cards.


What i meant was making them available seperately at the store for a fixed amount.
Buying packs to eventually get a respec card is just dumb and time consuming.
I never farm credits and I only play for fun.

Also, I'm frequently soloing gold and i never play silver/bronze unless i have to level up a character.

#133
greghorvath

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@ismadiis
If this was your two cents, I'm glad you didn't go for the whole dollar... :o
Length don't scare me none though: I wrote an MA thesis on how the Kalevala influenced Tolkien's imginary world, and your writing was electrifying compared to The Silmarillion...

So:

  Hi Greg,

Hi, mate!

the endless character cards are a way to keep giving something to people buying packs once they max most weapons.

True, but even people with rare weapons not maxed get character cards to their lvl 20, maximum customization classes.

people would be having much more equipment then the realistically need.

hmmm This never bothered the devs who though of ops survival packs and thermal clips. With all the connection issues (And my personal problem of crashing all the time) I lose 1/3 equipment without actually having had any benefit. But even if I have a gargantuan stock of lvl 1 disruptor ammo, I'm going to be much less irritated by that than getting the 100th drell adept. A class I don't even use, let alone customize. The "filler nature" of the character cards needs no explaining, but along the lines of your reasoning I think it would be better to replace them with cards saying: "Better luck next time". I am completely serious when I say I would be less annoyed by that...

To your point about not being annoyed by the current system, I can only say that there is nothing wrong with that. One of the best players I know and regularly play with does not have anything against the system and I just love the guy... He says the store is working as intended and that is fine. I accept his view, even though I do not share it.

Greg, what do you think about people leaving the game, either because they are not getting the weapons they want, or people leaving once they max out their weapons?

As I have said it before, for me personally its not about unlocking or maxing something out, but about playing with what I like. I played the SP as an inflitrator using the saber most of the time. In MP, I have no chance of using the weapon I like because of a stupid system that irritates most people I know. I have unlocked most weapons I wanted and am not interested in maxing out N7s. But there are lots of people with lots of different views, some people solely playing to max out their weapons. I have no problem with that, and the poll was started to find out what the community thinks.

However, friends on my list play (all of them adults), after having unlocked most, play, myself included, because we like it (something like what you yourself wrote). We have consumer value (a.k.a. money) and most of us would spend if the store wasn't just a bad form of the lottery.

Therefore if these people decide to leave now because they aren't getting ultra rares fast enough, is it truly a loss since they would have left anyways once they had maxed out their weapons?

I don't think its not getting what you want that gets people to quit, but the frustration of getting crap instead of what you want. The ones leaving just because of a childish temper are better gone anyway. This is a coop game where a certain level of maturity is necessary.

*part on the business aspect*

There is nothing wrong with this being a business. But according to the poll results (see my breakdown earlier) and the opinion of an economist (ABjerre), with certain adjustments in favour of the paying public BW/EA would be making more moeny. Significantly more.
 

*guaranteed N7*

While I value your opinion, I do not agree. I just don't. I would support a random system for in game credits and guaranteed unlocks (even random) for real money (5 bucks is fine with me. even 10). It works for free to play games, although with a game you have to pay for might mess up the equation (opinions?!)

*your tweak*

Has earned a place in the op. will include soon.

*poll opinion*

I agree with you. The poll was initiated to gather information. If that information will turn out unfavourable "to my cause" (lol. I feel like a retaker...NO. Seriously. NO), I will admit it and be quiet. At the moment, the majority of participants wants a change. Unfortunately, the sample represents such a small portion of the community, that the data is for the time being, sadly, rather useless. There are many people simply not reacting, but the reason why I do not just shut down (just yet) is that there are several new threads on the subject, getting bumped several times, and I am trying to do some organizing. I will just have to see if is of any use....

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

P.S. Friend request is on the way.

Modifié par greghorvath, 05 mai 2012 - 05:34 .


#134
ismadiis

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mrcanada wrote...

2.5 million is too much. I suggested a million for an N7 pack which equates to about a full week of average play. Using math, that is almost a full year of playing every week for the average person to finish their N7's. For grinders, you are still looking at a couple months and that is playing a lot every week. This is more than fair and the pack has to offer a random upgrade with a normal chance of a second like the Spectre packs.

People seem to think getting a million credits is easy.  It really isn't.  


EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to read that I made a suggestion for an N7 pack at 2.5m. In hindsight, you are right and 2.5mil is probably too much for a random upgrade. Your suggestion of 1mil is better, so long as the N7 weapon upgraded is random. However i think there are some other issues, mainly to do with lost revenue from having no cash sales of this pack, or the fact that it is actually difficult to price this pack fairly in terms of cash price. I will go into this price issue in further detail in the next post.

I've left the math for anyone that wants to see it. 


The 2.5 million suggestion was for an initial purchase only. The idea was similar to the single player system for a weapon like the Black Widow. A player could pay the high fixed amount and get the weapon at level 1. Subsequent upgrades would be through another method. The idea was that having the N7, even at level 1 is better than not having it at all. For example the BW is still an effective weapon on gold even at level 1, at least in my experience.

I've done some math for the hours taken to get your pack at 1 million.

Assuming you only play gold and get at least 70k a game it takes you 14.2 games to get 1 million. Lets round it up to 15 games to get 1 million credits. If one gold game takes you say 30mins, your looking at 7 and a half hours to make 1 million. If you farm FBWGG (Avg 24mins)  it would take you 6 hours or less depending on your team.

Now while some players would find it difficult to play 7 hours in a week, I think a large amount would be able to do 6 hours over five weekdays, and maybe another 6 hours over the weekend. People who can play for much longer in a week could easily get at least 4 million in a week if they have time to spare.

There are 7 Ultra Rare Weapons. At 1 million a pack, you need 70 million to fully upgrade all Ultra Rares. Based on a time of 7.5hrs/million, it would take 525 hours to make 70 million or roughly 22 days of non stop gaming. Personally i'm not too sure about whether that is too much time or a reasonable amount, so i'll leave it to someone else to make a judgement.

I am currently favoring making it easier to get N7's to level V and either leaving the difficulty at the same for V to X, or making it slightly difficult. This way more people can get their N7's to V, which makes them powerful enough to be better than most Rares, but still keeping it difficult for people to get to X so that the people who want to get everything to the max have a challenge. But that's just my opinion.

Modifié par ismadiis, 05 mai 2012 - 07:57 .


#135
ismadiis

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 @ Greg

I agree with you about getting "Better luck next time" rather not getting character cards. In truth it is like entering a lottery, but in this case its the case that people have to enter so many times before winning that seems to be the problem. I suppose the ideal solution is to offer a pack at a higher cost and with better chances of an N7, i.e. the N7 pack. This way a person won't experience the feeling of not getting an N7 so many times in a row (i.e the cases of 20 PSPs, no N7s) and instead spend big and get the one upgrade they want.

Out of curiosity do you promote? I used to promote a lot, but now i've slowed down a bit. I'm thinking of saving up, and then promoting and buying packs. Might as well get something out of all those character cards, Lol.

While i'm not annoyed by the system, I do think it can be improved. Unfortunately i'm not sure what is the best way to go about improving it.

I see you want a Saber for you infiltrator. What do you think about paying a fixed amount for getting an N7 at level 1, an idea similar to how you have to purchase a BW in the single player? I suggested 2.5 million for the price, but in hindsight maybe a lower figure would be better for an initial purchase. The rationale being to let people at least have their favorite weapon at level 1.

After doing a bit of thinking, I realized that for a solution to work for guaranteed N7s, it has to include a cash option, something you mentioned in your reply. In fact I agree that maybe such a pack should not have a in game credit option. The reason being if there was a in game credit option, Bioware would risk losing revenue to people who would just play and not spend real cash. I think the only problem would be how the pack would work and the price it would be sold at.

How the pack would work? (i.e. Random or not Random)
I'm thinking it would be a random N7 weapon, in the sense you can't choose which weapon you upgrade. However it is guaranteed that one of the 7 Ultra Rares will be upgraded. The odds would be in your favor (Hunger Games reference, by accident) to get your chosen weapon within a few packs. I suppose you could allow people to choose which weapon to get, and it could lead to more people buying packs for cash though it could also lead to less packs being bought since people might only buy packs for one weapon. I guess this could go either way and in truth isn't as big issue as the one below.

