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[DJBare]

The "final" evolution if life
That word seems pretty specific to me, the "final" act

Oh and people talking about Legion uploading, did he ask the geth?, yes he did, they are a hive mind.

[Cypher_CS]

julio, for the umpteenth time - all three choices are you playing God....

[Meltemph]

Cypher_CS wrote...

julio, for the umpteenth time - all three choices are you playing God....

No, only 1 choice you are playing God(sorta, since this choice kills you, so you cant control the reapers for long) with control.  With snythesis you are playing a crazy scientist willing to take a risk in altering and forever changing what that person is, off a hunch because of some inate desire to fix all the undesirable traints in humans...er I mean organics.

[julio77777]

@Cypher
Actually I would have to agree with you. Just the effects are particularly widened in the systhesis ending, which makes it the least morally acceptable choice.

But you're right any choice is morally unacceptable, particularly by Shepard's strandard (regardless of wether you're renegade or paragon).

[Cypher_CS]

Again with the one dimensional thinking?

Your consequences are not just the destruction or control of Reapers.
Your consequences are galaxy wide. Mass Relays, Technology et al etc' etc'

So yes, you are playing God in all three.

[Meltemph]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Again with the one dimensional thinking?

Your consequences are not just the destruction or control of Reapers.
Your consequences are galaxy wide. Mass Relays, Technology et al etc' etc'

So yes, you are playing God in all three.

Consequences of an action dont make you a God.  Destroying the reapers was a galaxy wide goal of all the races, you destroing them in no way violates that.  You cant HELP but make a choice, since you are forced to, but the destroy option isnt playing God, it is just trying to destroy the reapers.  

Control is TRYING to play God in some weird abstract way.

Synthesis is just experimentation on a large scale(assuming the kid isnt trying to reaperfy everything, since whne you jump in the beam, you look pretty damn close to a husk).  Ya its sorta Godhood, but not really, sicne you have no idea WHAT you are actually doing, outside of filling ones mind with eugenics heaven.

[Nimrodell]

Same could be said for all endings:

1. Destroy - Shepard is entitled to decide on behalf geth and Edi - that solution is OK only if Shepard is an actual bigot who lied to geth and EDI that s/he considers them equals, living beings. We already saw that there were quarians ready to defend and die for geth in Morning War - who's to say that Shepard wouldn't be condemned again as first class bigot and mass murderer?
2. Control - Shepard is entitled to make him/herself guiding hand of Reapers, but it's human mind forced into solitude for countless ages, it may go crazy some day or misinterpret future events (again Superman's confusion arises again when he's even fighting against Batman because he didn't have enough information, misinterpreted Batman and his struggle for freedom and democracy - and yet again Superman actually had good intentions). Who knows, maybe after eons Shepard's mind, whatever s/he became, becomes delusional, crazy because of being stuck in some state between life and death and s/he decides that beings of the galaxy are not deserving to continue anymore - that's also disgusting as any other scenario - unless Shepard is actually lucky as Prometheus was and gets freed by someone like Hercules was.

We can twist every ending into being disgusting. It's just tje ending itself being bad, no matter what choice you take.

[Cypher_CS]

julio, I disagree there.

There is no "Shepard's standard".
It's YOUR standard or MY standard.

It's the standard you and me and every other player made for himself throughout all the adventures and choices in all three games.
To each player, his own standard. That's the point.
If you were heavy on Renegade, I think Destruction would work well for your standard.
If I, for example, worked hard to get everyone cooperating and found the idea of Geth and Quarian cooperation and actual synthesis with their work on reestablishing their foothold and civilization on Rannoch and getting the Quarians cured from their inability to breathe and exist without the Enviro-Suits (talk to Tali after that whole thing, in Engineering) - so Synthesis was a really easy choice for me.

Again, forget for a moment the results as depicted in the ending AFTER you choose.
The choice as presented at first fits that mentality of MY Shepard.
It has nothing to do with seeing leafs with green Matrix code on them and such.
It's about the CHOICE itself, not the presentation past it.

[Candidate 88766]

Is synthesis that bad?

