226 réponses à ce sujet

[pfellahX]

count_4 wrote...

1) Most of these appalling things come from the fact that the BioWare leads lied straight to our faces. Even a week before release they came out and told us flat-out lies. And I'm talking huge lies here. I'm sure you know about the Rachni crap. If not, just read my sig.
Then there was the Final Hours app, again, have a look at my sig for a prime example.

That's the thing. A DLC can potentially fix a lot of things, and I'm willing to refrain from the "OMG the EC can't possibly fix <in-game issue XYZ>" until it releases and we see what it is. But there's a piece of this that is just broken and can't be fixed with 100 hours of free DLC, and that's that they substantially misrepresented the product they were selling in the leadup to release. You can't look at what they released honestly and say that it matches up with the gushing statements they were giving in the pre-marketing hype... you just can't.

And then they doubled down on stupid by saying things like "well we didn't know fans would want that". Seriously? You didn't know fans would want an ending where things make sense, your choices matter, and things were tied up well? Even though every high-level Bioware employee with skin in the game was running around pre-release telling anyone who'd listen that's EXACTLY what ME3 would be because that's what the fans expect?

Let me say that again for emphasis. Even after this thing was well into PR disaster territory, they still claimed to be ignorant that fans wanted exactly what they were hyping pre-release.

[Taboo]

Darth Asriel wrote...

OP- ok let's break this down. These are the same people who:
A) told us we were getting 16 different endings
B)told us the Rachni choice would have real consequences
C)gave Tali a stock photoshopped photo from google
D)gave Jessica Chobot a full 3D in game render
E)thought starchild was a great idea
F) thought an end game boss fight in a VIDEO GAME was too "video gamey"

Should I continue? What of these should earn them my trust? And they and EA releasedthat FAQ. Why release it if it isn't accurate? With every ing imploding around you, why release more incorrect information to your angry fanbase?

A) An unrealistic expectation and a serious error on Bioware's part.
I believe that Mr Walters has an issue with the amount of inference he wants people to have in his writing
C) Based upon what I know about Talimancers, it would be impossible to please everyone. Miranda doesn't have this problem
D) She asked for it and campaigned for it. I don't put any stock into her character because I don't like reporters and neither did my Shepard.
E) There are far, far worse things that have been introduced into plot lines to fix them. Would you like me to post about my original run in with a "God" Child?
F) I'm unsure how they would have implemented this. It's a silly thing for them to say but I don't see a reason why it was nescessary.

I never said you have to trust them. That has to be earned back from me as well as you. You do however need to show them the proper amount of respect. They ARE the reason you are here in the first place right?

[Taboo]

pfellahX wrote...

count_4 wrote...

1) Most of these appalling things come from the fact that the BioWare leads lied straight to our faces. Even a week before release they came out and told us flat-out lies. And I'm talking huge lies here. I'm sure you know about the Rachni crap. If not, just read my sig.
Then there was the Final Hours app, again, have a look at my sig for a prime example.

That's the thing. A DLC can potentially fix a lot of things, and I'm willing to refrain from the "OMG the EC can't possibly fix <in-game issue XYZ>" until it releases and we see what it is. But there's a piece of this that is just broken and can't be fixed with 100 hours of free DLC, and that's that they substantially misrepresented the product they were selling in the leadup to release. You can't look at what they released honestly and say that it matches up with the gushing statements they were giving in the pre-marketing hype... you just can't.

And then they doubled down on stupid by saying things like "well we didn't know fans would want that". Seriously? You didn't know fans would want an ending where things make sense, your choices matter, and things were tied up well? Even though every high-level Bioware employee with skin in the game was running around pre-release telling anyone who'd listen that's EXACTLY what ME3 would be because that's what the fans expect?

Let me say that again for emphasis. Even after this thing was well into PR disaster territory, they still claimed to be ignorant that fans wanted exactly what they were hyping pre-release.

You CAN fix it. It's possible. What we have here is something that they were forced to represent to the best of their abilities. Did you know that Michael Jackson was obligated to say he like Pepsi even though he didn't? When you are under contract ethics become sketchy.

[Benny8484]

OP I would like to believe your post as truth.  However, Jennifer Hale hasn't even been contacted.  In other words, its over.  They are going to slap some cutscenes together, call it art & pretend the following atom bomb of a response doesn't happen.

