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[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's just an excuse. If you want to explore, choose Control and check. *Then* you can fly those Reapers who don't want to exist anymore in a black hole. Or chosse Synthesis and set them free. Maybe some will fly into the next star.

But that's just it; they don't want anything.  They have no free will.  Legion even told us this in ME2; he described Sovereign as being many programs (presumably former people) controlled by a single will.  If the Catalyst had really preserved anything, wouldn't the Reapers display more free will?  That little punk had used them to destroy their own civilizations after all, wouldn't one or two of them have maybe told him to go jump in a lake or something?  At best, those people are just data, no longer sentient.  At worst, they're slaves.

And if you choose synthesis, and the Reapers just leave, where do you think they'll go?  What do you think they'll do?  I'd wager they'd just sit there and do nothing for the next ten billion years.  Given that they are the biggest mass murderers in the history of the galaxy I think destroy is exceedingly charitable.

Modifié par Gyroscopic_Trout, 23 avril 2012 - 03:32 .

[Anduin The Grey]

Siansonea II wrote...

I would not appreciate having my DNA rewritten without my consent.

I probably would not want my DNA rewritten if it meant I would become some kind of hybrid being. I wouldn't necessarily be "me" anymore.

And how does that work with pure synthetic creatures like EDI and the geth? How do they get "rewritten" to become a synthesis of organic and synthetic life? Really, the idea is absurd, and only an armchair philosopher would think it was a profound idea or a "best ending" scenario. Really, whoever came up with the Synthesis idea is not as smart as he thinks he is.

Not to mention, the idea of Joker and EDI being the new Adam and Eve smacks of adolescent male fantasy. Can't handle a real woman? How about a sex robot who just wants to take care of your every need? ::flips table::

For the longest time in the history of man a round earth was pretty much inconceivable.

[wright1978]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What about Joker and EDI?

Okay, really. What about them? What do we see in 10 seconds that tells us whether they've been changed or not?
How does that change that synthesis is what the Reapers want?

Then again you seem to be okay with war criminals winning so nevermind.

Yeah show me a 10 second clip of a collector and a 10 second clip of Javik.
One's a pale imitation of life but 10 seconds isn't enough to tell the difference.

[Eclipse merc]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Synthesis is what Saren wanted. Saren was indoctrinated, so that means it was what the Reapers wanted (or were willing to do).

Control was what TIM wanted. TIM was indoctrinated, so that means it was also acceptable to the Reapers.

IMHO, doing what the Reapers want is disgusting.

This is very true.

[ArchDuck]

Synthesis is a valid path for an individual or species to take but for it to be done on a galactic scale is a monstrous, tragic and despicable thing.

[M Hedonist]

matthewmi wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Darth Asriel wrote...
Destroy is the only real ending. It was always the goal. Why waver at the finish line? It sucks about EDI and the Geth, but trillions of lives are at stake. And what about justice for all those who died at the Reaper's hands in the countless cycles before? The only safe course of action is to destroy the reapers.

Destroy was never the goal of my Shepard. I always wanted to preserve something of the Reapers if it was possible without succumbing to their indoctrination. If you remove the harvesting of advanced species, the Reapers are interesting. Why would I want to destroy them except for a misplaced notion of vengeance? They were under the control of the Catalyst, after all.

I find Control and Synthesis both acceptable choices. Destroy? Never.

Vengeance isn't always misplaced.  The reapers deserve to be destroyed, what is interesting about them?  They come every 50k years or so kill all advanced civilizations, then go back to darkspace and go to sleep, don't think they sit around debating things, and there seems to be no freedom of choice as a reaper otherwise wouldn't  eventually based of probability one of them decide hey reaping just ain't cool. 

They do have a musical culture though, ever heard dubstep?

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What about Joker and EDI?

Okay, really. What about them? What do we see in 10 seconds that tells us whether they've been changed or not?
How does that change that synthesis is what the Reapers want?

Then again you seem to be okay with war criminals winning so nevermind.

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ah....the voice of reason. Many thanks. Indeed, it was never my Shepard's goal to destroy the Reapers, that's what makes the "Destroy is the only option" people so disgusting to me.

I'm sorry. What trilogy were you playing?
When does anyone's Shepard ever express anything but a desire to stop and destroy the Reapers.

Did you have an option to agree with or save Sovereign in ME1? Did you have an option to spare the Collectors in ME2? Did Shepard ever, ever, EVER express any sympathy for the Reapers? Any notion that controlling or becoming the Reapers was a good thing?
We have control over many aspects of Shepard. We could even sympathise with the Geth in ME1 at one point, but Shepard never, NEVER was about anything other than destroying the Reapers.

