53 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

I absolutely loved Leandra, some people might have been annoyed from her unhappiness and constant greiving but that really made me feel sad. She was just so motherly hence her role as Hawke's mother, how she fell in love with Malcolm Hawke, defied her parents and ran away with Malsolm to Ferelden, birth and raise three children while constantly running from the templars her whole life then losing her husband and possibly two of her own children then her own life. That's the background information.

The relationship between Leandra and a diplomatic-minded Hawke is really special as how Hawke goes to extreme lengths to give her, her old life back as a noble and how Leandra still sees Hawke as her child. Then comes the moment where Leandra is given her old life back only for it to be cut short by mad blood mage and how she passes away in Hawke's arms.

[rapscallioness]

I loved Leandra, too. she was sooo Mom. She worried about everything your Hawke was doing. The company you kept; the Deep Roads; getting in the middle of the mage/templar thing.

Even telling my Hawke, "All I have to do now is find you a suitable husband.." Lol. I ran out of the mansion.

First time I played "All That Remains"---it was devastating. From the moment I heard about the Lily's, I felt like all the blood drained out of my body. Awful.

[dragonflight288]

I enjoyed her character but honestly wished she had been better implemented. Have a few more scenes with her rather than just the talk to her a couple of times we did. I just wish there was a sidequest where Leandra did set Hawke up on blind dates, with Hawke trying to get through the date while his/her companions go out of their way to spy on the date or even have the LI interest go out of his/her way to sabotage the date.

[TEWR]

Hard to say, considering I barely got to know her.

She's just there for a poorly implemented concept IMO. So I can't hate her nor can I like her. She's just.... data.

[Nerdage]

She could've used more screen time, but I find it pretty easy to accept that she's important to my character even if I don't know her that well. Like when Carver was first squashed by the ogre, my reaction wasn't "No skin off my nose, I barely knew him", it was "S***, my brother!". I'd grown to like her by act two though, when she breaks her melancholy. I genuinely rushed though All That Remains the first time, not even stopping to loot enemies as though that would make a blind bit of difference to the outcome.

I still think not allowing the player to save her somehow was one of the worst storytelling mistakes of DA2, up there with Orsino. I'd think it would've been a relatively low-impact (narrative wise) bit of choice and consequence, since nothing down the line really relies on her dying save the odd reference to her. Forcing the worst outcome on everyone to prevent some people meta-gaming for a better outcome sounds like the path to madness, not to mention linearity.

Modifié par nerdage, 23 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Faerunner wrote...

No offense to anyone here, but I absolutely hated the woman. Not because of her general grief or unhappiness. The woman lost her home and her kid to the Blight, that'll upset anyone. And to her credit, she genuinely loves her kids and wants what's best for them.

But Creators Above did I hate her entitlement complex. If she did anything else in Kirkwall besides **** and moan about how she was entitled to all of the wealth and prestige of her family name that she willingly abandoned years ago and never lifted a finger to maintain since then (even when her parents were dying), then I MIGHT have actually felt sorry for her or wanted to provide her old life back. But she didn't, so I don't.

That's a fair opinion. However, I took her desire to acquire the estate and be accepted back into Kirkwall society less as entitlement, and more as a deep and perhaps desperate desire for normalcy - for something that was familiar and (seemingly) stable.

What we know of her is that she left her old life behind for love, was on the run, raised a family, dealt with the loss of her husband, dealt with the Blight, was on the run again, lost a child... at that point, she is probably hoping beyond hope that she can settle back into Kirkwall and just learn to breathe again. But she arrives to find the family fortune gone, her brother living in squalor, and it's back to barely scraping by - and to watching her two remaining children struggle.

The estate, the status, etc are something tangible that she can work toward and grasp on to. She can't change fate, she can't turn back time, but she could possibly find a better dwelling, maybe give her children/child some place to live that isn't a shack. It's the only thing that she might feel she has some control over. 

I guess I never got the sense that it was the wealth or prestige that Leandra wanted back, but the stability that those things symbolized - no more running, no more threats. A tenuous bit of safety. And maybe it was all an illusion, but having lost so much, that illusion probably provided some comfort.

That's my take on it, at least.

[bleetman]

I liked Leandra just fine, right up until the whole "How could you let him run off like that! Your little brother!" thing about ten minutes into the game. Right, sure. Blame the death of one of your children on the other, who was in absolutely no position to do anything about it. Good job.

After that, I can't say I cared for her much.

[edit] Oh, and the whole Deep Roads thing. 'Don't take Bethany, please! It's too dangerous! I can't lose you both! You know, because you're probably going to die. So Bethany should stay home. You can totes go though. I am in no way implying you're expendable to me by only making a big deal over Bethany going, and not you'. Thanks, mom.