Modifié par Benny8484, 23 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Darth Asriel]

OP- respect is earned never given. I respect them as human being and sentient beings. I recognize they're rights. But as writers, and devopers? How can you after this? As to your counterpoints:
A)they were the ones tooting that horn, not us. 1st rule of business don't see over promise and under deliver.
B)I will concede his point
C&D)were meant to show a lack of judgement. In hindsight I probably should have made them one point. But to bring it home, no one cared about Chobot. More people wanted to see quarians.
E)you're right worse thatstRchild was his pseudo logic. Shep condemns TIM for wanting control. Mordin rages about synthesis in ME2(his No soul, replaced by tech speech. And they present Hess as the best options. They abandon the themes of the series to try to get artsy.

[Taboo]

Benny8484 wrote...

OP I would like to believe your post as truth.  However, Jennifer Hale hasn't even been contacted.  In other words, its over.  They are going to slap some cutscenes together, call it art & pretend the following atom bomb of a response doesn't happen.

Yeah,mate you seriosuly need to get off the forum and look at what's been posted. Miss Hale has not been contacted two weeks after this debacle BEGAN. The information that was released in said article was about something that she said two weeks PRIOR. 

Check your facts.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 23 avril 2012 - 08:50 .

[Taboo]

Darth Asriel wrote...

OP- respect is earned never given. I respect them as human being and sentient beings. I recognize they're rights. But as writers, and devopers? How can you after this? As to your counterpoints:
A)they were the ones tooting that horn, not us. 1st rule of business don't see over promise and under deliver.
B)I will concede his point
C&D)were meant to show a lack of judgement. In hindsight I probably should have made them one point. But to bring it home, no one cared about Chobot. More people wanted to see quarians.
E)you're right worse thatstRchild was his pseudo logic. Shep condemns TIM for wanting control. Mordin rages about synthesis in ME2(his No soul, replaced by tech speech. And they present Hess as the best options. They abandon the themes of the series to try to get artsy.

I'm not talking about respect as developers. I'm talking about respect as human beings. They have to earn my trust again. Don't ever believe that they don't.

Artsy and bad writing go hand in hand. The ending to me looks like something I would have seen from a first year film student who wanted to be smart. It lacks cohesion and is too reliant upon information that isn't there. And and the overuse of symbolism. 

[Darth_Trethon]

Benny8484 wrote...

OP I would like to believe your post as truth.  However, Jennifer Hale hasn't even been contacted.  In other words, its over.  They are going to slap some cutscenes together, call it art & pretend the following atom bomb of a response doesn't happen.

It's not as clear cut as that....a lot of things get cut during development and at some point I'm sure they had decent endings planned plus other levels. Shep would probably not have a whole lot to say in the new scenes and there's sure to be plenty of unused recorded dialogue from cut content. Plus it doesn't take long to tack on audio files to the finished content so they may also wait to be further into development before recording so they know exactly what, if anything, needs to be recorded.

[Taboo]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Benny8484 wrote...

OP I would like to believe your post as truth.  However, Jennifer Hale hasn't even been contacted.  In other words, its over.  They are going to slap some cutscenes together, call it art & pretend the following atom bomb of a response doesn't happen.

It's not as clear cut as that....a lot of things get cut during development and at some point I'm sure they had decent endings planned plus other levels. Shep would probably not have a whole lot to say in the new scenes and there's sure to be plenty of unused recorded dialogue from cut content. Plus it doesn't take long to tack on audio files to the finished content so they may also wait to be further into development before recording so they know exactly what, if anything, needs to be recorded.

I saw a tweet from Hale saying that she would be there for Bioware. She IS aware of what is going on. Oh, and Meer has said that he too is contracted to do more.

The implications..........

[Darth Asriel]

OP- we can agree on that. Although artsy and bad writing don't always go hand in hand. It is very possible to go to for a philosophical ending. But that has to be earned, and set up over the course of your tale. Those require setup and nuance. ME was never a deeply philosophical game. If I had to put a point on it, I would say how it's about putting aside differences for a common goal. And that if enough people can do this, they can achieve the impossible. ME3 abandons that in theist 10 minutes for a discussion on humanism. And it's hasn't earned that.

I hope the EC truly FIXES this. I have my doubts. I have enjoyed debating with you.

[Taboo]

Darth Asriel wrote...

OP- we can agree on that. Although artsy and bad writing don't always go hand in hand. It is very possible to go to for a philosophical ending. But that has to be earned, and set up over the course of your tale. Those require setup and nuance. ME was never a deeply philosophical game. If I had to put a point on it, I would say how it's about putting aside differences for a common goal. And that if enough people can do this, they can achieve the impossible. ME3 abandons that in theist 10 minutes for a discussion on humanism. And it's hasn't earned that.

I hope the EC truly FIXES this. I have my doubts. I have enjoyed debating with you.

