129 réponses à ce sujet

[DWH1982]

Honestly, they could have implimented exploration within the plot by adding one simple line from Hackett after Earth:

"Shepard, one more thing: To aid with the construction of the crucible, you have a mandate to search for prothean technology wherever you might find it."

And, with that, you have justification for exploring uncharted worlds, even in the middle of a war - and presumably stumbling on to side missions along the way.

[tractrpl]

This is why I miss ME1, and the mako *sobs*

[Pedrak]

SKiLLYWiLLY2 wrote...
My point is that people like to argue exploration (something non-linear to take a break from the main plot) has no place in ME3, due to what's unfolding in the plot, yet they don't mention that they really had no place in ME1 or ME2 either. And they worked in ME1 and ME2 so they can work in ME3 aswell.

Exactly. Frankly, this "Shouldn't the hero be doing something else?" thing is an inherent trope of all RPGs.

Why would the Bhaalspawn be frolicking around the Umar Hills or ruling the De Arnise Keep when his sister is rotting in jail and he has already the money needed to save her? Why would the Warden be searching for Sten's sword when the Darkspawns are slaughtering thousands? Why would Revan deal with a woman's missing "personal" droid when Darth Malak is etc. etc. And don't get me started on the romances... if time is so pressing, should Shepard bother doing the horizontal mambo with his LI?

Only a few RPGs have dealt with this creatively (Torment springs to mind: you never knew where you could stumble into clues about TNO's past, so even hanging around the Public Sensorium could be a good idea), and frankly I don't think it should even be considered a problem. It's an acceptable break from reality, a convention on par with having a hero able to survive a rocket to the face. Being able to "waste time" exploring and pursuing all the side-quests you want, even relatively unimportant and "frivolous" ones, instead of dealing with the looming main threat, is fine in a game - although in reality the hero would be a criminally irresponsible jerk - as it is simply more fun than being forced by the villains to respect certain deadlines.

Modifié par Pedrak, 23 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[DaJe]

Il Divo wrote...

SKiLLYWiLLY2 wrote...

What? You don't know where Saren is so you spend time going to planets to do things for Hackett, which have absolutely nothing to do with locating Saren? Right, that makes a lot of sense. It's not like you're going to those planets to look for clues on Saren either. For most of them, you're specifically told by Hackett what the situation is.

I'll let ME2 slide for now, even though one could say Shepard could have done more productive things (in terms of stopping the collectors) than visiting planets to stop some mercs or check out an old crashed freighter lol.

My point is that people like to argue exploration (something non-linear to take a break from the main plot) has no place in ME3, due to what's unfolding in the plot, yet they don't mention that they really had no place in ME1 or ME2 either. And they worked in ME1 and ME2 so they can work in ME3 aswell.

And because ME3 has no exploration or barely any side-missions (6 dull and similar side missions is all there are), the game feels too linear and the gameworld too "small." Especially, when you consider that all of the main plot/priority missions take place on after another.

I've always criticized ME1 for its implementation of exploration. The premise is "Race against Time", which really doesn't work in the context of exploration. I once actually did two back to back playthroughs of ME1, one with all the sidequests and one without any of them. It's pretty amazing how much the flow of the game is improved by the removal of barren planets.

But a game is not a movie. A game can give you the freedom to explore the fictional universe that is being given to you. And like you said, you can play it many times with different priorities.

In my first playthrough I enjoyed the story and the sense of galactic exploration no other game ever came close to deliver.

I like ME1 for neither being strictly linear nor being a pure sandbox game but a mix of many genres.

[The Milky Waver]

Revisisting planets and hubs like omega was cool in ME2. I agree on you with ME3 on being "small".

[Icinix]

simfamSP wrote...

DaJe wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

SKiLLYWiLLY2 wrote...

What? You don't know where Saren is so you spend time going to planets to do things for Hackett, which have absolutely nothing to do with locating Saren? Right, that makes a lot of sense. It's not like you're going to those planets to look for clues on Saren either. For most of them, you're specifically told by Hackett what the situation is.

I'll let ME2 slide for now, even though one could say Shepard could have done more productive things (in terms of stopping the collectors) than visiting planets to stop some mercs or check out an old crashed freighter lol.

My point is that people like to argue exploration (something non-linear to take a break from the main plot) has no place in ME3, due to what's unfolding in the plot, yet they don't mention that they really had no place in ME1 or ME2 either. And they worked in ME1 and ME2 so they can work in ME3 aswell.

And because ME3 has no exploration or barely any side-missions (6 dull and similar side missions is all there are), the game feels too linear and the gameworld too "small." Especially, when you consider that all of the main plot/priority missions take place on after another.

I've always criticized ME1 for its implementation of exploration. The premise is "Race against Time", which really doesn't work in the context of exploration. I once actually did two back to back playthroughs of ME1, one with all the sidequests and one without any of them. It's pretty amazing how much the flow of the game is improved by the removal of barren planets.

But a game is not a movie. A game can give you the freedom to explore the fictional universe that is being given to you. And like you said, you can play it many times with different priorities.