I kindly invite you to stop making crap up.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[Cobra's_back]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ah....the voice of reason. Many thanks. Indeed, it was never my Shepard's goal to destroy the Reapers, that's what makes the "Destroy is the only option" people so disgusting to me.

Cypher_CS wrote...
I'm really trying to get it, but I can't seem to be able to.
Guys, the whole game is about the Journey.Each player made his own choices throughout the game.So comments like nycmode75's "seemed to directly contradict whatever Shepard was fighting for the whole time" seem rather moot, since that's what HIS Shepard was fighting for.That's what nycmode75 got from the story. That's his own point of view, his own experience coloring his view. His own choices.

The Catalyst doesn't tell you which to pick, he gives you three choices. It's up to YOU, the player, to pick which choice sits the best with your developed Shepard.Have you been constantly Anti Geth, throughout the games? Or maybe you're just the ultimate Renegade, the baddest ass Nay Sayer? Then you'd probably pick Destruction (I'm just throwing off the top of my head), just to watch things blow up!Have you put your trust into TIM or gave him the Collectors' Base or feel megalomaniac enough to think you can control them? Then you'd pick Control.Have you tried to make peace with everyone? Got the Geth and Quarians fully cooperating? Tried to walk the middle ground and actually believe that this can all work well together? Pick Synth.

Yes, the "just pick one" sort of "game play" is quite underwhelming.But those who immersed themselves in the lore and developed story and empathize with Shepard, will probably want to choose the path best suited for their developed character.

What I mean by underwhelming in regards to the "Pick one" thing, is that even though on your first playthrough you'd probably want to pick the one best suited for you, the other options are just a Post Cerberus Base save away.It does kinda take the edge off of it. You don't need to replay the whole thing to pick the other things, just restart the last mission.

But overall, the major three options are quite fitting.

You guys can say the option is absurt or unrealistic or disgusting.
Maybe so, but it's a choice.
And it's not without precendence in the game.

The Geth/Quarian cooperation gives some small inklings into that "possibility", if you took to Tali after that whole endeavor and she tells you about how the Geth are helping the Quarians with their immune system, by residing in their enviro-suits.

That coupled with the fact that pretty much everyone in the ME universe has some sort of implant or another (from Biotics to Omnitools to prosthetics and so on...), there is indeed some direction there.
Only major problem is, again, the abruptness it happens with. Or the immediacy.

Yes and the fact that each option is not explained in detail. There are tons of theories out there.

[Unit-Alpha]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ah....the voice of reason. Many thanks. Indeed, it was never my Shepard's goal to destroy the Reapers, that's what makes the "Destroy is the only option" people so disgusting to me.

I'm sorry. What trilogy were you playing?
When does anyone's Shepard ever express anything but a desire to stop and destroy the Reapers.

Did you have an option to agree with or save Sovereign in ME1? Did you have an option to spare the Collectors in ME2? Did Shepard ever, ever, EVER express any sympathy for the Reapers? Any nothion that controlling or becoming the Reapers was a good thing?
We have control over many aspects of Shepard. We could even sympathise with the Geth in ME1 at one point, but Shepard never, NEVER was about anything other than destroying the Reapers.

I kindly invite you to stop making crap up.

Exactly. We are supposed to project our concept of Shepard onto him/her as we play, but only to a certain degree. You're not supposed to think in a manner that is blatantly opposed to the themes of the work.

[Cobra's_back]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ah....the voice of reason. Many thanks. Indeed, it was never my Shepard's goal to destroy the Reapers, that's what makes the "Destroy is the only option" people so disgusting to me.

I'm sorry. What trilogy were you playing?
When does anyone's Shepard ever express anything but a desire to stop and destroy the Reapers.

Did you have an option to agree with or save Sovereign in ME1? Did you have an option to spare the Collectors in ME2? Did Shepard ever, ever, EVER express any sympathy for the Reapers? Any nothion that controlling or becoming the Reapers was a good thing?
We have control over many aspects of Shepard. We could even sympathise with the Geth in ME1 at one point, but Shepard never, NEVER was about anything other than destroying the Reapers.

I kindly invite you to stop making crap up.

This

Shepard always wanted to destroy them.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

All species must be judged on their own merits. This does not apply when one species is ENSLAVING, TORTURING AND MURDERING all the others.
Get off your pseudo-philosophical high horse. We judge them by the GALAXY's (not just humans, but all the species in the galaxy along with the Protheans and all their other victims) standards because they are actively harming us.

They are war criminals, and I will not judge a war criminal by their own standards.
Also, co-existence? Synthesis only allows "co-existence" by making us like them.
Do you get that? They stop when they turn us into them. How can you not see how sickeningly racist that is?

