38 réponses à ce sujet

[augustburnt]

 After seeing what the ME3 design crew did to ME3, and more importantly the way they treated the fanbase (basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline) Maybe Laidlaw wasn't that bad. In fact I even respect him for listening to player feedback and addressing that there was a mistake. Any thoughts?

[Karlone123]

Admitting you made a mistake is worthy of respect, also correcting mistakes shows they do care which wins marks.

Modifié par Karlone123, 23 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[Zexiv]

I'll wait to hear what DAIII is like before deciding if it's good or bad. At least they have heard the fans on a few things and the presentation at PAX can leave you optimistic but I'll have to wait until a month plus after release to decide if I'll get it. In the meantime I'll be busy with Diablo III.

Take it easy

[Realmzmaster]

The DA Team has always listened. I respect them for that. Mike and company improved on the faults of DA2 with shows of improvement in the dlc. There are a lot of points in DA2 that I like. The team tried to do something different I respect them for that. Unfortunately they did not succeed as well as I would have like them to succeed.
I also understood why they stepped away from the forum for a while given the rarefied environment at the time. I give them respect for coming back to the forum after things had cooled down and engaging in constructive discussion.

I hope to see the faults of DA2 corrected and some of the favor of DAO return. I do not expect or want DAO2 or DA2. I will continue to voice my opinion in a constructive way and hope that some of what I say reaches their ears. I respect the DA team many were on the BG and NWN teams so I have a long history with them. They over the years have earned my respect and one game is not going to diminish that respect. I liked DA2 even through it is a rough unpolished products in parts.

[Servo to the bitter end]

augustburnt wrote...

 After seeing what the ME3 design crew did to ME3, and more importantly the way they treated the fanbase (basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline) Maybe Laidlaw wasn't that bad. In fact I even respect him for listening to player feedback and addressing that there was a mistake. Any thoughts?

They don't. The fallout from ME3's (and, arguably, DA2's) release is a textbook example for why they shouldn't.

I'm not defending ME3's ending. It's bad. They screwed up spectacularly in those last five minutes - harder than I would have ever thought possible. And they own it now.

I'm also not saying that fans shouldn't offer input (that's the whole purpose of this forum). They should. The developers and writers are then free to implement what is in keeping with their vision for the story/setting/mechanics and ignore what is not.

What I am saying is that if the majority of this forum had any creative authority when designing these games, they'd be awful.

That said (and speaking personally, here), DA2 is great. It's not perfect (neither was DAO), but the things that I care about most - writing, story, characterization - were goddamn stellar. I'd also hazard a guess that the developers are quite aware of where they went wrong, as well, so I doubt those mistakes will be repeated. But Laidlaw, Gaider, & Co. still have my full confidence, which, unfortunately, cannot be said of the Mass Effect team.

[atheelogos]

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

[atheelogos]

DP

Modifié par atheelogos, 23 avril 2012 - 07:38 .

[miniy2j]

The sole thing that I hated about Dragon age II, well two things, was the reused maps, and random spawning of more waves. That's actually about it. If they fix that, actually give me my X, amount of years, and don't rush the story-telling (Act III felt rushed to me) then I'm all for buying the third game. Tightening up the game mechanics, isn't exactly something that's hard to ask for either, and not being lazy with the animation (Tali home world where the rock suddenly turns invisible). All I want is for them to take their time, and tell the story that was always meant to be told. Do not get rid of your lead writer after the second game, and retcon nearly everything that was mentioned in the prior games. And if possible fix the animation for Elf heads, cause they kinda creeped me out. DAO, was excellent in some parts and boring in some other parts. DAII, should never have come out with reused maps, the greatest part of DAO was how huge the world felt. That's my personal opinion anyway, will I buy another bioware game, yes. I disliked the endings for Mass effect 3, but apart from the last five minutes it was an awesome game. DAII had it's moment, but fell short of expectations.