You clearly retain your personality along with all your feelings and emotions etc because we can see that Joker and EDI still have affection for each other when they emerge from the Normandy. So you're still 'you'.

So all it really seems to do is 'upgrade' you, and in the ME universe implants are commonplace. It would be a shock if it happened now, for ethical and possibly religious reasons, but in a future where implants are part of everyday life I don't imagine the reaction to it would be that bad.

The only issues I have with it are that it seems to work via magic, and that this is something the galaxy should achieve on its own. Evolution will eventually lead to a point where organics overcome their evolutionary limitations (ageing, illness, hunger, thirst, tiredness, etc), so I can sort of see where Bioware is coming from with the 'final evolution of life' thing. There is still diversity. Saying that synthesis removes diversity is like saying that all carbon-based life is exactly the same.

I am a bit confused as to what happens with synthetics though. I'm guessing that they just gain personalities and emotions and stuff, but it really is open for speculation.

[Oransel]

Never chose this. This is exactly what Reapers wanted to do for the whole time of their existence. Sounds like surrendering to them.

[Candidate 88766]

Oransel wrote...

Never chose this. This is exactly what Reapers wanted to do for the whole time of their existence. Sounds like surrendering to them.

Its not.

The Reapers sacrificed everything that made them organic when they 'uploaded' themselves into their Reaper shells. Synthesis ensures that you keep what makes you a person, whilst allowing you to overcome your evolutionary limitations.

[Cypher_CS]

Meltemph, Shepard is aware of those consequences.
He knows he will destroy all the civilizations. Be it kill all tech (with Destroy), which includes sentient tech (EDI, Geth) and pretty much all other advanced tech (VIs, space travel etc'). Effectively destroying civilization. Be it control all tech, again killing the Geth sentient self and undoing so much, effectively leaving control to someone unknown (since he gets burned).
Synthesis, in this view, seems to me like the lesser of all evils cause while you force some future change on all life (maybe for the better, maybe for the worse - see my previous posts about XNA and Synthesis) but technology remains. Free will remains. Life remains.
Mass Relays are apparently destroyed (please retcon) but there's still space travel (in system) or maybe they can have something better or be able to rebuild them with their new abilities or knowledge or whatever.

[Meltemph]

You clearly retain your personality along with all your feelings and emotions etc because we can see that Joker and EDI still have affection for each other when they emerge from the Normandy. So you're still 'you'.

One characteristic doesn't mean taht they have not been changed. You dont know the significants of the change at all. You can not form an idea of all the ramifications of snythesis by EDI and Joker hugging. >.>

Besides, it doesn't change that before you jump, you have absolutely 0 clue what this means, and no guarantee the reapers will play nice and that they wont make sure you dont do what they dont want you to do, ever. The desire for creation will still be there, which means that will probably ****** the reapers off. You literally jump into this beam off a prayer and a hunch, mixed together with a desire to "fix us".

[MakeMineMako]

All three choices are equally disgusting. After a couple of playthroughs, I would rather just stand there until the timer runs out and the Crucible is destroyed.

[Zolt51]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Your consequences are not just the destruction or control of Reapers.
Your consequences are galaxy wide. Mass Relays, Technology et al etc' etc'

So yes, you are playing God in all three.

As for the consequences on the relays and/or galaxy tech, I'd wait for the EC to make any prognosis.

In either case, a galaxy without relays is still better than a galaxy harvested by the reapers.

In any case: You are putting an end to a cycle that has lasted millions if not billions of years through this whole galaxy. You're not going to do that by being half assed. The fate of the galaxy is in your hands whether you want it or not. If that was going to be a problem you better have stayed home in Vancouver.

Playing god? If it takes a god to end this war then f*ck yeah!

Modifié par Zolt51, 24 avril 2012 - 08:42 .

[Candidate 88766]

Meltemph wrote...

You clearly retain your personality along with all your feelings and emotions etc because we can see that Joker and EDI still have affection for each other when they emerge from the Normandy. So you're still 'you'.