Price
First some numbers.
I believe it is roughly $2 USD for one spectre pack and $3 USD for one Premium Spectre pack. In theory a price of $5 for an N7 weapon, while acceptable in my opinion, is severely undervalued by Bioware's standards. Unless a balance for the price in cash can be struck between being reasonable and matching the prices already set for other packs, I don't see how a solution could realistically take place. This is why I believed the pack should not be made available for cash, because of the issue with pricing. Maybe 10 bucks would work, even though it is roughly 3 PSPs. But then would people be willing to spend an additional 10 bucks for one level of an N7 weapon. Maybe if they could choose the weapon. But considering most people paid around 60 to 80 dollars for the game itself, i'm not too sure if many would consider spending the same on upgrading one multiplayer weapon, especially since they may rather wait to spend on a new DLC pack or maybe just buy another game.

In conclusion, I think the cash price is the most important issue facing a Guaranteed N7 pack. A reasonable cash price, could in theory give Bioware a substantial revenue considering it wouldn't take much work to develop, unlike new maps and characters, though how much that price should be, is up for debate.

I agree that you should continue your poll. Its good that there is somewhere for people to vote about this issue, whether they like the store or not. Though like we both agree, until the sample size is bigger and more diverse, the data is not as useful as it could be.

Have you tried talking to someone from Bioware about this? It would interesting to hear their thoughts, at least to get an idea of the reasoning behind the way things are at the moment.

P.S. I actually read the Silmarillion, or at least part of it. It's more like a recording of history than a story book if i remember rightly . Not as interesting as the LOTR trilogy though.

Edit: I'm flattered you put my suggestion on the op. However, after thinking it over, I don't think my second suggestion of a random N7 upgrade at 2.5 million is a good idea. I'm thinking it might need to be less since it is random, like maybe 1 million. If it is alright, could you remove the last paragraph, at least until things like the best price and whether the pack should be cash only are agreed upon? Thanks.

Modifié par ismadiis, 05 mai 2012 - 08:20 .


#136
greghorvath

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@ismadiis: Op modified and I will answer you post tomorrow cause atm I am just too tired to try to think...

Update: 05.05.2012 23.40 CET

Likes: 42
Dislikes: 58

#137
ismadiis

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@greg
No problem. I'll be away from my computer for a couple of days, i'll reply when i get back.

#138
greghorvath

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Having not updated in 19 hours is not because I have lost interest, but because I have been having computer issues. Issues I have been unable to fix so far. Very irrtating...
So...

*Better luck next time*

" Yeah, I am not going to put that in the OP, someone might take it seriously and take offence.

Out of curiosity do you promote?

N7 981 and will be 990 by the end of this levelling up cycle. I am not a promotion fanatic, but I do promote to redo builds. I have 6 reset cards left but I am stingy... :blush: And N7 might be misleading when I join a lobby: they might think I am good or something...

I see you want a Saber for you infiltrator.

I actually have it at lvl 3. But it does not perform the same way as in the SP. I swear by the mantis... And now the widow 10

What do you think about paying a fixed amount for getting an N7 at level 1

A good idea (which is why it is included in the op :), although lvl 1 N7 weapons are only good as fillers on your manifest. Rares outperform them, so they are useless compared to how difficult they are to obtain. Anyway, check out ABjerre's idea, which is close in nature to this one.

As I have you guys to do it for me, I haven't done a lot of counting. All I can say is that I would gladly pay around 10 dollars for something I like (in this case (n7 upgrades). I do not propagate in game credits for fixed N7 unlocks. It encourages grinding, which again leads to ceaselss complaining and enmity.

In conclusion, I think the cash price is the most important issue facing a Guaranteed N7 pack.

As in any question of economic nature. Suply and demand will determine the right price. A good approximation is up to the development team, I think.

I agree that you should continue your poll. Its good that there is somewhere for people to vote about this issue, whether they like the store or not. Though like we both agree, until the sample size is bigger and more diverse, the data is not as useful as it could be. Have you tried talking to someone from Bioware about this? It would
interesting to hear their thoughts, at least to get an idea of the
reasoning behind the way things are at the moment.

I will not abandon the poll for the time being. As I believe the main reason for the lack of interest is the lack of exposure, I think the only tool I have on my lonesome is patience and the occasional self-promotion I do in the form of trolling in other threads... :o And only today I finally found someone at Bioware who has a position related to this subject and he seems willing to communicate. We shall see...

P.S. I actually read the Silmarillion, or at least part of it.

My sincere condolences...

It's more like a recording of history than a story book if i remember rightly . Not as interesting as the LOTR trilogy though.