[augustburnt]

atheelogos wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

Incorect, you are the consumer. It isn't just your right, its your duty. When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 
Both ME and DA are games about choice, that choice is what drives the storyline. Not some writer that thinks he/they are to good for the player base.

[Hexedcoder]

Yes and No.

I like playing my games on PC so I can say with a large degree of certainty that DA II is worse than DA:O in every possible way with less developer and community created content making DA:O a far better value-for-money than DA II ever was or will be.

==HOWEVER==

I have also been playing PC-RPGs for a long time and can say that while in my opinion DA II is "subpar" I can't call it "bad" or "terrible" in a way where it contributes nothing to a enjoyable experience.  If someone told me they enjoyed the game, I could believe them and not fault them for it unlike several unmitigated pieces of garbage to ever grace your desktop PC.

[Realmzmaster]

augustburnt wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

Incorect, you are the consumer. It isn't just your right, its your duty. When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 
Both ME and DA are games about choice, that choice is what drives the storyline. Not some writer that thinks he/they are to good for the player base.

You really think you can take that agrument into a court of law? If there is a physical defect in a product (like the gas tank having the tendency to explode) you have recourse. Just because you do not like the ending of a game, book or movie that agrument will not fly. You have to show the potential for harm, then it falls under consumer protection laws. What you are talking about falls under creative license. 

Your assumption is that the product is defective and it is not. The product functions as intended.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 23 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[augustburnt]

Realmzmaster wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

Incorect, you are the consumer. It isn't just your right, its your duty. When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 
Both ME and DA are games about choice, that choice is what drives the storyline. Not some writer that thinks he/they are to good for the player base.

You really think you can take that agrument into a court of law? If there is a physical defect in a product (like the gas tank having the tendency to explode) you have recourse. Just because you do not like the ending of a game, book or movie that agrument will not fly. You have to show the potential for harm, then it falls under consumer protection laws. What you are talking about falls under creative license. 

Your assumption is that the product is defective and it is not. The product functions as intended.

Way to completely miss the point. Of course there wouldnt be a recall nor would any sane person try. You really aren't that bright.

[Servo to the bitter end]

augustburnt wrote...

When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 

augustburnt wrote...

Way to completely miss the point. Of course there wouldnt be a recall nor would any sane person try. You really aren't that bright.

Then what the damn were you saying in your previous post?

Edited the rest for the simple reason that I don't like what I wrote.

Modifié par TommyServo, 23 avril 2012 - 08:39 .

[Realmzmaster]

augustburnt wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

Incorect, you are the consumer. It isn't just your right, its your duty. When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 
Both ME and DA are games about choice, that choice is what drives the storyline. Not some writer that thinks he/they are to good for the player base.

You really think you can take that agrument into a court of law? If there is a physical defect in a product (like the gas tank having the tendency to explode) you have recourse. Just because you do not like the ending of a game, book or movie that agrument will not fly. You have to show the potential for harm, then it falls under consumer protection laws. What you are talking about falls under creative license. 

Your assumption is that the product is defective and it is not. The product functions as intended.

Way to completely miss the point. Of course there wouldnt be a recall nor would any sane person try. You really aren't that bright.

I would be very careful who you call not bright. I would consider not insulting me again. I do take offense.I said nothing in my response that was uncivil. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 23 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[augustburnt]

Realmzmaster wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

Incorect, you are the consumer. It isn't just your right, its your duty. When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 
Both ME and DA are games about choice, that choice is what drives the storyline. Not some writer that thinks he/they are to good for the player base.

You really think you can take that agrument into a court of law? If there is a physical defect in a product (like the gas tank having the tendency to explode) you have recourse. Just because you do not like the ending of a game, book or movie that agrument will not fly. You have to show the potential for harm, then it falls under consumer protection laws. What you are talking about falls under creative license. 

Your assumption is that the product is defective and it is not. The product functions as intended.