In my first playthrough I enjoyed the story and the sense of galactic exploration no other game ever came close to deliver.

I like ME1 for neither being strictly linear nor being a pure sandbox game but a mix of many genres.

How long has it been since you've played ME1? I can't really fathom how people see recycled wastelands as 'galactic exploration.'

I played ME1 weekend just passed. I love the Mako sequences. I never had a probelm with the controls either because its always brought up, but its that freedom. Its the shifty cows, its rolling over a hill and finding and abondned hut with music playing, its those moments seeing a sun through a snow storm. I really, REALLY love the Mako parts of Mass Effect 1. I didn't like the Hammerhead sequences because they felt more like solo races - and the absence of any type in ME3 bugs me - especially when we got turret sequences... can't stand turret sequences. Just my opinion though.

[AlanC9]

simfamSP wrote...
They have never said that. They said they are looking AT Skyrim, and the world will be bigger, but that doesn't mean 'exploration' that may mean more locations.

Oh, god..... you realize what's going to happen, right? Everyone's going to expect something really different in DA3, and then we'll hear all kinds of screaming when it isn't much different from DA:O's exploration.

[AlanC9]

DaJe wrote...
But a game is not a movie. A game can give you the freedom to explore the fictional universe that is being given to you.

Can, yeah. "Can" doesn't mean "should."

I've found RPGs with less exploratory freedom to be both better games and better RPGs. Of course, my expectations for RPGs were forged by PnP. If you think CRPGs are and ought to be based on different principles, then it's natural to want different things from them.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 avril 2012 - 10:48 .

[JyrikGauldy]

IMO me2 had the best exploration. I liked the "anamoly dectected" system. Some of the missions were kinda cool too, like the one where you have to stop these two missiles but you can only choose one..... neat stuff

[AlanC9]

Hello Man wrote...

Oh I so wished that the players focused more on this aspect than the endings. Glad people are starting to notice. Even though it was as long as the others it lacked depth.

Meaning that you can't choose what order to do the main quests in? That's "depth"?

[Fireblader70]

simfamSP wrote...

Fireblader70 wrote...

You say Bioware is moving away from free exploration in their games, but the Dragon Age team has said that their next project will be closer to Skyrim in terms of freedom to explore than their previous games.

Whether that actually happens is another matter, but at least they recognise that it's a nice touch. And if it goes well they may use it for other games, so I wouldn't make any solid conclusions about Bioware's future just yet...

They have never said that. They said they are looking AT Skyrim, and the world will be bigger, but that doesn't mean 'exploration' that may mean more locations.

As for ME... well how many times do I have to stress that ME1's 'exploration' was uninspired and plain awful. Why do you think they cut it out in ME2? If they were going to cut something as popular as that, they might as well as cut out romances too no?

Besides, ME's gameplay doesn't really suit exploration (well for me anyway.) If they made the enviroment more interactable...maybe. Something like how the Witcher 1 and 2 handles it would be perfect.

In what way does that negate my point? I said exploration may be closer to Skyrim than simply narrow corridors - I did not say that it would be exactly the same. None of us know what it truly means.

[The Spamming Troll]

Fireblader70 wrote...

You say Bioware is moving away from free exploration in their games, but the Dragon Age team has said that their next project will be closer to Skyrim in terms of freedom to explore than their previous games.

Whether that actually happens is another matter, but at least they recognise that it's a nice touch. And if it goes well they may use it for other games, so I wouldn't make any solid conclusions about Bioware's future just yet...

what bioware says isnt the same as what bioware does.

youd think thatd be something your already aware of.

bioware is the new peter monolauex. even tho i would never expect anything awesome out of fable. im confused why anyone over the age of 9 plays that game.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 23 avril 2012 - 10:51 .

[tanisha__unknown]

Mass Effect never had a focus on exploration. Mass Effect 3's exploration part is considered to be the best, not because it's so great but rather because it's less tedious than in the previous games. I don't miss it.

Actually I think, free exploration is rather found in games like the Elder Scroll's series where you can explore a huge world. On the downside, in such games, hte stories tend to be a rather
lacking.

[The Spamming Troll]

Jinx1720 wrote...

Mass Effect never had a focus on exploration. Mass Effect 3's exploration part is considered to be the best, not because it's so great but rather because it's less tedious than in the previous games. I don't miss it.

what??????

did you play ME1?

did you play ME3, too?????????

[MyKingdomCold]

What makes the lack of exploration worse, for me at least, is how you can buy the things in the Spectre office if you miss them during a mission.

[Wulfram]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

What makes the lack of exploration worse, for me at least, is how you can buy the things in the Spectre office if you miss them during a mission.

A lot of the things on those missions are ludicrously easy to miss.  That function of the Spectre office is necessary.

Though the ease with which you can miss those things is bad design in itself, for which Spectre requisitions is an ugly patch.

[Gatt9]

simfamSP wrote...

Fireblader70 wrote...

You say Bioware is moving away from free exploration in their games, but the Dragon Age team has said that their next project will be closer to Skyrim in terms of freedom to explore than their previous games.