Tolkien called The Silmarillion the Legendarium. He worked on it his entire life and it is the compendium of the "legends" of Middle-Earth. I honestly find Tolkien a mediocre writer at best, but his achievements are unquestionable. I have great respect for the man and had to oppose the head of the department to write about him... :)

#139
greghorvath

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Update: 20.40 CET 06.05.2012

Likes: 43
Dislikes: 58

Modifié par greghorvath, 07 mai 2012 - 04:16 .


#140
greghorvath

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Update: 07.05.2012 18.16 CET

Situation unchanged.

#141
LD_Dragon

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Here are the suggestions I have to improve both the store and multiplayer as a whole.


1. Make getting awards for certain things a little more rewarding, this could tie in with the store. In example, if someone got 25 headshot kills in 5 conscecutive matches, then they might be rewarded with a voucher for a Veteran pack, or even be given a choice of weapon upgrade after the mission.

2. I am going to respectfully request that a choice system be put in place for the store on top of the random system. Instead of purchasing packs and leaving the results to chance, perhaps a system that we could purchase what upgrades, weapons, or equipment we desire, for an additional credit fee when buying a pack.
For example, say I buy a Spectre pack, and I want a damage upgrade for my Geth Pulse Rifle, but I get an upgrade for my Graal Spike Launcher instead. For perhaps an additional 5,000 or 10,000 credits, I could browse through a list of weapon upgrades and select my desired upgrade to my Geth Pulse Rifle. Weapons not unlocked could cost much more to unlock manually.

3. Addtionally, the choice system could apply towards character cards. The ones not unlocked could be left to chance, but those unlocked could be paid additional credits to obtain them, to unlock more appearance options and training. Some users may also wish for there to be a system to purchase classes. If that is implemented, perhaps a fair price could be put on them. For example:
Batarian Soldier: 50,000 credits
Krogan Battlemaster: 70,000 credits
Turian Soldier: 40,000 credits
etc.
And perhaps a way to shut out character cards of unlocked classes that we don't wish to have, so it can prioritize on those we do want them for. And be able to open them again once we max out the cards for the classes we want.

4. Permanent Ammo Powers. The chance to get them could be rare, but I'd highly appreciate permanent ammo powers.

Modifié par LD_Dragon, 07 mai 2012 - 05:11 .


#142
OneTrueShot

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N7 Pack. 250k. This leaves it available to casual players and those who play hard STILL have to -complete- a MINIMUM of 4 games.

Where you kids are getting 2.5m or 1m from, I don't know. Consider casual players who'd like access to these things and then get real with your pricing.

Or, better yet. One guaranteed N7 weapon every 120 N7 rank.

#143
greghorvath

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I just bought 3 PSPs. Let's just say I hope I'll have better luck next time... :?

These latest comments are worthy of a response (and inclusion in OP, but it will have to wait cause I am simply dead tired. Thanks for the comments, gimme some mo'!  :o

#144
january42

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Easy solution:

Always have the store give you something you don't have of the apropraite rarity level(i.e. charachters with maxed appearances and level 20 don't drop), but keep it random other than that.

1)You get the benefits of random system in that people don't get to pick what they want

2)You always get something you can use however. This will increase the desire of people to spend money. Spending money on PSP and getting some redundant charachter cards will teach you to never do that again.

3)Even if you randomly get what you don't want, it does get you closer to what you do want by eliminating other options. Forward progress is preserved.

4)It doesn't generate a pay-2-win system any more than we have how

5)I'm not sure it would require a patch as I think the store is server side.

Easy solution. Hope they do it.

#145
mrcanada

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ismadiis wrote...

mrcanada wrote...

2.5 million is too much. I suggested a million for an N7 pack which equates to about a full week of average play. Using math, that is almost a full year of playing every week for the average person to finish their N7's. For grinders, you are still looking at a couple months and that is playing a lot every week. This is more than fair and the pack has to offer a random upgrade with a normal chance of a second like the Spectre packs.

People seem to think getting a million credits is easy.  It really isn't.  


EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to read that I made a suggestion for an N7 pack at 2.5m. In hindsight, you are right and 2.5mil is probably too much for a random upgrade. Your suggestion of 1mil is better, so long as the N7 weapon upgraded is random. However i think there are some other issues, mainly to do with lost revenue from having no cash sales of this pack, or the fact that it is actually difficult to price this pack fairly in terms of cash price. I will go into this price issue in further detail in the next post.

