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[Taboo]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

My biggest problem with the synthesis ending is when the starchild calls it the apex of evolution.

Anyone with a basic understanding of biology and evolution know that there is no such thing as the apex of evolution. Evolution is a continuous process where organisms (both biological and non-biological) continue to adapt to their environments. Organisms have to adapt or face extinction. If we take the starchild at its word, then we just stagnated evolution in all life in the galaxy. This means we just doomed all life in the galaxy because it can no longer adapt. Diseases and the environment can wipe out everything.

I hear you. The writer doesn't understand evolution.

It makes me want to email Richard Dawkins.

His answer would probably be "What the hell?"

[Drummernate]

fchopin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

Hmmm....

Geth mixing with organics seems awkward... and it would make them less awesome.

But other organics mixing with Geth... that makes it more awesome.

I dont see any difference from the two choices.

A Synthetic mixing with a Organic seems odd...

A Organic mixing with a Synthetic makes more sense.

Kinda like if you were to mix a Crocodile and a Gecko, or a Gecko and a Crocodile.

They would look totally different based on what the beggining product was.

If you chop them up and make a salad they will look the same whatever you pick up first.

I hate salad!!!! 

Guess the synthesis is disgusting then. <_<

[jtav]

The problem with Synthesis is that it's poorly set up and doesn't really follow from the themes of the story. But it is not per se horrible. There's nothing special or sacred about organic life. Organic life is flawed. Synthetics don't get cancer. If organic life can gain the strength of synthetics while synthetics gain our ability to truly emote, that I consider radically changing life worth the ethical cost. And setting the Reapers free from the Catalyst's control is a fantastic thing.

It just belongs in a completely different story.

[Cobra's_back]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

You know one of the biggest problems with any of the endings, is that not a single one of them solves the problems that the Catalyst seems to be so worried about.  In each one of them, the creation of full fledged synthetics is still possible.  So...in the end, what do any of these endings really do in the grand scheme of things?

Nothing but confuse us. Also there was no crazy power hungry AI that was taking over the world.

[Wolven_Soul]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

but only from a story telling point of view, they left far too much to the imagination and everyone has been left wanting to be baby walked through it, which I really hope we don't get.

What?

Nobody wants a game to be a bed time story, if I want to see someone's story I'll watch a film. I find it really annoying that many here are just looking for every answer on a plate. The story isn't finished yet and we're all arguing about assumptions on things we may or may not have gotten right, considering it's a sci-fi genre most assumptions, mine included are mostly likely based on our own fantasies, not what the writers are working on.

First of all, ambiguity is very much a part of the movie genre.  Second of all, ambiguity only really works on a single story scale in my opinion.  Not in trilogies.  In a trilogy a story needs to have a definite conclusion.  It is okay to allow for the possiblity for more stories to be told at a later date, but the end of a trilogy needs to wrap up every story arc and answer every question, not start asking new ones. 

Also, if we the fans of Mass Effect had not raised such a ruckus over the endings, then yes, what we currently have now is all that we would get, as Bioware has said that they do not plan on making any more games set in the time period after the end of the trilogy.  So I have heard others say at least, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. 

Thirdly, these are video games, I do not want to be forced to speculate considering my efforts went into shaping the story that takes place.

[Bad King]

Why do people hate synthesis so much? All it does is make your eyes turn bright green.

[Wolven_Soul]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Unit-Alpha, I understand your argument fully.

But then again, it's YOUR own personal view point, based on YOUR own experience with the game.
To me, after the achievement of Geth/Quarian cooperation, and faced with such bad alternatives...

You see, the choice is not
Destroy Repears - Control Reapers - Synthesize

It's Destroy Geth who are working with Quarians and helping them heal from their intolerance to the environment, and destroy EDI and destroy pretty much all civilization through the destruction of Technology.
Again, that's the choice I am given, based on my previous choices in the game.
It might be different for you.

Based on that given choice, I chose Synthesis. Cause there is no better alternative for me.

Was it explained enough?
No, that's a valid argument on quality.