/single tear.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 avril 2012 - 10:59 .

[yetiawesome]

I didn't really like her. She just never really connected to her. Like when your little sister/brother died and she blamed you, I get tat. But she seemed awfully nonchalant when it came to saying sorry, and seeing as I found that one of the worst thing a human being could do especially a mother to her kid.

She seemed a bit like Denethor from Lord of the Rings and I tend to think she wasn't meant to be like him.

Additionally she seemed really passive for a woman who defied her family and married an apostate mage. Like I would of imagined her being the type of person to forcefully stalk the viscount or something, not just writing a letter.

[goofyomnivore]

I usually don't care much for family member characters in video games. They're just awkward especially on your first playthrough. I prefer the blank slate of meeting new people.

[GavrielKay]

I didn't really like or hate her. We never get to know her very well. She hands out guilt and apologies and by the time she gets a wee bit more cheerful it's because she's being courted by Frankenstein.

She felt more like a plot device to me than a fleshed out character.

[llandwynwyn]

I sorta liked her in my first play, then I played again.

Leandra is just awful. She seems to care more about the twins than Hawke and she expects Hawke, her child, to do everything and will blame her/him if she fails. Oh, and she won't work because, I guess, is beneath her. We also don't have many dialogues with her and, to be honest, Gamlen felt more like family than Leandra did.

[thats1evildude]

bleetman wrote...

[edit] Oh, and the whole Deep Roads thing. 'Don't take Bethany, please! It's too dangerous! I can't lose you both! You know, because you're probably going to die. So Bethany should stay home. You can totes go though. I am in no way implying you're expendable to me by only making a big deal over Bethany going, and not you'. Thanks, mom.

Leandra simply recognizes that her oldest child is completely death-proof.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2012 - 08:59 .

[thats1evildude]

Faerunner wrote...

I guess I can see your point, but my problem with Leandra is that she never actively worked for the things she wanted. There's nothing wrong with wanting stability for your family, but expecting other people to provide the stability for you and then chew them out when they don't give you what you want is not the right way to go about things in my book.

As I pointed out in the other thread, there was nothing Leandra could possibly do to recover the estate. Even if she got a job, it would likely take her several lifespans to come close to accumulating the wealth necessary to buy the place and fix it up. And even if she had the money, there was still the problem of the estate being occupied by slavers. SLAVERS.

Faerunner wrote...

But Leandra returned to Kirkwall fully expecting to have access to everything she abandoned many years ago, and continued to insist that she and her family deserved to have everything back no matter how many times everyone told her that it was gone and she needed to move forward without it. If she had decided to roll up her sleeves and find a way to get on without it or even get it herself, again, I would respect her immensely.

She didn't return to Kirkwall by choice. She was forced back there by circumstances far beyond her control, ie. the Blight. Was it really so out of the question for her to expect Gamlen to put up his sister and her family for a while, especially since Gamlen never informed Leandra that he had squandered the entire family fortune? Would getting menial employment resolved the issue of the templars hunting down her apostate child?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2012 - 09:27 .

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

I guess I can see your point, but my problem with Leandra is that she never actively worked for the things she wanted. There's nothing wrong with wanting stability for your family, but expecting other people to provide the stability for you and then chew them out when they don't give you what you want is not the right way to go about things in my book.

Leandra does state that she's petitioning the Viscount for an audience to get the rights back to the estate. Basically, she's handling the discussions that need to happen topside by a representative of the family while Hawke is securing the financial requirements.

I still think Hawke could've helped make the estate-acquiring issue move along easier if he had built up a few connections in Kirkwall that could've helped, but Leandra did do something to get the estate back.

And technically they weren't returning to the Amell Manor. They were planning on buying the Amell Manor and rechristening it the Hawke Estate.

So... new name, new deed, new everything. But for the same family, more or less.

I don't know how property ventures at this time period would've gone on or if that is correct, but that's how I see it.

And besides, despite Leandra having left the money and fortune behind years ago, it was still hers. Her parents left everything to her aside from a stipend to be given to Gamlen, and Gamlen decided that it was all his.

Did Gamlen deserve more? I'd say so, considering he took care of his parents. But he's the real criminal here, seeing as he stole what was legally Leandra's.

So while I find Leandra to be nothing more then data and not a character, her wanting what was hers is not something I can hold against her.

[TEWR]

I remember when I first played DAII I just knew that there'd be a quest involving Gamlen having had a kid long ago.

It was obvious, but nevertheless heartwarming.