I've left the math for anyone that wants to see it. 


The 2.5 million suggestion was for an initial purchase only. The idea was similar to the single player system for a weapon like the Black Widow. A player could pay the high fixed amount and get the weapon at level 1. Subsequent upgrades would be through another method. The idea was that having the N7, even at level 1 is better than not having it at all. For example the BW is still an effective weapon on gold even at level 1, at least in my experience.

I've done some math for the hours taken to get your pack at 1 million.

Assuming you only play gold and get at least 70k a game it takes you 14.2 games to get 1 million. Lets round it up to 15 games to get 1 million credits. If one gold game takes you say 30mins, your looking at 7 and a half hours to make 1 million. If you farm FBWGG (Avg 24mins)  it would take you 6 hours or less depending on your team.

Now while some players would find it difficult to play 7 hours in a week, I think a large amount would be able to do 6 hours over five weekdays, and maybe another 6 hours over the weekend. People who can play for much longer in a week could easily get at least 4 million in a week if they have time to spare.

There are 7 Ultra Rare Weapons. At 1 million a pack, you need 70 million to fully upgrade all Ultra Rares. Based on a time of 7.5hrs/million, it would take 525 hours to make 70 million or roughly 22 days of non stop gaming. Personally i'm not too sure about whether that is too much time or a reasonable amount, so i'll leave it to someone else to make a judgement.

I am currently favoring making it easier to get N7's to level V and either leaving the difficulty at the same for V to X, or making it slightly difficult. This way more people can get their N7's to V, which makes them powerful enough to be better than most Rares, but still keeping it difficult for people to get to X so that the people who want to get everything to the max have a challenge. But that's just my opinion.


Thank you for that breakdown, but you are off because there are now 8 weapons and not 7.  Even with the breakdown of 7, 22+ days of gaming to max weapons is a helluva lot of gaming man.  That would take roughly 5-6 months for the somewhat hardcore.  Who has that kind of time anyway?

At a million per, the time and cost for one random N7 and a regular chance to get another is more than fair and would not sacrifice the rarity of these weapons.  It would only give the option to the rest of us that have nothing else to gain, a guarenteed result for out time.

#146
mrcanada

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OneTrueShot wrote...

N7 Pack. 250k. This leaves it available to casual players and those who play hard STILL have to -complete- a MINIMUM of 4 games.

Where you kids are getting 2.5m or 1m from, I don't know. Consider casual players who'd like access to these things and then get real with your pricing.

Or, better yet. One guaranteed N7 weapon every 120 N7 rank.


As much as I would like it, that is much too cheap for a guarenteed N7 weapon.  The lowest I can imagine them being would be 500k.

#147
Atheosis

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I don't like any of the options in the poll. They're all too simplistic. I thoroughly enjoyed the store system up until the point I had maxed out everything but the ultra rares. At that point I started hating it, because all I ever get is character cards now. Not having an N7 pack in the store makes spending credits a miserable experience once you reach that point.

#148
ismadiis

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mrcanada wrote...

ismadiis wrote...

mrcanada wrote...

2.5 million is too much. I suggested a million for an N7 pack which equates to about a full week of average play. Using math, that is almost a full year of playing every week for the average person to finish their N7's. For grinders, you are still looking at a couple months and that is playing a lot every week. This is more than fair and the pack has to offer a random upgrade with a normal chance of a second like the Spectre packs.

People seem to think getting a million credits is easy.  It really isn't.  


EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to read that I made a suggestion for an N7 pack at 2.5m. In hindsight, you are right and 2.5mil is probably too much for a random upgrade. Your suggestion of 1mil is better, so long as the N7 weapon upgraded is random. However i think there are some other issues, mainly to do with lost revenue from having no cash sales of this pack, or the fact that it is actually difficult to price this pack fairly in terms of cash price. I will go into this price issue in further detail in the next post.

I've left the math for anyone that wants to see it. 


The 2.5 million suggestion was for an initial purchase only. The idea was similar to the single player system for a weapon like the Black Widow. A player could pay the high fixed amount and get the weapon at level 1. Subsequent upgrades would be through another method. The idea was that having the N7, even at level 1 is better than not having it at all. For example the BW is still an effective weapon on gold even at level 1, at least in my experience.

