561 réponses à ce sujet

[julio77777]

Cypher
I get what you're saying and I agree with you to a point.

But whatever playthrough and choices you make, those choices do not reflect your standard.

I get that synthesis was supposed to be the "happy ending" where everyone gets to live, but if you think about it there is tons and tons of moral and ethical problems with it.

They tried to create difficult decisions, but they kinda missed their point. I had multiple playthroughs... and in any of them I would choose to wait for the game over (and I actually did but I only played it once), let the other civilizations in 50k years find a better way, because if you choose you fail, at least in my opinion.

Back to the topic, synthesis have way too many implications and you know very little about them making it denying the galaxy any evolutional future on the off chance that starkid is right, (and he's already been wrong with his reaper solution). Even if Extended Cut explains in detail the implications of the choices, starkid remain untrustworthy, so the fact of choosing that is not Shepard..ish especially if your Shepard is all about unification through diversity (which he is from what you're telling me).

Modifié par julio77777, 24 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[Meltemph]

How do you know that destroy isn't a trap?

Its the least desirable outcome for the Reapers, so why take the Catalyst at its word that destroy will kill the Reapers?

Because it is the only one he is the most clear on and the one most obvious he doesn't want me to take. The control ending he literally bates you "Think you can control us?" and the other one is, hey, lets all take a gamble and have you jump into a beam of light that will clearly kill you and keep us alive, and then make synthetic organic hybrids..."Oh, BTW, while you are getting fired by the beam you will look a lot like a husk before you get vaporized"

What I do know is, that their entire premise is based off a survival off a hypothetical situation, so survival is up their on there "things to do" list, I would think.

[Candidate 88766]

Meltemph wrote...

There's no indication in the game that you lose any of your personality etc, and there is evidence that you retain it, so I'm more inclined to believe the latter. I don't get to see all of the ramifications of synthesis, but I get to see that Joker and EDI have at least retained their affection. There's no evidence at all that they've lost anything of their personalities, so sayign that is pure speculation.

There is no evidence of anything outside of Joker and EDI still like each-other. That isnt much of anything to go on, either or.

There is a small amount of evidence that you remain who you are after synthesis, and so far no actual evidence that synthesis does anything bad outside of pure speculation, so I don't get why you're so quick to judge the choice as bad.

And you have no idea if any of the endings will work if you want to look at it like that. You take the Catalyst on it's word that the destroy option will kill the Reapers. For all you know, shooting the pipe will simply kill Shepard and nothing else. Likewise for control. You have no choice other than to assume the Catalyst is genuinely giving you these choices.

The only choice that the Child make crystal clear was destroy. All of his other explanations were at best, hazy. Any option other then destroy took a hell of a lot of faith that everything would work out, much more so then destroy. Nobody could possibly know the consequences of snythesis and we have no idea what control does, since the kid specifically states that you will die and lose everything you have.

I think you've misunderstood control:

You are uploaded into the Citadel, taking the place of the Catalyst. You lose your body, so you are for all intents and purposes dead, but your mind is now in the Citadel, controlling the Reapers.


And no matter what, you're still taking a leap of faith with destroy. You seem to be assuming that the others are traps or lies of some kind, so why are you so quick to believe destroy? Just because its easier to understand doesn't mean its genuine. If you don't trust the Catalyst, you have no reason to trust any of the Catalyst's options.

[im commander shep]

mad_yojik wrote...

No it is not! I actually like the synthesis ending, the only problem its a bit forced on everyone, but its "best solution" IMO.

out of 3 crap solutions (destroy is the best)

[Zolt51]

im commander shep wrote...

mad_yojik wrote...

No it is not! I actually like the synthesis ending, the only problem its a bit forced on everyone, but its "best solution" IMO.

out of 3 crap solutions (destroy is the best)

Control is the best. So there.

Only recourse left now is to unzip.

[Candidate 88766]

Meltemph wrote...

How do you know that destroy isn't a trap?

Its the least desirable outcome for the Reapers, so why take the Catalyst at its word that destroy will kill the Reapers?

Because it is the only one he is the most clear on and the one most obvious he doesn't want me to take. The control ending he literally bates you "Think you can control us?" and the other one is, hey, lets all take a gamble and have you jump into a beam of light that will clearly kill you and keep us alive, and then make synthetic organic hybrids..."Oh, BTW, while you are getting fired by the beam you will look a lot like a husk before you get vaporized"

What I do know is, that their entire premise is based off a survival off a hypothetical situation, so survival is up their on there "things to do" list, I would think.