What really rustles my jimmies. I mean REALLY rustles them is that they believed they need to be more philosophical than they were already being. I hope you read this devs. Your game was 100X more philosphical than most of the crap produced in the West today.

Understand this Bioware.

As for a fix. I don't know if that's the right word without more info BUT I do think the result be something similar. A finger to plug the hole in dam so to speak. The hole is still there but at least more water won't leak through.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 23 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[KingKhan03]

EC DLC fixes the ending cool. BioWare and how they lied pre-release not cool. Regardless of what happens I don't think I will see BioWare in the same way ever again.

I am willing to wait for EC DLC but in simpler terms, It's not a good look BioWare.

Modifié par KingKhan03, 23 avril 2012 - 09:08 .

[Taboo]

KingKhan03 wrote...

EC DLC fixes the ending cool. BioWare and how they lied pre-release not cool. Regardless of what happens I don't think I will see BioWare in the same way ever again.

An unfortunate outcome for some. I want Bioware to know that I'm just sad over this debacle. I'm not angry. Frustrated but never angry.

[-Spartan]

What is more than likely going on now at BW/EA is that they are waiting it out. Given EAs past history and PR actions it would be the most prudent business thing to do as everyone on the that side probably figures the zenith blow back wise has been reached and things will slow down and fade away naturally.

Short of the tempo of the community's ire increasing and changing the game (no pun intended) that will surely transpire. It is for this reason people need to double down on things. The price of EA stock hit its lowest point in about twelve years the other day. It is on that front we need to push things.

Consequently, we need to keep emailing and calling newspapers, journals, magazines (especially business and investment oriented organizations), and TV stations -etc... as well as continue posting to all kinds of websites, forums and social networks. If the stock price keeps dropping they will change their plan of (in)action. That is the only way we will get a proper ending - either to the game or EA executive management once and for all.

[KingKhan03]

Taboo-XX wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

EC DLC fixes the ending cool. BioWare and how they lied pre-release not cool. Regardless of what happens I don't think I will see BioWare in the same way ever again.

An unfortunate outcome for some. I want Bioware to know that I'm just sad over this debacle. I'm not angry. Frustrated but never angry.

I don't have anger it's just disappointment really. ME2 was so good maybe my expectations were too high.

Modifié par KingKhan03, 23 avril 2012 - 09:10 .

[Taboo]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

EC DLC fixes the ending cool. BioWare and how they lied pre-release not cool. Regardless of what happens I don't think I will see BioWare in the same way ever again.

An unfortunate outcome for some. I want Bioware to know that I'm just sad over this debacle. I'm not angry. Frustrated but never angry.

I don't have anger it's just disappointment really. ME2 was so good maybe my expectations were too high.

I look at it like a parent would a child. I know Bioware can do better.

[KingKhan03]

Taboo-XX wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

EC DLC fixes the ending cool. BioWare and how they lied pre-release not cool. Regardless of what happens I don't think I will see BioWare in the same way ever again.

An unfortunate outcome for some. I want Bioware to know that I'm just sad over this debacle. I'm not angry. Frustrated but never angry.

I don't have anger it's just disappointment really. ME2 was so good maybe my expectations were too high.

I look at it like a parent would a child. I know Bioware can do better.

Haha that is a great way to look at it.

[Taboo]

-Spartan wrote...

What is more than likely going on now at BW/EA is that they are waiting it out. Given EAs past history and PR actions it would be the most prudent business thing to do as everyone on the that side probably figures the zenith blow back wise has been reached and things will slow down and fade away naturally.

Short of the tempo of the community's ire increasing and changing the game (no pun intended) that will surely transpire. It is for this reason people need to double down on things. The price of EA stock hit its lowest point in about twelve years the other day. It is on that front we need to push things.

Consequently, we need to keep emailing and calling newspapers, journals, magazines (especially business and investment oriented organizations), and TV stations -etc... as well as continue posting to all kinds of websites, forums and social networks. If the stock price keeps dropping they will change their plan of (in)action. That is the only way we will get a proper ending - either to the game or EA executive management once and for all.

No. The implications of what you are suggested would be an incredibly dumb thing to do? Have you taken into account that the higher ups can't trash the game. That they can't say anything bad about it? Do you understand how things like this work? Brad Pitt cannot come out and trash a movie he made (he did once and got into trouble) because the contract says so. 

What is nescessary now is concrete support, something that Bioware can use. Your endings sucks, I want a new one does not help them.

[Taboo]

Dominus Solanum wrote...

Just going to quote myself since I already commented in this kind of thread recently:

Dominus Solanum wrote...

They said straight up before the game was released your choices made through out the game will affect the ending.

They said straight up in the release announcement for the Extended Cut your choices made through out the game will affect the ending.