I've done some math for the hours taken to get your pack at 1 million.

Assuming you only play gold and get at least 70k a game it takes you 14.2 games to get 1 million. Lets round it up to 15 games to get 1 million credits. If one gold game takes you say 30mins, your looking at 7 and a half hours to make 1 million. If you farm FBWGG (Avg 24mins)  it would take you 6 hours or less depending on your team.

Now while some players would find it difficult to play 7 hours in a week, I think a large amount would be able to do 6 hours over five weekdays, and maybe another 6 hours over the weekend. People who can play for much longer in a week could easily get at least 4 million in a week if they have time to spare.

There are 7 Ultra Rare Weapons. At 1 million a pack, you need 70 million to fully upgrade all Ultra Rares. Based on a time of 7.5hrs/million, it would take 525 hours to make 70 million or roughly 22 days of non stop gaming. Personally i'm not too sure about whether that is too much time or a reasonable amount, so i'll leave it to someone else to make a judgement.

I am currently favoring making it easier to get N7's to level V and either leaving the difficulty at the same for V to X, or making it slightly difficult. This way more people can get their N7's to V, which makes them powerful enough to be better than most Rares, but still keeping it difficult for people to get to X so that the people who want to get everything to the max have a challenge. But that's just my opinion.


Thank you for that breakdown, but you are off because there are now 8 weapons and not 7.  Even with the breakdown of 7, 22+ days of gaming to max weapons is a helluva lot of gaming man.  That would take roughly 5-6 months for the somewhat hardcore.  Who has that kind of time anyway?

At a million per, the time and cost for one random N7 and a regular chance to get another is more than fair and would not sacrifice the rarity of these weapons.  It would only give the option to the rest of us that have nothing else to gain, a guarenteed result for out time.


Yeah, I edited my post a couple of hours later that day saying that I thought the price of 2.5 was too high and that 1 million would be better.

I agree 22+days is a lot of gaming. How long do you think it should take for a person to max the ultra rares. Personally I think anything around 3 or more months in terms of total time, meaning 3 months from when you started playing, including time when you are not playing (i.e. if you buy the game in March, you should max out the Ultra Rares by June).

I think the 1 mil, random N7 pack is probably the best solution I have heard so far. It is a reasonable price to buy and does not make it too easy to max out. The one question I would ask you is how could Bioware make money from this pack? Or if you think Bioware should make money by introducing N7 packs?

I was thinking that maybe people will use cash for other packs and save credits to use on N7 packs, though that would depend on whether people would think like that or not.

Any suggestion in how this helps BW make money would be interesting to hear.

#149
ismadiis

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LD_Dragon wrote...

Here are the suggestions I have to improve both the store and multiplayer as a whole.

  

I'm gonna just give my thoughts on your suggestions

 
1. Make getting awards for certain things a little more rewarding, this could tie in with the store. In example, if someone got 25 headshot kills in 5 conscecutive matches, then they might be rewarded with a voucher for a Veteran pack, or even be given a choice of weapon upgrade after the mission.

 

I like this idea, even though i'm not sure how much it would help with the big issues people have with the store. I think it might be better to just give a small credit sum for these awards. One problem might be that this could encourage an individual focused style of play which isn't such a good thing in a co-op game.

 

2. I am going to respectfully request that a choice system be put in place for the store on top of the random system. Instead of purchasing packs and leaving the results to chance, perhaps a system that we could purchase what upgrades, weapons, or equipment we desire, for an additional credit fee when buying a pack.
For example, say I buy a Spectre pack, and I want a damage upgrade for my Geth Pulse Rifle, but I get an upgrade for my Graal Spike Launcher instead. For perhaps an additional 5,000 or 10,000 credits, I could browse through a list of weapon upgrades and select my desired upgrade to my Geth Pulse Rifle. Weapons not unlocked could cost much more to unlock manually.


To be honest, its hard to see this idea ever coming to light. Effectively your saying that we should be able to choose which weapon to upgrade for a total cost of 70,000. Personally, I think this idea would require a complete redo of the Store system and also the way the store is balanced in terms of credits. Non-starter.

