37 réponses à ce sujet

[JamieSI2]

http://www.strategyi...-dragon-age-iii

I wasn’t that excited about Mass Effect 3
to be honest, despite sticking it as my Number 2 Most Wanted Game of
2012. Every time a Bioware game came out in the past my Steam friends
list would light up with discussions about each one, but ME3? I’m the
only one who owns it. How has this happened? Two words and a Roman
numeral: Dragon Age II. Or, “The Day Bioware Ended Their Gold Streak”. It’s the Cars 2 of gaming.

[LeBurns]

Sadly I don't see BioWarEA being given the time to make any of those changes. I am still waiting on DAO2 myself.

[eroeru]

Something that doesn't exist does not need saving.

[brushyourteeth]

I didn't think the first Cars was all that great. Just saying.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

3: Go For The Epic

One thing Bioware does very well in its games, and a large part of why they are so popular, is that they do “epic” very well. You really feel like you’re part of a legend in the making, a huge world-shaking tale with devastating consequences, where you play the most vital role. It’s a wonderful feeling, and something that videogames – and in particular RPGs – do very well, and I’d argue that Bioware do this epic feel best.

Unless you’re talking about Dragon Age II of course, where you limp around a small city and the outer districts for a few years and have very little impact on the final events. Then fight a few statues. Still, events are unfolding nicely for a big decisive war between Mages and Templars (especially if you’ve read tie-in novel Asunder), and there’s still the events of Awakening and Witch Hunt to reconcile. Plus hopefully we’ll get to the Black City at some point…

There is no me. I don't play any meaningful role in DA 2. The bull**** role given to me was as an omniscient third person observer behind the curtain directing a character called Hawke. Therefore how can I be part of the legend or feel anything? If I am to play Hawke's role then why do I have watch Varric-Cassandra interrogation scenes? Why don't I have any knowledge of what already happened 10 years ago? How is it possible for me to be "gone like the warden?" What's with all the exaggeration? Why would I be presented with a story being told by third person narrator?

No. It's not about playing Hawke's role. It's about re-living the past of a character called Hawke. You are not part of any story. You are no one.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 23 avril 2012 - 05:24 .

[Zexiv]

Thanks for the link it was a good read and one I'd mostly agree with.

Take it easy

[Hammington]

I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?
How Varric tells the story depends on what you did in it, it's not like he tells it in its entirety and THEN we get to play it all out.
Somehow Bioware did miss the boat in making Hawke our own. But I don't think it's because of the third person perspective (again, DAO did the same, didn't they?) nor the narrative style. Those can be excecuted well, and would have worked methinks.

[Zexiv]

Hawke's background was locked in the only choices were Male/Female and class. Origins gave you Human Noble, Dwarf Noble, Dwarf castless, City Elf, Dalish Elf, and Mage (Huamn/Elf) all of which gave you the impression that you were starting a character and playing it through to the epilog where you heard about the characters choices etc rather than being narrated and not feeling like there was an ending.

I think the origins added options and the lack of the narrative helped feel more in control of your character in DA:O.

Take it easy

Modifié par Zexiv, 23 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think DA2 had nearly as much to do with ME3 not selling well as the atrocious word-of-mouth reviews it got for its endings.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't think DA2 had nearly as much to do with ME3 not selling well as the atrocious word-of-mouth reviews it got for its endings.

If VGChartz is anything to go by Mass Effect sold over 3.2 million copies and is still selling at a brisk clip. According to VGChartz it is the third fastest selling game globally. Whether you choose to believe their numbers.

Also negative word of mouth can have the opposite effect. Gamers start purchasing a game because they cannot believe all the hoopla and want to see for themselves whether ME3 ending is a train wreck even if you can see the ending on Youtube you still do not know how it got to that point.

Some gamers I have talk to bought the game for that reason and found that most of the game was excellent. Mind you these are gamers who had bought Mass Effect 1 and 2, but where put off at first by the negative word of mouth. Their curiousity go the better of them. They played the game and thought it was excellent. 

ME3 sales have little to do with DA2. Most of ME3 sales have come on the XBOX where the Mass Effect series started. If you bought ME1 and 2 you were mostly going to buy ME3. While there may be some crossover between ME3 and DA2 gamers I do not think it is enough to effect ME3 sales.

[Eilaras]

 Actually, they only need to do one thing- bring back everything to Origins-style. I enjoyed DA2, but still, Origins was the perfect game in my opinion. 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Hammington wrote...


I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?

How is it different?
In DAO, no one tells the story of Cousland or Aeducan or Mahariel or Amell. No one exaggerate my story. No one lies about how I look. I journey my own story without any moron trying to mess thing up and creating the sense of disbelief. The blight had just started and the story is not set. It's a journey of my character. It's about living my warden.

Whereas in DA 2, Varric tells the story of BioWare's Hawke. The Chantry had already fallen to pieces and the world is already at the brink of war. It's already set before I even begin the game. It's  a story been told. It's about imagining what BioWare's Hawke been up to in the course of 10 years from either Varric's or Cassandra's perspective. You technically don't exist in this setting. The main character of DA 2 is not you but Varric and Cassandra.