You guys, I think the endings are pretty good, considering they spark so much debate.
Intelligent debate for the most part, even.

Except that the greatest majority of the debate is over whether or not the endings are good or bad.

[cachx]

 I just wanted to point out that this thread was almost instantly Godwinned and how hilarious that is.

As for the topic itself, an as it usually happens with the ME3 ending, I can't reach a conclusion without actually knowing what the hell actually happened.

Do I keep my free will?
Do I live forever?
Do I need to eat/sleep?
Can I mate with a Geth?
How exactly does this stop me from making machines to do the boring work?

[Wolven_Soul]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Permit me to not express my opinion about Lit Professors. Also, I thought this debate is about the choice itself, not the quality of the writing of the ending.

Considering that quite a lot of people thing that synthesis is completely stupid, it inevitably leads back to the the crappiness of the ending and it's writing.

[Peranor]

Looking at this picture it's quite clear that out of 3 very bad "choices", the red one is the lesser evil.

[Vox Draco]

First I admit I haven't read the entire thread..

Second let me say that I hate the idea of synthethis for the various reasons already stated numerous times on this board...it's genetic rape, the original idea of the Reapers etc...

Third...ahem...I just wonder...does synthethis merge ALL organic life with synthetics? Or just theadvanced  races we used to know, like Asari, Geth (they are sentient programs however, how does it even..ah, forget it!), Krogan and humans? What about the Yagh, who took no part in the intergalactic society? They also get merged? And the supposed many other non-advanced races living across the galaxy as well? Quite a shock that would be to them, I guess...

And what about animals? Do they become half-synthetic too? Even elephants, cats and ants? They are organic, after all...And if not...what if one of these animal-species across the galaxy is ultimately making evolution to a sentient being? Do they become half-synthetic in reverse, with spare-DNA from Shepard?

Ahem..I guess one should not think too much about the green choice...just take the red option, destroy the Reapers and keep livin', Shepard! And don't worry, if you live, then the Geth and EDI might as well...at least you will be alive to check if the kid was lying or not!

[Drummernate]

cachx wrote...
 
Can I mate with a Geth?

And... now I am choosing synthesis again... brb.

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[Wolven_Soul]

Meltemph wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Tietj wrote...

I'm personally repulsed at the idea of synthesis. I imagine there are quite a few other individuals in the galaxy who are.

My fear for the extended cut (which I'm generally optimistic about, however) is that it will expand on synthesis being the "best" choice, through a lot of narrative contrivance. "And every being in the galaxy was very happy that Shepard chose green..."

Michael Gamble said that they are going to fix the EMS issue because they seem to have realized that people do NOT believe Synthesis is the best ending. People like Destroy and it shows.

Genocide(Destroy) is never justified I really hope people do not like destroy

I guess you do not agree with the Vulcan philosophy that the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few.  Yeah destroying the geth sucks, but to avoid something as morally repugnant as synthesis, I will make that sacrifice and honor their memory.

Well, you could take the word of HAcket over teh word of the Starchild and just believe taht you did infact make the crucible good enough where it only hits the reapers.

That is a good and hopeful thought, but I would assume that the Catalyst would recognize such a thing in the programming or whatever of the Crucible and thus he would not be saying that the geth would be destroyed. That is my assumption, anyway.

[Sohlito]

anorling wrote...



Looking at this picture it's quite clear that out of 3 very bad "choices", the red one is the lesser evil.

Nice.

[YNation913]

wright1978 wrote...

YNation913 wrote...
 
I think we can all agree that the nuances of the explanation leave a lot to be desired. Yes, the idea of a "new" DNA makes little sense when thinking about it too long. The real question is whether synthesis really harms life in the galaxy. I feel that based on what little we're told and shown, we have good reason to believe that it does not.

Well as far as i can see it, either synthesis harms life or else it doesn't and these new lifeforms could produce AI's and therefore reapers will harvest them.