Way to completely miss the point. Of course there wouldnt be a recall nor would any sane person try. You really aren't that bright.

I would be very careful who you call not bright. I would consider not insulting me again. I do take offense.I said nothing in my response that was uncivil. 

Your attempt at sounding threatening... failed. I honestly dont even know at what you are trying to get at. But allow me to explain what I was saying.

When there is a major issue with a product and good produce will do what they can to keep customers. Bioware not only failed to do that they blatently said the the consumer was wrong. 80k to charity, 200 cupcakes and countless complaints, all ignored. Why I mentioned a recall was that is the ultimate form of product correction. Yes it usually requires a serious defect but the point remains that is an example of a producer realizing a flawed product.

[deuce985]

TommyServo wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

 After seeing what the ME3 design crew did to ME3, and more importantly the way they treated the fanbase (basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline) Maybe Laidlaw wasn't that bad. In fact I even respect him for listening to player feedback and addressing that there was a mistake. Any thoughts?

They don't. The fallout from ME3's (and, arguably, DA2's) release is a textbook example for why they shouldn't.

I'm not defending ME3's ending. It's bad. They screwed up spectacularly in those last five minutes - harder than I would have ever thought possible. And they own it now.

I'm also not saying that fans shouldn't offer input (that's the whole purpose of this forum). They should. The developers and writers are then free to implement what is in keeping with their vision for the story/setting/mechanics and ignore what is not.

What I am saying is that if the majority of this forum had any creative authority when designing these games, they'd be awful.

That said (and speaking personally, here), DA2 is great. It's not perfect (neither was DAO), but the things that I care about most - writing, story, characterization - were goddamn stellar. I'd also hazard a guess that the developers are quite aware of where they went wrong, as well, so I doubt those mistakes will be repeated. But Laidlaw, Gaider, & Co. still have my full confidence, which, unfortunately, cannot be said of the Mass Effect team.

This. I 100% agree with this.

If these forums had a game made 100% by them...it would be terrible. The only way to make a great game...a perfect balance of fan feedback and dev input.

[Maria Caliban]

"After the ME 3 ending, DA II's writing isn't half as bad as I thought it was."

That's kinda funny.

[Sidney]

In the end DA2 was a game with great intentions but deeply flawed execution.I'd love to see them revist it with the proper time to flesh out what didn't get done properly. I thought in a number of areas they improved greatly on DAO but they flubbed so many basic things: Kirkwall, reuse of areas, terrible looting/inventory management, combat waves that is washed away the good.

[Hexedcoder]

Sidney wrote...

In the end DA2 was a game with great intentions but deeply flawed execution.I'd love to see them revist it with the proper time to flesh out what didn't get done properly. I thought in a number of areas they improved greatly on DAO but they flubbed so many basic things: Kirkwall, reuse of areas, terrible looting/inventory management, combat waves that is washed away the good.

Toooooolllllllset?

[Realmzmaster]

augustburnt wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline?

Why would we have that kind of say? We're not the writers we're the audience.

Incorect, you are the consumer. It isn't just your right, its your duty. When any major product has serious issues there is a recall, the owner is given the choice of a refund or the ability to replace the product with a model that corrects the issue. 
Both ME and DA are games about choice, that choice is what drives the storyline. Not some writer that thinks he/they are to good for the player base.

You really think you can take that agrument into a court of law? If there is a physical defect in a product (like the gas tank having the tendency to explode) you have recourse. Just because you do not like the ending of a game, book or movie that agrument will not fly. You have to show the potential for harm, then it falls under consumer protection laws. What you are talking about falls under creative license. 

Your assumption is that the product is defective and it is not. The product functions as intended.

Way to completely miss the point. Of course there wouldnt be a recall nor would any sane person try. You really aren't that bright.

I would be very careful who you call not bright. I would consider not insulting me again. I do take offense.I said nothing in my response that was uncivil. 

Your attempt at sounding threatening... failed. I honestly dont even know at what you are trying to get at. But allow me to explain what I was saying.