Hammington wrote...

But I don't think it's because of the third person perspective (again, DAO did the same, didn't they?) nor the narrative style

Every story is window of life. We look life through this window. It affects how we view things. In DAO it didn't screwed my perspective and perception. I could easily press "escape" button to skip Loghain-Howe-Anora conversation and it will not affect my warden's story. 

In DA 2, I can't remove Varric and Cassandra from my story. Because it's them who build the story's frame. Without their conversation's scenes, the story couldn't progress. 

Hammington wrote...

How Varric tells the story depends on what you did in it, it's not like he tells it in its entirety and THEN we get to play it all out.

No it isn't anything like that.  But It's affect every single choice and decision I made. Every single one of them were useless because it already set in stone. It already happen 10 years ago. Whether I helped The Magistrate's son or not made no difference. Whether I send Feyneriel to the circle or not, made no difference.  There was no way to twist the story.  It's fixed and railroaded like hell.
 

Hammington wrote...

Those can be excecuted well, and would have worked methinks.

No it wouldn't. The moment a third person open his mouth to tell you a story, the moment you play the omniscient third person observer's role and become an audience. It's the nature of third person storytelling. PLUS it's the nature of frame narraive to disconnect the audience to skip time and move plot elsewhere. None of this happen in DAO. 

Edit: Anyway, I'm glad to hear BioWare will most likely not going to adopt this "bug" in storytelling in DA 3. This kind of storytelling shoud have never exist in the first place because it disrupts story follow,  very disconnecting..and worst It justifies the need to use predefined character like Hawke in order to strengthen the narrative. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 24 avril 2012 - 02:11 .

[Dakota Strider]

Thanks for the link.
Agree with it all, especially:
Go for the Epic
Return to RPG roots.

[Sutekh]

Hammington wrote...

I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?

Beyond the obvious six different origins, you could play them very differently inside the same origin for the very reason you had an origin to begin with.

For instance, you could play a Tabris who killed the Evil Bann on sight, one who actually collaborated and betrayed his kin, or one who chose a middle-ground. This could lay the foundation for the whole roleplaying to come. Add to that simply being a City Elf, which won't play as a Noble, a Dwarf or even a Dalish, and you have a whole palette instead of a single color with nuances.

The problem with Hawke isn't really that's there's only Hawke, but that there's only one Hawke. Of course, you can play different personalities - and it's fine - but it's nowhere near different actions that can build the "structure" of the person you want to play.

[Cyne]

Nice list. Of those I'm pretty sure repeated environments will be fixed. One thing they didn't mention is the user interface. I HOPE they return to a more classic RPG one like in Origins. Compare:

DA:O



DA2:

Modifié par Cyne, 24 avril 2012 - 04:27 .

[Reznik23]

Yep, I'd agree with almost all of what's been said so far both in the linked article and this thread.

I'd like to suggest a couple more things as well:

There should be more, and more involved side quests & activities. On thing Skyrim did well (despite being pretty much unplayable on PS3) is that there was always something to do away from the main quest. Particulary smithing, enchanting & upgrading your own weapons & armour was an enjoyable and involving quest in itself. (Speaking of Skyrim, I also really did like the way it handled skill improving & levelling up - it felt a lot more natural & streamlined than more traditional methods.)

The combat still needs work. The fighting in DA2 just didn't "do it" for me. Without wanting to make too many other-game examples, the fighting in Demon's Souls & Dark Souls is really the benchmark for me now for gaming combat: simple but very enjoyable & satisfying. Don't know how much of this style could be incorporated into DAs tactical, squad driven mechanics but might be something to consider. Even if the combat went back to the style of DA:O but with improved auto attack - if it's good to watch that'll do me. It was pretty disappointing in DA:O to hear about the ancient Arcane Warriors and their magic powered melee mastery only to watch the auto attack just pounding the sword as if it was hammering in a nail. Weren't they supposed to be almost medieval/fantasy Jedi after all?

P.S. please bring back the Arcane Warrior...

Also when you are in a relationship with a party member, please no more sex scenes with underwear on. There has to be a better way if you don't want to show nudity - how about silhouetted figured backlit by a fireplace or something?

Lastly - a good name. Dragon Age: Origins... then Dragon Age: Awakening... then Dragon Age 2??


I'd really like DA:3 to be a game I play through 10 or 12 times like DA:O, rather than just once like DA:2

[Luigitornado]

Can't say that party customization is that high up there for me.

[Adanu]

Sutekh wrote...

Hammington wrote...

I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?

Beyond the obvious six different origins, you could play them very differently inside the same origin for the very reason you had an origin to begin with.

No, you cannot play them differently. The warden is a fixed character still outside the Origins. After the origins, you simply become the warden. There is minimial customization beyond that.

The idea that 'the warden is your own' more than Hawke is an illusion because people liked the presentation more.

[Sutekh]

Adanu wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Hammington wrote...

I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?