Perhaps this is something that will receive attention in the EC. If we take the post credits "note" and scene with Stargazer at face value, the Reaper threat ends regardless. Now, I can see how a confirmation that the Reapers are gone for good in a note that also mentions DLC can be VERY unsatisfying, so hopefully there'll be more explanation as to what exactly synthesis "solves" in the DLC.

For now I'll posit these questions; if the hybrids are capable of accomplishing the tasks normally suited for AI, what would be the point in creating AI? Futhermore, even if new AI were created, the Reapers' solution was based on the belief that organics would be outmatched by the capabilities of synthetic life, so if the new lifeforms can match the abilities of AI, why would the Reapers still feel a need to harvest them? Would abilities like indoctrination even work on the hybrids? Would the hybrids be capable of imagining technology that could outclass even the Reapers? 

[Unit-Alpha]

Vox Draco wrote...

First I admit I haven't read the entire thread..

Second let me say that I hate the idea of synthethis for the various reasons already stated numerous times on this board...it's genetic rape, the original idea of the Reapers etc...

Third...ahem...I just wonder...does synthethis merge ALL organic life with synthetics? Or just theadvanced  races we used to know, like Asari, Geth (they are sentient programs however, how does it even..ah, forget it!), Krogan and humans? What about the Yagh, who took no part in the intergalactic society? They also get merged? And the supposed many other non-advanced races living across the galaxy as well? Quite a shock that would be to them, I guess...

And what about animals? Do they become half-synthetic too? Even elephants, cats and ants? They are organic, after all...And if not...what if one of these animal-species across the galaxy is ultimately making evolution to a sentient being? Do they become half-synthetic in reverse, with spare-DNA from Shepard?

Ahem..I guess one should not think too much about the green choice...just take the red option, destroy the Reapers and keep livin', Shepard! And don't worry, if you live, then the Geth and EDI might as well...at least you will be alive to check if the kid was lying or not!

It does merge all organics with synthetics; look at the leaves on the tree in the Eden scene.

[Wolven_Soul]

Drummernate wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

My biggest problem with the synthesis ending is when the starchild calls it the apex of evolution.

Anyone with a basic understanding of biology and evolution know that there is no such thing as the apex of evolution. Evolution is a continuous process where organisms (both biological and non-biological) continue to adapt to their environments. Organisms have to adapt or face extinction. If we take the starchild at its word, then we just stagnated evolution in all life in the galaxy. This means we just doomed all life in the galaxy because it can no longer adapt. Diseases and the environment can wipe out everything.

You miss the point then.

If you combine synthetics with organics, you can no longer get diseases. You can no longer go extinct unless they begin killing each other, you no longer need to eat, drink, sleep, or anything like that.

Micro-evolution will always happen.

Macro... not... really.

You can still get diseases.  Computer viruses.  Besides, part of you is still organic, that part can still be affected.  Also, that part of you has to be maintained somehow, so yes, you still need to do things like eat and sleep.  Take the Borg for example.  They still consume food.  Granted I think it was basically just some kind of paste or something.  And their regeneration cycles are just like sleeping.

[Oldbones2]

Yes, from every perspective and at every angle, its horrifying.

I didn't pick that option when it was done well in Deus Ex.

I certainly will never pick that choice when its done poorly in Mass Effect.

[Reorte]

Vox Draco wrote...

Third...ahem...I just wonder...does synthethis merge ALL organic life with synthetics? Or just theadvanced  races we used to know, like Asari, Geth (they are sentient programs however, how does it even..ah, forget it!), Krogan and humans? What about the Yagh, who took no part in the intergalactic society? They also get merged? And the supposed many other non-advanced races living across the galaxy as well? Quite a shock that would be to them, I guess...

Judging by the plants on Silly Ending Planet yes, everything. Even Joker's hat IIRC.

Synthesis is both repugnant and ludicrous. If it was the only possible way of avoiding complete annhialation by the Reapers then it might just be the lesser of two very big evils.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Drummernate wrote...

cachx wrote...
 
Can I mate with a Geth?

And... now I am choosing synthesis again... brb.