Control seems to be the one it least wants you to take.

"You will die."
"You will lose everything."

They make control sound pretty unappealing.

And just because its clearer about destroy doesn't mean it isn't lying. You seem to think that contorl and synthesis are some kind of lures to ensure you fail, so I ask you this:

If you really thought the Catalyst was lying, why did you think it was telling the truth with destroy?

[wright1978]

RoyalGambit wrote...

Other than the rape thing, my main problem with synthesis is that it doesn't even solve the problem of singularity. Even though you're partly synthetic, you'd still be able to build an incredibly advanced AI (maybe even more so), and then get wiped out by your own creation. Destroy seems like the way to go. Not even convinced the Geth actually die.

Unless synthesis also removes higher thought processes and turns life into the equivalent of hive of drones.

[Meltemph]

  

I think you've misunderstood control:

You are uploaded into the Citadel, taking the place of the Catalyst. You lose your body, so you are for all intents and purposes dead, but your mind is now in the Citadel, controlling the Reapers.

This is your assumption, and I would say you are wrong on this.  The catalyst clearly says "Think you can control us which means the kid comes with the deal.  He also says more then just you will die, he makes sure to mention that you will lose everything you have.  With a discussion like that, there is so much obfuscation that the only reason I could see someone making this choice, is because the other ones make you do things you really dont want to.

And no matter what, you're still taking a leap of faith with destroy. You seem to be assuming that the others are traps or lies of some kind, so why are you so quick to believe destroy? Just because its easier to understand doesn't mean its genuine. If you don't trust the Catalyst, you have no reason to trust any of the Catalyst's options.

Becuae the leaps with the other choices is a complete unknown even if it does work, where as if destroy works it is very clear what happens.  Having something that unknown, plus the reapers still being around, isnt my idea of a good idea.  Unless the kids speech all the sudden instilled a lot of trust in the reapers for you... Which well, is less then a smart move, imo.

[Meltemph]

You seem to think that contorl and synthesis are some kind of lures to ensure you fail, so I ask you this:

If you really thought the Catalyst was lying, why did you think it was telling the truth with destroy?

My point is I dont know if he is lying, so if I am going to go with anything, I am going to atleast go with the idea that they get destroyed, vs them sticking around. Because even if he is being 100% upfront with you, the control and synthesis options is depending on blind luck.

[miekojn]

Synthesis is such a cliché.
And I don't understand how it would work anyways. If the organics in you are dying of old age, do you live on with your synthetics in you or something? Will everyone in the galaxy become immortal? If that's the case, I don't think the galaxy will be peaceful due to overpopulation. Would we still need to eat or will some oil suffice?

[Cypher_CS]

julio77777 wrote...

Cypher
I get what you're getting at and I agree with you to a point.

But whatever playthrough and choices you make, those choices do not reflect your standard.

I get that synthesis was supposed to be the "happy ending" where everyone gets to live, but if you think about it there is tons and tons of moral and ethical problems with it.

They tried to create difficult decisions, but they kinda missed their point. I had multiple playthroughs... and in any of them I would choose to wait for the game over (and I actually did but I only played it once), let the other civilizations in 50k years find a better way, because if you choose you fail, at least in my opinion.

Back to the topic, synthesis have way too many implications and you know very little about them making it denying the galaxy any evolutional future on the off chance that starkid is right, (and he's already been wrong with his reaper solution). Even if Extended Cut explains in detail the implications of the choices, starkid remain untrustworthy, so the fact of choosing that is not Shepard..ish especially if your Shepard is all about unification through diversity (which he is from what you're telling me).

Julio, the starkid never says it ends evolution, just that it's the final stage.
Like ****** Sapiens being a stage following ****** Erectus and this is just the next one, ****** Digitalis.

There is no control in Synthesis - especially not by the Catalyst - cause it gets destroyed!

I see so many people here assuming based on LACK of Evidence, instead of assuming based on evidence.
Please stop.

Why are people assuming Synthesis has someone Controlling everyone?
That there is no Free Will?

I've asked this question before and still got NO answer.