[Ieldra]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's just an excuse. If you want to explore, choose Control and check. *Then* you can fly those Reapers who don't want to exist anymore in a black hole. Or chosse Synthesis and set them free. Maybe some will fly into the next star.

But that's just it; they don't want anything.  They have no free will.  Legion even told us this in ME2; he described Sovereign as being many programs (presumably former people) controlled by a single will.  If the Catalyst had really preserved anything, wouldn't the Reapers display more free will?  That little punk had used them to destroy their own civilizations after all, wouldn't one or two of them have maybe told him to go jump in a lake or something?  At best, those people are just data, no longer sentient.  At worst, they're slaves.

And if you choose synthesis, and the Reapers just leave, where do you think they'll go?  What do you think they'll do?  I'd wager they'd just sit there and do nothing for the next ten billion years.  Given that they are the biggest mass murderers in the history of the galaxy I think destroy is exceedingly charitable.

Then Destroy is a valid choice for you. Good. But isn't for me. I'm just saying Synthesis is another valid choice.

Besides, disgust is not a category of a rational morality.

[Anduin The Grey]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

All species must be judged on their own merits. This does not apply when one species is ENSLAVING, TORTURING AND MURDERING all the others.
Get off your pseudo-philosophical high horse. We judge them by the GALAXY's (not just humans, but all the species in the galaxy along with the Protheans and all their other victims) standards because they are actively harming us.

They are war criminals, and I will not judge a war criminal by their own standards.
Also, co-existence? Synthesis only allows "co-existence" by making us like them.
Do you get that? They stop when they turn us into them. How can you not see how sickeningly racist that is?

Wait I don't get it now, synthesis rewrites organic and synthetic life into one AND now we're all a nation hell bent on what?

[Unit-Alpha]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's just an excuse. If you want to explore, choose Control and check. *Then* you can fly those Reapers who don't want to exist anymore in a black hole. Or chosse Synthesis and set them free. Maybe some will fly into the next star.

But that's just it; they don't want anything.  They have no free will.  Legion even told us this in ME2; he described Sovereign as being many programs (presumably former people) controlled by a single will.  If the Catalyst had really preserved anything, wouldn't the Reapers display more free will?  That little punk had used them to destroy their own civilizations after all, wouldn't one or two of them have maybe told him to go jump in a lake or something?  At best, those people are just data, no longer sentient.  At worst, they're slaves.

And if you choose synthesis, and the Reapers just leave, where do you think they'll go?  What do you think they'll do?  I'd wager they'd just sit there and do nothing for the next ten billion years.  Given that they are the biggest mass murderers in the history of the galaxy I think destroy is exceedingly charitable.

Then Destroy is a valid choice for you. Good. But isn't for me. I'm just saying Synthesis is another valid choice.

Besides, disgust is not a category of a rational morality.

No, but wrong is. And synthesis is wrong, morally and ethically, not to mention scientifically or logically.

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

All species must be judged on their own merits. This does not apply when one species is ENSLAVING, TORTURING AND MURDERING all the others.
Get off your pseudo-philosophical high horse. We judge them by the GALAXY's (not just humans, but all the species in the galaxy along with the Protheans and all their other victims) standards because they are actively harming us.

They are war criminals, and I will not judge a war criminal by their own standards.
Also, co-existence? Synthesis only allows "co-existence" by making us like them.
Do you get that? They stop when they turn us into them. How can you not see how sickeningly racist that is?

Oh my, can you stop making unfounded assumptions? How is the Synthesis *anything* like making Reapers? By making everything part Synthetic, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that. Well, then I say humans are like bacteria because both are organic. There was actually a famous movie villain who said that back in 1996.

[Little Princess Peach]

I do not understand how it can be disgusting, it's just a new form of D,N,A, the protheans had some strange type of D.N.A than what the modern Galaxy has at the moment is that also disgusting?

[Anduin The Grey]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's just an excuse. If you want to explore, choose Control and check. *Then* you can fly those Reapers who don't want to exist anymore in a black hole. Or chosse Synthesis and set them free. Maybe some will fly into the next star.

But that's just it; they don't want anything.  They have no free will.  Legion even told us this in ME2; he described Sovereign as being many programs (presumably former people) controlled by a single will.  If the Catalyst had really preserved anything, wouldn't the Reapers display more free will?  That little punk had used them to destroy their own civilizations after all, wouldn't one or two of them have maybe told him to go jump in a lake or something?  At best, those people are just data, no longer sentient.  At worst, they're slaves.

And if you choose synthesis, and the Reapers just leave, where do you think they'll go?  What do you think they'll do?  I'd wager they'd just sit there and do nothing for the next ten billion years.  Given that they are the biggest mass murderers in the history of the galaxy I think destroy is exceedingly charitable.