When there is a major issue with a product and good produce will do what they can to keep customers. Bioware not only failed to do that they blatently said the the consumer was wrong. 80k to charity, 200 cupcakes and countless complaints, all ignored. Why I mentioned a recall was that is the ultimate form of product correction. Yes it usually requires a serious defect but the point remains that is an example of a producer realizing a flawed product.

I am not being threatening. I will simply report it and let the moderators decide on your intent. I do believe what you saiud about me violates the rules of conduct.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 24 avril 2012 - 01:09 .

[augustburnt]

deuce985 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

 After seeing what the ME3 design crew did to ME3, and more importantly the way they treated the fanbase (basicly saying the fans have no say in the ME3 storyline) Maybe Laidlaw wasn't that bad. In fact I even respect him for listening to player feedback and addressing that there was a mistake. Any thoughts?

They don't. The fallout from ME3's (and, arguably, DA2's) release is a textbook example for why they shouldn't.

I'm not defending ME3's ending. It's bad. They screwed up spectacularly in those last five minutes - harder than I would have ever thought possible. And they own it now.

I'm also not saying that fans shouldn't offer input (that's the whole purpose of this forum). They should. The developers and writers are then free to implement what is in keeping with their vision for the story/setting/mechanics and ignore what is not.

What I am saying is that if the majority of this forum had any creative authority when designing these games, they'd be awful.

That said (and speaking personally, here), DA2 is great. It's not perfect (neither was DAO), but the things that I care about most - writing, story, characterization - were goddamn stellar. I'd also hazard a guess that the developers are quite aware of where they went wrong, as well, so I doubt those mistakes will be repeated. But Laidlaw, Gaider, & Co. still have my full confidence, which, unfortunately, cannot be said of the Mass Effect team.

This. I 100% agree with this.

If these forums had a game made 100% by them...it would be terrible. The only way to make a great game...a perfect balance of fan feedback and dev input.

There is a middle ground and the way the ME3 devs are almost completely ignoring the fans is not it.

[Pallid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

"After the ME 3 ending, DA II's writing isn't half as bad as I thought it was."

That's kinda funny.

But it's true, compared to ME3 ending everything is getting slightly(or even not so slightly) better.

[LeBurns]

My problem with Mike is what made him follow the path used to make DA2 in the first place. What made him think that changing everything was a good idea? What made him think that everyone wants to play JRPG's? What made him think that removing all tactics from battle, replacing it with an awesome button, was a good idea?

Personally I think Mike is lost himself and doesn't really know what the fans of DA:O wanted. Otherwise he would not have been so far off the mark. Yeah yeah I know some people liked it, but I think it is safe to say that it is not what the DA:O fan expected and that many were not happy about it.

I do not think for a second however that Mike is going to be on track for DA3. He has created a real mess now as he knows that he really can't please those that liked DA:O's gaming style and those that like DA2's style (yeah yeah, again I know that some people liked both). If you haven't figured it out yet, I liked DA:O's style. The art style, the combat, the cut sceens, the romance, the inventory, etc. There are also a few things about DA2 that I can never accept in a game and still like it, the combat, the reused maps, the lack of epic story. I just don't see any hope for DA3 myself.

[Uccio]

I feel like I was out to buy another Mercedes SLS AMG Roadster like I previously have (DAO), but instead I got a Toyota Yaris (DA2) with the same price. Its a nice little car on its own and has practically most of the similar things Mercedes has. But.. its not a Mercedes.

Modifié par Ukki, 24 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[Unknown_Warrior]

If I recall, the DA2 team was 'Lalalala, you're just not getting it' the first few weeks too.
Oh well, good and the bad, no? I'm cautiously optimistic that DA3 will be apologetically good, since they can't ride on franchise popularity alone like they could for DA2.

Modifié par Unknown_Warrior, 24 avril 2012 - 06:30 .