[Meltemph]

There is a small amount of evidence that you remain who you are after synthesis, and so far no actual evidence that synthesis does anything bad outside of pure speculation, so I don't get why you're so quick to judge the choice as bad.

Easily can judge it as bad, because you have no idea what the consequences are. Even at the end all you know is that Joker and EDI still love each other, but there are thousdans of other questions that come along with synthesis, seeing as you jsut essentially created new races.

[Cypher_CS]

Meltemph wrote...

You seem to think that contorl and synthesis are some kind of lures to ensure you fail, so I ask you this:

If you really thought the Catalyst was lying, why did you think it was telling the truth with destroy?

My point is I dont know if he is lying, so if I am going to go with anything, I am going to atleast go with the idea that they get destroyed, vs them sticking around. Because even if he is being 100% upfront with you, the control and synthesis options is depending on blind luck.

That's the perfect answer, Meltemph.
For you, that was the most logical choice for your play style.
And That's the whole point, isn't it?

There is no need for you to argue against the other endings, because you've experienced the game in a different matter than others have.

[d-boy15]

nah, if your pay attention to what catalyst said, he try to appeal you to choose synthasis

destroy option - you partly synthatic, geth destroy, chaos will come back.
control - you will die, you will lose everything.

catalyst point out that both choice have  side effect and it's bad but for synthasis choice
he's not even tell you that synthasis will vaporize you, he tell you it the best, when shepard
tell him that he don't know, he just tell "why not?" it's clearly that it's the catalyst choice and
it's what he want.

it's more suspecious when shepard ask him that about peace but he avoid that question...

I not try to show what is best choice, just telling and so far, I still think that all endings are stupid in
present in bad way.

Modifié par d-boy15, 24 avril 2012 - 08:54 .

[Meltemph]

Why are people assuming Synthesis has someone Controlling everyone?
That there is no Free Will?

It is no different then assuming synthesis will be nothing but peaches and cream.

[Candidate 88766]

Meltemph wrote...

You seem to think that contorl and synthesis are some kind of lures to ensure you fail, so I ask you this:

If you really thought the Catalyst was lying, why did you think it was telling the truth with destroy?

My point is I dont know if he is lying, so if I am going to go with anything, I am going to atleast go with the idea that they get destroyed, vs them sticking around. Because even if he is being 100% upfront with you, the control and synthesis options is depending on blind luck.

I guess I can agree with that.

Synthesis and control do have more unknowns than destroy. Although thats why I actually prefer them - their vagueness allows for some speculation and imagination, whereas destroy is pretty set in what it does:

-Wipes out the Reapers, the Citadel and the relays
-Wipes out synthetic life, possibly including sophisticated implants
-If your EMS is low, it wipes out all advanced technology (if your EMS is too low for synthesis, the Catalyst says that you will also lose "most of the technology you rely on")

[Meltemph]

There is no need for you to argue against the other endings, because you've experienced the game in a different matter than others have.

The whole point to these forums is do discuss the game... The ending has a lot to disagree about, seeing as it is incredibly open ended and forces the player to play heavy amounts of pretend time.

[Candidate 88766]

Meltemph wrote...

There is a small amount of evidence that you remain who you are after synthesis, and so far no actual evidence that synthesis does anything bad outside of pure speculation, so I don't get why you're so quick to judge the choice as bad.

Easily can judge it as bad, because you have no idea what the consequences are. Even at the end all you know is that Joker and EDI still love each other, but there are thousdans of other questions that come along with synthesis, seeing as you jsut essentially created new races.

Its purely down to different interpretations then.

You're assuming the worst, while I'm not. Neither of us can prove that our idea of synthesis is right.

[Meltemph]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

You seem to think that contorl and synthesis are some kind of lures to ensure you fail, so I ask you this:

If you really thought the Catalyst was lying, why did you think it was telling the truth with destroy?

My point is I dont know if he is lying, so if I am going to go with anything, I am going to atleast go with the idea that they get destroyed, vs them sticking around. Because even if he is being 100% upfront with you, the control and synthesis options is depending on blind luck.

I guess I can agree with that.