Then Destroy is a valid choice for you. Good. But isn't for me. I'm just saying Synthesis is another valid choice.

Besides, disgust is not a category of a rational morality.

No, but wrong is. And synthesis is wrong, morally and ethically, not to mention scientifically or logically.

What is it about synthesis that is wrong, morally and ethically not to mention scientifcally or logically?

[Sal86]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

All species must be judged on their own merits. This does not apply when one species is ENSLAVING, TORTURING AND MURDERING all the others.
Get off your pseudo-philosophical high horse. We judge them by the GALAXY's (not just humans, but all the species in the galaxy along with the Protheans and all their other victims) standards because they are actively harming us.

They are war criminals, and I will not judge a war criminal by their own standards.
Also, co-existence? Synthesis only allows "co-existence" by making us like them.
Do you get that? They stop when they turn us into them. How can you not see how sickeningly racist that is?

Exactly. Synthesis is not co-existance. What we are ceases to be when synthesis occurs. If we are all the same there can never be such a thing as co-existance. Just like Asari can't have co-ed schools.

[DJBare]

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

Sorry, but I have to say poor argument, at least from my perspective, it's not about assigning human values to the reapers, it's about making a judgement call on the entire galactic community, "ALL" species in the galaxy.

The more you say the more the destroy ending looks more appealing, do I destroy the EDI and the geth along with the reapers or do I impose my will upon the entire galaxy?

[Unit-Alpha]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

All species must be judged on their own merits. This does not apply when one species is ENSLAVING, TORTURING AND MURDERING all the others.
Get off your pseudo-philosophical high horse. We judge them by the GALAXY's (not just humans, but all the species in the galaxy along with the Protheans and all their other victims) standards because they are actively harming us.

They are war criminals, and I will not judge a war criminal by their own standards.
Also, co-existence? Synthesis only allows "co-existence" by making us like them.
Do you get that? They stop when they turn us into them. How can you not see how sickeningly racist that is?

Oh my, can you stop making unfounded assumptions? How is the Synthesis *anything* like making Reapers? By making everything part Synthetic, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that. Well, then I say humans are like bacteria because both are organic. There was actually a famous movie villain who said that back in 1996.

There was a famous real life villian who said that we should accept a homogeneous race back in the 1940's. For the betterment of humanity, of course.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Oh my, can you stop making unfounded assumptions? How is the Synthesis *anything* like making Reapers? By making everything part Synthetic, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that. Well, then I say humans are like bacteria because both are organic. There was actually a famous movie villain who said that back in 1996.

They are not Reapers, but they are the same type of life form as Reapers, based on a combination of organic and synthetic.
The point is, the Reapers can only co-exist with us if we become this specific type of life form. That is not co-existence, that is domination.

[Cobra's_back]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

All species must be judged on their own merits. This does not apply when one species is ENSLAVING, TORTURING AND MURDERING all the others.
Get off your pseudo-philosophical high horse. We judge them by the GALAXY's (not just humans, but all the species in the galaxy along with the Protheans and all their other victims) standards because they are actively harming us.

They are war criminals, and I will not judge a war criminal by their own standards.
Also, co-existence? Synthesis only allows "co-existence" by making us like them.
Do you get that? They stop when they turn us into them. How can you not see how sickeningly racist that is?

+1

[Cypher_CS]

Jeez....

No, you aren't getting this.

It's not about Destroying the Reapers, it's about the Life in the ENTIRE Galaxy.
If you're a damn Xenophobe and just Renegade everything (don't be nitpicky here, just an extreme example) - then Destroy is your obvious choice.
Screw everybody. Let Dog sort them out.

If you're power hungry, then Control is the obvious choice for you. Isn't it?

It's not about the decisions Shepard made when faced with Reapers only, it's the overall themes.

Why are you thinking one dimensionally?
It's not about mirroring all your former choices against Geth on the next Geth choice. Or vs Asari on your next Asari related choice, and vs Reapers on your next Reaper related choice.
It's about all those decisions coming together.

[Ieldra]

DJBare wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, I am open to the idea of co-existence instead of destruction or enslaving. And you're judging the Reapers by human standards again, which is - recall the rewrite/destroy heretics comment from Legion - misplaced.

Sorry, but I have to say poor argument, at least from my perspective, it's not about assigning human values to the reapers, it's about making a judgement call on the entire galactic community, "ALL" species in the galaxy.

The more you say the more the destroy ending looks more appealing, do I destroy the EDI and the geth along with the reapers or do I impose my will upon the entire galaxy?

There is no indication at all that anyone loses their individuality or "free will" (as far as there is such a thing)