Whether that actually happens is another matter, but at least they recognise that it's a nice touch. And if it goes well they may use it for other games, so I wouldn't make any solid conclusions about Bioware's future just yet...

They have never said that. They said they are looking AT Skyrim, and the world will be bigger, but that doesn't mean 'exploration' that may mean more locations.

As for ME... well how many times do I have to stress that ME1's 'exploration' was uninspired and plain awful. Why do you think they cut it out in ME2? If they were going to cut something as popular as that, they might as well as cut out romances too no?

Besides, ME's gameplay doesn't really suit exploration (well for me anyway.) If they made the enviroment more interactable...maybe. Something like how the Witcher 1 and 2 handles it would be perfect.

They cut it because Shooters don't have exploration and loot,  and they were far more interested in trying to attract TPS fans than they were in continuing to make RPG's. 

That's all it was.

Oh, god..... you realize what's going to happen, right? Everyone's going to expect something really different in DA3, and then we'll hear all kinds of screaming when it isn't much different from DA:O's exploration.

I strongly suspect you don't need to worry.  Between DA2 and ME3,  I strongly suspect there aren't that many people who are interested in DA3.  Especially since I'm sure it'll have all of EA's trademark "Market initiatives" in it.

[MyKingdomCold]

Wulfram wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...

What makes the lack of exploration worse, for me at least, is how you can buy the things in the Spectre office if you miss them during a mission.

A lot of the things on those missions are ludicrously easy to miss.  That function of the Spectre office is necessary.

Though the ease with which you can miss those things is bad design in itself, for which Spectre requisitions is an ugly patch.

Again, personally, I think the items should be easy to miss.  I like the idea of scouring an area to look for things.  At least it's better than ME 2 where the items are in plain view.  For example, the two item quests on Ilium had their items right next to the exits.  

[tanisha__unknown]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Jinx1720 wrote...

Mass Effect never had a focus on exploration. Mass Effect 3's exploration part is considered to be the best, not because it's so great but rather because it's less tedious than in the previous games. I don't miss it.

what??????

did you play ME1?

did you play ME3, too?????????

In fact I did. Mass Effect always combined great story telling and character development with crappy exploration. Clearly the latter one did not get much attention.

To clarify things: By I don't miss it I mean I appreciate that it does not take that much time to complete. In ME1 you spent A LOT of time driving the mako over some randomly (or so it appears) generated surface, looking for resources (which I quickly got bored of, never finished the quest), fighting some enemies in one of three possible dungeons on a dozens of worlds and spent still more time trying to find such things like matriach scripture or whatever they were called (only once recently to get the conversation option with Conrad Verner).
In ME2 I thought at first, wow, better exploration part, but only for the first 20 minutes. Thereafter it turned out hat harvesting planets was still more boring than endless mako rides. Besides, I liked the background of the side missions in ME1 better than in ME2, but that may be a matter of taste.

In ME3 it's not like: Oh, they finally made the exploration part interesting, but rather like: thank god, just scan a system, get caught, reload and get the assets quickly.

If exploration had been the key feature of the ME series, I would never even have finished the first game.

[The Spamming Troll]

^
define 'exploration' in ME3, without the words eavesdropping, and planet scanning.

i dare you.

for me, i LOVED being dropped out on a desloate planet with only a map and a simple objective. obviously they werent meant to be that awesome by my 17th or so playthrough, but ill always remember the feeling i had exploring in the mako in ME1. you should have realized the collection quests were pointless, sorry you followed through with those.

ME2s sidequests werent so much exploring as they were random tiny little adventures. from what i remember i liked all of them. but they didnt give me the same sense of scale that ME1s exploration offered.

ME3s exploration in non existant. unless you consider probing planet fetch quests as exploration. eavsdropping in ME3 is a lazy attempt at making sidequests. its not what i adn alot of fans expected ME3s sidequests to be, considering the 2 games before it. hell, one qiuck stop at the spectre terminal and i didnt even need to eavsdrop or probe. does that still count as exploration, when i dont explore?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[Cainne Chapel]

ME1 didn't have so much exploration, it was really just a palette shift and a geometry shift. It had the same 3 types of bases/dungeons etc.

While FUN at first, it gets REAL tedious as the side missions and planets didn't really have anything different going on it was loot this or kill that.

I thought thats what we DIDN'T like? It seems the tone changes depending on what aspect we're talking about here.

I liked the sidequests more in ME3 and ME2 because they actually had story related to them more than "random reaper artifact" or "pirate base" that ME1 had (Granted ME1 had good story related side missions as well).

But once again the exploration in ME1 was lackluster as the layout was just...clunky and uninspired. As much as I liked it at first by the time you got to the next wasteland you could tell they were really just more of the same.

IF they're going to do exploration it has to be more than just random terrain and bases. Barring that, what we got for N7 missions in ME2 and the side quests in ME3 fit the bill if they're not doing planet wide exploration.

and by ME3 side quests I dont mean the fetch time sink which was glorified easy planet scanning or the ME3 N7 shooting galleries. I mean the REAL side quests w/ story elements to them.