 

3. Addtionally, the choice system could apply towards character cards. The ones not unlocked could be left to chance, but those unlocked could be paid additional credits to obtain them, to unlock more appearance options and training. Some users may also wish for there to be a system to purchase classes. If that is implemented, perhaps a fair price could be put on them. For example:
Batarian Soldier: 50,000 credits
Krogan Battlemaster: 70,000 credits
Turian Soldier: 40,000 credits
etc.
And perhaps a way to shut out character cards of unlocked classes that we don't wish to have, so it can prioritize on those we do want them for. And be able to open them again once we max out the cards for the classes we want.


The idea of character cards after you unlock all the appearance options is to give you XP that can be used in promoting characters and leveling them up again. For a person who refuses to promote, the cards are useless for them. But for people who do promote, it is great to be able to save up a couple of million, promote and buy a lot of packs and get your characters back to 20. I think replacing some of the character cards with equipment could be useful, though I would still want character cards personally.

 

4. Permanent Ammo Powers. The chance to get them could be rare, but I'd highly appreciate permanent ammo powers.


Could be useful, though personally it isn't an issue for me.

#150
Dorje Sylas

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Atheosis wrote...

I don't like any of the options in the poll. They're all too simplistic. I thoroughly enjoyed the store system up until the point I had maxed out everything but the ultra rares. At that point I started hating it, because all I ever get is character cards now. Not having an N7 pack in the store makes spending credits a miserable experience once you reach that point.


Which is the trap Bioware has fallen into with the RNG. The only real thing keeping people playing (beside an illogical love and enjoyment of the buggy combat system itself) is the randomly generated unlocks.

Hey Dorje's back for another post.

You're not alone Atheosis in hitting that wall of increasingly diminishing returns. It's hard to conivce newer players of this fact because they are still getting "new" things each pack. This is a bad place for ME3 MP to be. The current game itself is highly limited, repeative, and predictable. Out right Bioware has chosen a bad store system, random loot bags that contain worthless junk are not a way to sucker buyers for long.

Other games and social media (Avatar) forums that have similar RNG system for virtual items also have a trading system to allow the "junk" to be midigated by people trading the one or two pearls back and forth. They also have a much larger item base then ME3 has. In the very short term, already coming up on three months and summer vacation nearing, there will not be anything to sustain the large user base need to make a cash shop function as profitable endeavor. By July the consoles will be echoing vacuum chambers, and PC won't be much better if Bioware doesn't lighten up on 3rd party modding to expand play options. This has nothing to do with other game release, but by virute of any hard gridding for credits seems to take about a month to more or less max out play.
You can see it now with newer player's starting to jump into the game in the low 100s of N7. We'll see another influx at the end of this month and then that'll be it for new blood getting "caught" by the current Pack system. A month, month and a half-later with a buggy game, limited content, and frustartingly glitched event awards they'll be gone and what little chance of $2 or $3 buck pack buys with them.

=====

Bioware's problem (beside a desperate need to fix flaws in the game) is the need to pad packs and keep people feeling the need to buy. They currently do this with character cards. They could do it with consumables (I think we saw the first of this in the jumbo pack, those +2 consumable cards) but that doesn't really help wit the 2nd big probme, stale game play.

Now currently Bioware's taking a dim view of modding game files on the PC, even to create non-credit/xp granting variant game modes, which is unfortuante as this is the kernal of the short term salvation. Because Mass Effect has to put up with approval process when pushing new features on consoles they are limited in what they can do. To say they did not have a good structure in place is a rather mild white wash. However what they (and the Modders willing to brave their wrath) have show is that tweeking those basically text files contating wave spawn information is both possible and fairly easy to push.

To both expand game play, pad packs, and keep the money rolling what Bioware needs is to stop production on playable characters and weapon DLCs for the momment and create a system that allows the players to place modifications on those same files. Openning up a new a wider category of unlock/consumables that change enemy spawn rates, strenghts, composition, etc. Building the UI and setting up how these different elements will interact is no simple, but will add an element of chaos and unpredictability to a rather static game currently. Essentially it becomes a sanction way to tweek and generate custome game types within the current structure.

At this point give the "hard core" community that is following the game, many would even be willing to have no in-game credit/xp rewards on custom game modes.

• New static unlocks (Mob Cards)

• New consumables for padding (further minor tweeks to Mobs, removing the need to pad with characters or other static unlocks)

• A way to play variant games

• Expandable through DLC

Some examples of  consumable modification to Mobs would be their stager value, or vulnerability to various effects (Banshees being caugt in singularities), or increased/decrease spawn of ammo and nades at creates in-game.