226 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

It is sad. It's weird for me to be doing this. I should be sitting back in awe of Mass Effect 3 should have been. Alas........

But I refuse to spend my time here making petty threats and grousing all day.

[Cadeym]

"Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over."

Modifié par Mouseraider, 24 avril 2012 - 02:04 .

[Degs29]

I agree with the OP in some regards, but disagree in others.  I don't believe the BW employees to be cold, heartless money-grabbers.  They are hurting over this debacle.  I feel really, really bad for them.  Especially considering 99% of the series is stellar.  They deserve an untold amount of thanks, but instead they are getting wave after wave of criticism.

That said, this criticism is warranted.  Arguably the biggest problem with the ending is the choices themselves.  Yet, it seems they aren't touching them.  As someone so eloquently put it last week, what they seem to be doing is like polishing a turd, hoping to create a gem.  You could solve every other problem with the ending, and people still won't be happy with those three choices.  However, fix the choices and all the other problems are less significant.  There would still be problems, but most people would think it was a vast improvement.

They seem to be offering some kind of closure in this EC that will act as an epilogue for the galaxy, your allies, your squadmates and your LI.  Even that won't be satisfying though.  Not unless they leave us in a galaxy worth the closure.

[Taboo]

Degs29 wrote...

I agree with the OP in some regards, but disagree in others.  I don't believe the BW employees to be cold, heartless money-grabbers.  They are hurting over this debacle.  I feel really, really bad for them.  Especially considering 99% of the series is stellar.  They deserve an untold amount of thanks, but instead they are getting wave after wave of criticism.

That said, this criticism is warranted.  Arguably the biggest problem with the ending is the choices themselves.  Yet, it seems they aren't touching them.  As someone so eloquently put it last week, what they seem to be doing is like polishing a turd, hoping to create a gem.  You could solve every other problem with the ending, and people still won't be happy with those three choices.  However, fix the choices and all the other problems are less significant.  There would still be problems, but most people would think it was a vast improvement.

They seem to be offering some kind of closure in this EC that will act as an epilogue for the galaxy, your allies, your squadmates and your LI.  Even that won't be satisfying though.  Not unless they leave us in a galaxy worth the closure.

I think about it in context and it's rather terrfying. This hasn't happened before at least not in this capacity. The expectations are sky high and the price of failure is, well monstrous. No one is really going to win in this scenario but I think a great many of us are going to be able to forget should certain things happen.

The large net casting is the most economical ending I can think of and one that would certain bandage the wound. The demand for things like blue babies is a large net that can be cast out. From an economic standpoint that's what I'd do and it's what directors, producers and developers have done in the past. It will never, ever fix the biggest holes but at least they will be less visible.

[Kunari801]

Taboo-XX wrote...

An eight hour meeting where I come from would result from something like legal implications or censorship. That isn't what's happening here but I can possibly imagine...........eight hours.

I mean I would sit in front of the MPAA and argue for my R rating for something like two hours but eight........my God.

He didn't say it was for the EC.  But I can hope it could be they were reviewing all the materials they'd made so far.  Peer review of scripts and storyboards to pick the best.. Hopefully they get budget for more VO work becuase I believe it'll need it to fix the illogic of Star-brat. 

[Taboo]

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

An eight hour meeting where I come from would result from something like legal implications or censorship. That isn't what's happening here but I can possibly imagine...........eight hours.

I mean I would sit in front of the MPAA and argue for my R rating for something like two hours but eight........my God.

He didn't say it was for the EC.  But I can hope it could be they were reviewing all the materials they'd made so far.  Peer review of scripts and storyboards to pick the best.. Hopefully they get budget for more VO work becuase I believe it'll need it to fix the illogic of Star-brat. 

No he didn't but I seriously doubt they would be spending eight hours discussing a Retake Omega DLC. Think about what Bioware's biggest issue is and then apply it to the situation.

Eight is a long time......even for lawyers in legal deliberation.

[elegolas1]

op gave me hope... doubtful hope but hope nonetheless

[Taboo]

elegolas1 wrote...

op gave me hope... doubtful hope but hope nonetheless

That's all I can really do.

An update about PR tomorrow? Maybe.

[ReXspec]

elegolas1 wrote...

op gave me hope... doubtful hope but hope nonetheless

"Without hope, we might as well be machines... programmed to do what we're told."

Watch and wait.  That's all we can do at this point.

[Sashimi_taco]

I just want a better ending, but I don't know if I should hope for that anymore.

[Taboo]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

I just want a better ending, but I don't know if I should hope for that anymore.

Sashimi? That's sliced sushi yes? Don't know if I could eat a taco. Unless your name implies something else....

Anyway I always try and look at it from the perspective of a bad film. It can't possibly get worse.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 24 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[Cobra's_back]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I do not believe that Casey Hudson has resemblance to Snidely Whiplash. Why do I think they care? Because someone who didn't wouldn't take four or five months to make something for you and not charge you for it.