Beyond the obvious six different origins, you could play them very differently inside the same origin for the very reason you had an origin to begin with.

No, you cannot play them differently. The warden is a fixed character still outside the Origins. After the origins, you simply become the warden. There is minimial customization beyond that.

The idea that 'the warden is your own' more than Hawke is an illusion because people liked the presentation more.

In terms of mindsets, yes you can. There is the way the game reacts - which is how the world behaves and why - and there is the character's motivations, and how they "feel" things. In terms of roleplaying, you play differently. That's what I do, and that's how I experience the game.

Note that I never said "the Warden is my own". Not even remotely. There's simply much more permutations to play with.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Adanu wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Hammington wrote...

I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?

Beyond the obvious six different origins, you could play them very differently inside the same origin for the very reason you had an origin to begin with.

No, you cannot play them differently. The warden is a fixed character still outside the Origins. After the origins, you simply become the warden. There is minimial customization beyond that.

The idea that 'the warden is your own' more than Hawke is an illusion because people liked the presentation more.

It's minimal customization beyond origin, I agree. But still, you can get difference dialgue options for playing different gender. That's how I choose my Amber Cousland's dialogue. The dwarves still recognize my lady Aeducan judging from Harrowind's impression. Cousland's encounter with Howe at Landsmeet trigger special dialogue option. Cullen still recognize my Amell as his love interest even after becoming the warden  and not treated her as if she was Cousland or Aeducan..I wish there could be more response to all this customization. But  I doubt BioWare could write anything stellar. Therefore, DAO is good enough.  

Compare to Hawke? Hell, most people at Kirkwall can't even tell the difference between a mage and warrior/rogue  - even if you cast magic right in front of a merchant in broad daylight.

Warrior and Rogue Hawke was the worst case. They're only differentiated by their specializion, weapon and armor..   

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 24 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[seraphymon]

I couldnt agree more with the post in the link. Its all true, as for the 6 key things, i really couldnt understand the need to chase the ME franchise, other than to just be lazy or something i dunno, before DA2 was released.

Alot of stuff is always subjective, and split, even in the Devs minds. But from what im hearing so far of DA3, not sure how i stand so far.

[Chrumpek]

Adanu wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Hammington wrote...

I don't know. In DAO you were playing a Cousland, or an Aeuducan. How is that different than Hawke?

Beyond the obvious six different origins, you could play them very differently inside the same origin for the very reason you had an origin to begin with.

No, you cannot play them differently. The warden is a fixed character still outside the Origins. After the origins, you simply become the warden. There is minimial customization beyond that.

The idea that 'the warden is your own' more than Hawke is an illusion because people liked the presentation more.

Right....

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

#5 I agree with. #1 is dead wrong. #6 carries the promise of a snooze festival. Seriously, if games like DAO are so popular, where are all the clones? There aren't any.

[ScotGaymer]

I would agree with most of what he says save for the fact that he clearly has no fricking clue about Dragon Age, Bioware, or Mass Effect. Seriously.

He get's so much information blatantly WRONG that he completely undercuts himself and his arguement.

Oh dear.

"Don't Chase Mass Effect." I completely agreed until...
"Mass Effect outsold Dragon Age." WRONG! Dragon Age Origins outsold (cross platform not including Digital Download) both Mass Effect 1, & Mass Effect 2, and while the "final" sales figures of ME3 are not known yet I am fairly certain it will have outsold that too..

The second statement completely undermines that particular arguement because he gets it so very wrong.

"Get back to being a classic RPG." I agreed again, it strayed too far on towards the action side of things and failed as a result. Unfortunately...
"Little Character Customisation." WRONG! Again... There is only ONE thing we can not customise about Hawke, and that is his Race. Well his origin story too if you include that but most RPGs do not give the player control over the origin of the character.
Everything else is customisable. His face, his clothes, his class, his personality traits, his talents and skills. And so on.
Again he undercuts himself by being just outright wrong.

With 3 (Go For Epic) and 4 (Continue the Focus on Personal Stories) he outright contradicts himself by condeming DA2 for not focussing on an Epic Story in one and then congratulates BW for not focussing on an Epic Story in the next.

I could keep going but you guys get the point.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 24 avril 2012 - 08:59 .

[n0na90]

For one, the JRPG/anime look that's been creeping into DA 2. if I want my games to look ridicoulus and unrealistic I'll go Final Fantasy or some other classic, because damn those games do it so well. DA 2 does not. Fenris, for example, or the completely over-done combat animations. I mean, can't you do something that looks -cool- while still keeping it real? There's a billion movies/games/books so looking for some inspiration shouldn't be too hard..

I'd wish for the devs to give Skyrim and The Witcher 2 some looks. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it can't look -real- and -believeable-, doesn't mean it has to be boring either. If you're good, you can make something look really cool and epic while still real and immersive enough not to remind players they're playing a computer game every time they enter a fight or look more closely at some follower NPC's. Monsters & magic? No problem. Thin elves wielding massive greatswords and rogues jumping several meters here and there in the air? No thanks. Gritty, brutal and realistic please Improve here for DA 3