One characteristic doesn't mean taht they have not been changed. You dont know the significants of the change at all. You can not form an idea of all the ramifications of snythesis by EDI and Joker hugging. >.>

Besides, it doesn't change that before you jump, you have absolutely 0 clue what this means, and no guarantee the reapers will play nice and that they wont make sure you dont do what they dont want you to do, ever. The desire for creation will still be there, which means that will probably ****** the reapers off. You literally jump into this beam off a prayer and a hunch, mixed together with a desire to "fix us".

There's no indication in the game that you lose any of your personality etc, and there is evidence that you retain it, so I'm more inclined to believe the latter. I don't get to see all of the ramifications of synthesis, but I get to see that Joker and EDI have at least retained their affection. There's no evidence at all that they've lost anything of their personalities, so sayign that is pure speculation.

And you have no idea if any of the endings will work if you want to look at it like that. You take the Catalyst on it's word that the destroy option will kill the Reapers. For all you know, shooting the pipe will simply kill Shepard and nothing else. Likewise for control. You have no choice other than to assume the Catalyst is genuinely giving you these choices.

[Meltemph]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Meltemph, Shepard is aware of those consequences.
He knows he will destroy all the civilizations. Be it kill all tech (with Destroy), which includes sentient tech (EDI, Geth) and pretty much all other advanced tech (VIs, space travel etc'). Effectively destroying civilization. Be it control all tech, again killing the Geth sentient self and undoing so much, effectively leaving control to someone unknown (since he gets burned).
Synthesis, in this view, seems to me like the lesser of all evils cause while you force some future change on all life (maybe for the better, maybe for the worse - see my previous posts about XNA and Synthesis) but technology remains. Free will remains. Life remains.
Mass Relays are apparently destroyed (please retcon) but there's still space travel (in system) or maybe they can have something better or be able to rebuild them with their new abilities or knowledge or whatever.

Destroy is the only way to kill the reapers and it is the only "known", the other 2 options are guess work at best and traps at worst.  The only things we see is the reapers stop attacking momentarily.  We dont know if it is permanent or not, but either way, before you see this action, you have no idea if it will work anywho.  The ending sequence as a whole though is disjointed so it is hard to make a clear idea as to what to think of it, outside of the IT theory.  The mindset behind the snyhtesis option pre-jump though, to me, is incredibly short-sighted.  

Everyone who jumps assumes super humans and jumps off a hunch and a prayer.

[Cypher_CS]

Right on Zolt!

[Anduin The Grey]

The main problem I have with the concept that synthesis removes free will is, who then, is actually in control? Or if true to expand the story could this be another story arc with which they would have to follow?

[Meltemph]

There's no indication in the game that you lose any of your personality etc, and there is evidence that you retain it, so I'm more inclined to believe the latter. I don't get to see all of the ramifications of synthesis, but I get to see that Joker and EDI have at least retained their affection. There's no evidence at all that they've lost anything of their personalities, so sayign that is pure speculation.

There is no evidence of anything outside of Joker and EDI still like each-other. That isnt much of anything to go on, either or.

And you have no idea if any of the endings will work if you want to look at it like that. You take the Catalyst on it's word that the destroy option will kill the Reapers. For all you know, shooting the pipe will simply kill Shepard and nothing else. Likewise for control. You have no choice other than to assume the Catalyst is genuinely giving you these choices.

The only choice that the Child make crystal clear was destroy. All of his other explanations were at best, hazy. Any option other then destroy took a hell of a lot of faith that everything would work out, much more so then destroy. Nobody could possibly know the consequences of snythesis and we have no idea what control does, since the kid specifically states that you will die and lose everything you have.

[Cypher_CS]

Meltemph, I'm assuming you were against Cerberus all throughout ME2, right?

Cause Control, despite the eventual inability of TIM to use it, is explained or at least discussed extensively throughout the various Cerberus themes.

As for Synthesis, again, maybe you didn't choose the choices I chose, but it seemed pretty well discussed as well - via all the Geth experience from ME1, ME2 and ME3 (and Quarians).

[Bfler]

Zolt51 wrote...

In any case: You are putting an end to a cycle that has lasted millions if not billions of years through this whole galaxy. You're not going to do that by being half assed. The fate of the galaxy is in your hands whether you want it or not. If that was going to be a problem you better have stayed home in Vancouver.