I do think it's kinda bad though that I and my PC felt closer to the uncle I'd never met in my life until recently then I did to my own PC's mother.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[berelinde]

I felt a very strong antipathy toward her, actually. It started when she made one child responsible for the fate of the entire family. Yes, I do realize that's the point of the game, but it wasn't endearing. I found myself thinking "Thanks, mom. At least I know that if something goes wrong, you'll know who to blame." And ten minutes later, Bethany was dead and Hawke was proven to be prophetic. Rubbing it in when the family arrived at Kirkwall wasn't really necessary, but it made me like her even less. Yes, I found it easy to RP a Hawke that felt a strong sense of duty and obligation, but not a lot of actual love. By the time the apologies rolled around, it was too little, too late. During All that Remains, I remember wondering if I could interpret Hawke's expression to mean "I should be grieving right now. Instead, I'm wondering if you're at the Maker's side blaming me for being too slow. Thanks, mom."

[Karlone123]

berelinde wrote...

I felt a very strong antipathy toward her, actually. It started when she made one child responsible for the fate of the entire family. Yes, I do realize that's the point of the game, but it wasn't endearing. I found myself thinking "Thanks, mom. At least I know that if something goes wrong, you'll know who to blame." And ten minutes later, Bethany was dead and Hawke was proven to be prophetic. Rubbing it in when the family arrived at Kirkwall wasn't really necessary, but it made me like her even less. Yes, I found it easy to RP a Hawke that felt a strong sense of duty and obligation, but not a lot of actual love. By the time the apologies rolled around, it was too little, too late. During All that Remains, I remember wondering if I could interpret Hawke's expression to mean "I should be grieving right now. Instead, I'm wondering if you're at the Maker's side blaming me for being too slow. Thanks, mom."

Hawke gets blamed by a lot of people who he tries and helps like Aveline, Decimus' lover (mage who turns into a blood mage regardless if you let her free or not), Carver and just a lot of people.

[frostajulie]

Liandra constantly blames Hawke for the death of her other children or getting them taken away. I hated that ****

[Vendetta543]

Gamlen honestly felt more sympathetic compared to Leandra. "Faerunner" makes a point. Her dialogue, intended or not, really comes off as entitled and condescending. "My children should be nobility!" and others just make it seem like she expected the estate and wealth to wait for her when/if he ever came back.

On the other hand, Gamlen's lived a crappy life all around. His parents barely paid him any attention, he had to take care of both his parents when they had Cholera (Messy), and to rub it in his face the last word they spoke was "Leandra". Yes, Gamlen screwed up with the money, but the way he was treated I was expecting him to throw the Hawke family out on the street when they asked him for help.

There's also the fact that despite living in similar conditions to Carver, he never goes out of his way to antagonize Leandra. I half expected him to say "I hope that husband of yours was worth being a disappointment to the family name forever" but nope, no such comment.

[Gallimatia]

Faerunner wrote...

Gamlen uses his connections to get Leandra's family into the city and boards them in his house rent-free for over a year, and if the dialogue is anything to go by, she continues to complain about how his methods and his lifestyle isn't up to her standards long before she ever learns that he spent her inheritance. Her children deserve to be among the nobility, indeed!

Is it really so out of the question for Leandra to show a sliver of gratitude toward her brother for getting her into the city like she wanted instead of telling her to bugger off, or letting her family of three live in his tiny one-room house rent-free for over a year instead of telling her to find someplace else to live like she chose to do so many years ago? She chose to abandon her family and didn't come back when they needed her, only when she needed them, so I think it would have been very easy for him to tell her to get gone.

I think you're exaggerating Gamlen's virtues. Athenril and Meeran agreed to forgive Gamlen's debts to their respective organizations in exchange for the siblings work something you have to learn from them because he himself neglects to mention it. Could be he charged his family quite a bit for his connections giving them reason to expect additional help such as free room and board. I doubt the going rate for being smuggled into Kirkwall was anything close to two years skilled labour. This is what Leandra is referring to when she goes "You sold my children into servitude [had them work off your debts]! Now you're asking me to pay rent?".

Who the inheritance Gamlen squandered legally belonged to is immaterial to her. Either way it's her family's estate that is gone to settle another debt of Gamlen's. If anything I'd say it's to her merit how she holds him equally accountable for his wasteful ways whether he's wasting money that belongs to him, as she initially thinks, or money that belong to her, as turns out to be the case. That she doesn't angrier or more demanding towards Gamlen after learning of the will's true contents suggests to me she is looking out for the family as a whole. 

Modifié par Gallimatia, 25 avril 2012 - 03:05 .

[Vendetta543]

Always did wonder why Gamlen was never invited to live in the Hawke estate XD Maybe he was and had too much pride to accept it.