They said straight up they believe in the artistic vision of the ending and that they won't be changing it.

Which of these statements do you think will prove to be accurate? What exactly are you expecting from the EC? Because if it's something monumental, ground breaking or satisfying I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

What I "expect" is for it to simply be more palatable. What we have right now gags me before it reaches my mouth.

[-Spartan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

What is more than likely going on now at BW/EA is that they are waiting it out. Given EAs past history and PR actions it would be the most prudent business thing to do as everyone on the that side probably figures the zenith blow back wise has been reached and things will slow down and fade away naturally.

Short of the tempo of the community's ire increasing and changing the game (no pun intended) that will surely transpire. It is for this reason people need to double down on things. The price of EA stock hit its lowest point in about twelve years the other day. It is on that front we need to push things.

Consequently, we need to keep emailing and calling newspapers, journals, magazines (especially business and investment oriented organizations), and TV stations -etc... as well as continue posting to all kinds of websites, forums and social networks. If the stock price keeps dropping they will change their plan of (in)action. That is the only way we will get a proper ending - either to the game or EA executive management once and for all.

No. The implications of what you are suggested would be an incredibly dumb thing to do? Have you taken into account that the higher ups can't trash the game. That they can't say anything bad about it? Do you understand how things like this work? Brad Pitt cannot come out and trash a movie he made (he did once and got into trouble) because the contract says so. 

What is nescessary now is concrete support, something that Bioware can use. Your endings sucks, I want a new one does not help them.

The implication is very clear and pragmatic for that matter. It seems you dont understand the business environment to be frank so lets agree to disagree. You do your thing and I'll keep doing mine. 

 

Modifié par -Spartan, 23 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[DangerousPuddy]

OP,

You don't know anything. Just like the many posts saying "ME3 will be great, mark my words I saw the demo!" look at them now...

I'll reserve judgement for myself, when it is released.

[Taboo]

-Spartan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

What is more than likely going on now at BW/EA is that they are waiting it out. Given EAs past history and PR actions it would be the most prudent business thing to do as everyone on the that side probably figures the zenith blow back wise has been reached and things will slow down and fade away naturally.

Short of the tempo of the community's ire increasing and changing the game (no pun intended) that will surely transpire. It is for this reason people need to double down on things. The price of EA stock hit its lowest point in about twelve years the other day. It is on that front we need to push things.

Consequently, we need to keep emailing and calling newspapers, journals, magazines (especially business and investment oriented organizations), and TV stations -etc... as well as continue posting to all kinds of websites, forums and social networks. If the stock price keeps dropping they will change their plan of (in)action. That is the only way we will get a proper ending - either to the game or EA executive management once and for all.

No. The implications of what you are suggested would be an incredibly dumb thing to do? Have you taken into account that the higher ups can't trash the game. That they can't say anything bad about it? Do you understand how things like this work? Brad Pitt cannot come out and trash a movie he made (he did once and got into trouble) because the contract says so. 

What is nescessary now is concrete support, something that Bioware can use. Your endings sucks, I want a new one does not help them.

The implication is very clear and pragmatic for that matter. It seems you dont understand the business environment to be frank so lets agree to disagree. You do your thing and I'll keep doing mine. 

 

Yes I do. I work in a similar enviroment. When an audience doesn't like something the easiest solution is to provide something that is more pleasent. 

As for PR all the messages that have sent out have been from EA, the one is out to make the profit. It is correct that are doing what they are doing to make money but it doesn't matter.

Word of mouth > Critics

That's how these things work. People will believe a friend over a critic simply because a critic's opinion is too impersonal. Critics are used by companies to sell their product games or otherwise. You shouldn't be surprised when they plaster hype on something. They are also not surprised when they don't make money because all the critics in the world could not silence the people who talked to their friends.

[Oldbones2]

LucasShark wrote...

I have to disagree:

From where I sit, the extended cut is far from an appology: it's a stalling tactic. It's doubling down on the rubbish which currently exists without fixing the core problems. This is like painting over a crack in the hull of your space shuttle: it'll look nice for a while, but it will come right back arround to cause more damage than the original problem did. And you can bet whatever vital orgin you choose that the only reason it isn't being charged for is because they'd have people wanting to drink an EA executive's blood by the time that announcement went out.

This ^^^

[Taboo]

DangerousPuddy wrote...

OP,

You don't know anything. Just like the many posts saying "ME3 will be great, mark my words I saw the demo!" look at them now...

I'll reserve judgement for myself, when it is released.

No, I don't "know" anything in a definitive sense. But I do know what facts I have been presented with and have made educated guesses based on those assumptions.