Better: The fate of the galaxy is forced on you by a character which is introduced 5 minutes before the end of the game.

Modifié par Bfler, 24 avril 2012 - 08:36 .

[Candidate 88766]

Meltemph wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Meltemph, Shepard is aware of those consequences.
He knows he will destroy all the civilizations. Be it kill all tech (with Destroy), which includes sentient tech (EDI, Geth) and pretty much all other advanced tech (VIs, space travel etc'). Effectively destroying civilization. Be it control all tech, again killing the Geth sentient self and undoing so much, effectively leaving control to someone unknown (since he gets burned).
Synthesis, in this view, seems to me like the lesser of all evils cause while you force some future change on all life (maybe for the better, maybe for the worse - see my previous posts about XNA and Synthesis) but technology remains. Free will remains. Life remains.
Mass Relays are apparently destroyed (please retcon) but there's still space travel (in system) or maybe they can have something better or be able to rebuild them with their new abilities or knowledge or whatever.

Destroy is the only way to kill the reapers and it is the only "known", the other 2 options are guess work at best and traps at worst.  The only things we see is the reapers stop attacking momentarily.  We dont know if it is permanent or not, but either way, before you see this action, you have no idea if it will work anywho.  The ending sequence as a whole though is disjointed so it is hard to make a clear idea as to what to think of it, outside of the IT theory.  The mindset behind the snyhtesis option pre-jump though, to me, is incredibly short-sighted.  

Everyone who jumps assumes super humans and jumps off a hunch and a prayer.

How do you know that destroy isn't a trap?

Its the least desirable outcome for the Reapers, so why take the Catalyst at its word that destroy will kill the Reapers?

[Oransel]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Its not.

The Reapers sacrificed everything that made them organic when they 'uploaded' themselves into their Reaper shells. Synthesis ensures that you keep what makes you a person, whilst allowing you to overcome your evolutionary limitations.

That's why I have never chose this. Like I said to TIM, it's too much of a sacrifice to the point of losing your soul. Immortality and power are not worth it in my opinion. Anyway, all 3 endings are horrible equally.

[Anduin The Grey]

Meltemph wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Meltemph, Shepard is aware of those consequences.
He knows he will destroy all the civilizations. Be it kill all tech (with Destroy), which includes sentient tech (EDI, Geth) and pretty much all other advanced tech (VIs, space travel etc'). Effectively destroying civilization. Be it control all tech, again killing the Geth sentient self and undoing so much, effectively leaving control to someone unknown (since he gets burned).
Synthesis, in this view, seems to me like the lesser of all evils cause while you force some future change on all life (maybe for the better, maybe for the worse - see my previous posts about XNA and Synthesis) but technology remains. Free will remains. Life remains.
Mass Relays are apparently destroyed (please retcon) but there's still space travel (in system) or maybe they can have something better or be able to rebuild them with their new abilities or knowledge or whatever.

Destroy is the only way to kill the reapers and it is the only "known", the other 2 options are guess work at best and traps at worst.  The only things we see is the reapers stop attacking momentarily.  We dont know if it is permanent or not, but either way, before you see this action, you have no idea if it will work anywho.  The ending sequence as a whole though is disjointed so it is hard to make a clear idea as to what to think of it, outside of the IT theory.  The mindset behind the snyhtesis option pre-jump though, to me, is incredibly short-sighted.  

Everyone who jumps assumes super humans and jumps off a hunch and a prayer.

I was constantly listening and looking for clues when I finished the game the first time looking for the any cues that would let me know I was being tricked or coerced into choosing one thing over another.

There simply isn't anything solid, you've got 3 choices and one unwritten choice, choose one and live with it. If Synthesis has us all controlled by the Catalyst then the ending's come down to either you chose wrong, game over for the ME universe, or, it was game over but we have a story arc/DLC to expand on that.

Am guessing at this point that the most likely DLC to come out next, barring any MP only DLC will be a retake Omega DLC, but then I was one of many expecting the Rachni to turn up and cleanse the universe of it's darkness with fire or words to that effect.