Can you mate at all? Do you die ever die...? Do you need to be upgraded? WD40 instead of Advil? Shut down instead of sleep? We don't know all the variables which is problem #1.

Isn't that all...dangerous?

Yeah, if it's "genetic" rape it's discusting. Even though calling it rape is harsh, only because in a general sense of the word the person commiting rape usually enjoys it. I don't think inflicting this "sythesis" garbage is enjoyable by anyone. Even not being "rape" it's discusting. 

"Oh, what the hell? My eyes are glowing and...are my veins wires now? How did this happen? Who did this? What a tool he was, now I get to spend all day computing Pi..." 
Sound familiar?

[Cobra's_back]

Taboo-XX wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

My biggest problem with the synthesis ending is when the starchild calls it the apex of evolution.

Anyone with a basic understanding of biology and evolution know that there is no such thing as the apex of evolution. Evolution is a continuous process where organisms (both biological and non-biological) continue to adapt to their environments. Organisms have to adapt or face extinction. If we take the starchild at its word, then we just stagnated evolution in all life in the galaxy. This means we just doomed all life in the galaxy because it can no longer adapt. Diseases and the environment can wipe out everything.

I hear you. The writer doesn't understand evolution.

It makes me want to email Richard Dawkins.

His answer would probably be "What the hell?"

Just think our important dominate genes that need to be passed on can be forfeited for robo-factor.

[Bill Casey]

Reorte wrote...

Synthesis is both repugnant and ludicrous. If it was the only possible way of avoiding complete annhialation by the Reapers then it might just be the lesser of two very big evils.

_____________________________________________________________________



Shepard: "It's not just about living 'till tomorrow. Sometimes you take a stand."


EDI: "But the probability of success was near zero. And ultimately, they failed. No prisoners escaped."


Shepard: "Are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?"

____________________________________________________________________



Saren: You saw the visions. You saw what happened to the Protheans. Surrender or Death. There are no other options.

Shepard: You could have resisted. You could have fought. Instead you surrendered. You quit.

____________________________________________________________________

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[Bad King]

anorling wrote...



Looking at this picture it's quite clear that out of 3 very bad "choices", the red one is the lesser evil.

I've seen people claim that Saren wanted synthesis, yet Saren's idea of synthesis and what we get at the end of ME3 are very different.

Sovereign had convinced Saren (via indoctrination) that organics needed reaper implants to be 'upgraded'. This would allow him to assume direct control of Saren when necessary.

The synthesis ending meanwhile creates a new genetic code for everything, both synthetic and organic. This genetic code somehow is a combination of organic and synthetic material which unifies all organic and synthetic life. This is different to simply being implanted with reaper tech (what the indoctrinated Saren wanted).

As for TIM, the reapers wanted him to believe that he could control them to create a rift between organic factions. It was clearly never their intention that some organic would come to control them. Just because control was what TIM wanted doesn't make it a bad decision.

[Siansonea]

anorling wrote...



Looking at this picture it's quite clear that out of 3 very bad "choices", the red one is the lesser evil.

LOVE this.<3

[Vox Draco]

Reorte wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

Third...ahem...I just wonder...does synthethis merge ALL organic life with synthetics? Or just theadvanced  races we used to know, like Asari, Geth (they are sentient programs however, how does it even..ah, forget it!), Krogan and humans? What about the Yagh, who took no part in the intergalactic society? They also get merged? And the supposed many other non-advanced races living across the galaxy as well? Quite a shock that would be to them, I guess...

Judging by the plants on Silly Ending Planet yes, everything. Even Joker's hat IIRC.

Synthesis is both repugnant and ludicrous. If it was the only possible way of avoiding complete annhialation by the Reapers then it might just be the lesser of two very big evils.

So even the trees get half-synthetic? Really? *chuckles* this is getting better than I thought! And this is called the "pinnacle of evolution"? So no more evolution necessary? Poor alien ******-erecti...you'll never become alien ******-sapiens now...but at least you won't build any synthetics as well...

Alright, half-synthetic bees and trees should be enough for everyone not to take this option seriously...