Synthesis and control do have more unknowns than destroy. Although thats why I actually prefer them - their vagueness allows for some speculation and imagination, whereas destroy is pretty set in what it does:

-Wipes out the Reapers, the Citadel and the relays
-Wipes out synthetic life, possibly including sophisticated implants
-If your EMS is low, it wipes out all advanced technology (if your EMS is too low for synthesis, the Catalyst says that you will also lose "most of the technology you rely on")

It also bothered me a lot that with synthesis you literally look like a husk before your body goes bye bye and with control and synthesis you get TIM's eyes...  I dont think BW did that on accident.

[julio77777]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Julio, the starkid never says it ends evolution, just that it's the final stage.
Like ****** Sapiens being a stage following ****** Erectus and this is just the next one, ****** Digitalis.

There is no control in Synthesis - especially not by the Catalyst - cause it gets destroyed!

I see so many people here assuming based on LACK of Evidence, instead of assuming based on evidence.
Please stop.

Why are people assuming Synthesis has someone Controlling everyone?
That there is no Free Will?

I've asked this question before and still got NO answer.

Final means there is no more beyond... even if there is a few steps in evolution beyond the end result of synthesis (that's what you're saying right ?) it will eventually stagnate. You put a death warrant on evolution. That frightens me far more than the reapers personnally...

And eehh I don't know as I never assumed that there is no more free will, but I guess people think that since the organics fuse with the reaper tech they somehow get indoctrinated, that's actually highly unlikely and seems far streched.

Modifié par julio77777, 24 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Meltemph]

You're assuming the worst, while I'm not. Neither of us can prove that our idea of synthesis is right.

I'm not assuming the worst, I'm saying due to the incredible lack of anything with control and synthesis the worst can happen. Atleast with destroy I know the worst. Again, though, I think it was presented that way intentionally, which sent red-flags in my brain.

[Necrotron]

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis is not only incredibly stupid and anti-scientific, it's also racist, disgusting and despicable.

Indeed.  All of the points I wanted to make.

Also, Shepard needs better flans.

[DJBare]

d-boy15 wrote...

nah, if your pay attention to what catalyst said, he try to appeal you to choose synthasis

destroy option - you partly synthatic, geth destroy, chaos will come back.
control - you will die, you will lose everything.

It's pretty much this, at no point does the catalyst have a single negative thing to say about synthesis, that raises suspicions itself, the ultimate goal of the Reapers is ascesion(the mergin of organic and synthetic), whether people agree with synthesis or not is besides the point, synthesis is what the Reapers want.

[Bfler]

Cypher_CS wrote...



Why are people assuming Synthesis has someone Controlling everyone?
That there is no Free Will?

The problem is that it ignores the right to decide for yourself, because with synthesis you force the transformation on everyone. I could bet a great majority of the people would be against such a transformation. Therefore it ignores the free will of each individual.

[Cypher_CS]

julio77777 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

Julio, the starkid never says it ends evolution, just that it's the final stage.
Like ****** Sapiens being a stage following ****** Erectus and this is just the next one, ****** Digitalis.

There is no control in Synthesis - especially not by the Catalyst - cause it gets destroyed!

I see so many people here assuming based on LACK of Evidence, instead of assuming based on evidence.
Please stop.

Why are people assuming Synthesis has someone Controlling everyone?
That there is no Free Will?

I've asked this question before and still got NO answer.

Final means there is no more beyond... even if there is a few steps in evolution beyond the end result of synthesis (that's what you're saying right ?) it will eventually stagnate. You put a death warrant on evolution. That frightens me far more than the reapers personnally...

And eehh I don't know as I never assumed that there is no more free will, but I guess people think that since the organics fuse with the reaper tech they somehow get indoctrinated, that's actually highly unlikely and seems far streched.

Julio,
Has evolution progressed since we reached ****** Sapiens?
Yes, it has. Lots. And still does.
There's a difference between Final Stage and Final State.

And, again, it's the final stage in the Catalyst's limited imagination. Which is fine.
Can you, as Julio, imagine the next stage past ****** Sapiens?

Meltemph wrote...

Why are people assuming Synthesis has someone Controlling everyone?
That there is no Free Will?

It is no different then assuming synthesis will be nothing but peaches and cream.

 

First of all, yes it is. Especially if some of you claim that apparently the ME3 writers wanted us to pick it as the Best Ending...

Secondly, it doesn't matter.
Discuss on the evidence, not the lack of it.
Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence!
And if nothing else, the EDI-Joker thing might just be the ONLY available evidence to the contrary. Yet you still choose Absence of Evidence AS Evidence. Go figure.