Goodness.

Very good point.

[survivor_686]

Well said OP

[Reciever80]

Makrys wrote...

YES. Actually I DO think they care. You know why? Because they have cared since the beginning. The changes made to ME2, those were asked for by the FANS. The better combat, simpler inventory (though they scrapped it entirely which I was fine with), and more focus on relationships, ALL were met in ME2. Then people wanted more of the RPG elements in ME3. Bioware delivered with a good mix between the first and second game. People also wanted more guns and customization options... so, Bioware put in gun modding as well as numerous weapons. Bioware has also listened to the fans regarding their DLC. Many people wanted to see a DLC for Liara in ME2 considering her character got a short end of the stick, and had no opportunity to continue a romance with Shepard. Bioware listened and followed suit with the best DLC I have ever played to date. 

^^

I can't imagine what it would have been like to work at Bioware, eagerly anticipating all of the feedback from the game, and have the overwhelming response the ending did. I probably would take a day or two off just to get away from it. The ending really wasn't great. Literally my first reaction was an empty disappointment, which followed insane confusion as to my 3 choices to make, and then thinking that "of the thousand ways they could have ended this series, this is probably the wierdest way they could have done it." I left ME3 with completely different feeling about the games than I had with any other part of the three games. It was wierd. But I would never bash anyone at Bioware because it makes no sense, and obviously there's no intent from anyone to purposefully make a bad ending to a game.

That being said, I'm going to really scrutinize that ending DLC in the summer. There's nothing I hate more than false advertising (being lied to, and betrayal are the only things that really ****** me off), so more than likely I'm not buying another Bioware game, unless it's used.

They do care, though. I'm positive that they do.

Modifié par Reciever80, 24 avril 2012 - 03:05 .

[Taboo]

Does anyone know how long it took for the Shadow Broker DLC to be developed?

[frypan]

Speculation Warning!!

Eight hour meeting suggests Mike Gamble is reviewing content rather than just the broad EC approach itself.

While the attention from the top is good, is it a good thing to have senior managment involved in content decisions, or would is this just caution on his part?

All speculation, but there's precious little else to do on the topic at the moment!

[-Spartan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

What is more than likely going on now at BW/EA is that they are waiting it out. Given EAs past history and PR actions it would be the most prudent business thing to do as everyone on the that side probably figures the zenith blow back wise has been reached and things will slow down and fade away naturally.

Short of the tempo of the community's ire increasing and changing the game (no pun intended) that will surely transpire. It is for this reason people need to double down on things. The price of EA stock hit its lowest point in about twelve years the other day. It is on that front we need to push things.

Consequently, we need to keep emailing and calling newspapers, journals, magazines (especially business and investment oriented organizations), and TV stations -etc... as well as continue posting to all kinds of websites, forums and social networks. If the stock price keeps dropping they will change their plan of (in)action. That is the only way we will get a proper ending - either to the game or EA executive management once and for all.

No. The implications of what you are suggested would be an incredibly dumb thing to do? Have you taken into account that the higher ups can't trash the game. That they can't say anything bad about it? Do you understand how things like this work? Brad Pitt cannot come out and trash a movie he made (he did once and got into trouble) because the contract says so. 

What is nescessary now is concrete support, something that Bioware can use. Your endings sucks, I want a new one does not help them.

The implication is very clear and pragmatic for that matter. It seems you dont understand the business environment to be frank so lets agree to disagree. You do your thing and I'll keep doing mine. 

 

Yes I do. I work in a similar enviroment. When an audience doesn't like something the easiest solution is to provide something that is more pleasent. 

As for PR all the messages that have sent out have been from EA, the one is out to make the profit. It is correct that are doing what they are doing to make money but it doesn't matter.

Word of mouth > Critics

That's how these things work. People will believe a friend over a critic simply because a critic's opinion is too impersonal. Critics are used by companies to sell their product games or otherwise. You shouldn't be surprised when they plaster hype on something. They are also not surprised when they don't make money because all the critics in the world could not silence the people who talked to their friends.

Exactly. And in regards to stock prices, the same mechanic is also in play. Now getting the "solution" that we want is not in the cards at this point. I would be astonished if the directive came from BW at least the BW of old. It is far more likely it came from EA the master of BW since the merger. So using basic political theory, putting pressure on EA from "above" (shareholder value) and hopefully pressure from below via BW maybe the situation might change.

You see the executive management at EA are not gamers and practically all of them come from other industries such as the food and beverage (like the current CEO). Consequently they operate from that paradigm looking at games production as something akin to food on an assembly line. However games – great games, can’t be produced that way or if they have I’ve not played them.

The assembly line production model or “McGame” philosophy EA as well as Acti and Ubi have been forcing on the developers the past decade or so simply fails. It might work on simple, limited interactive action based titles aimed at a youth market but not RPG, MMO and other complex interactive products. Believe me I would love to be wrong but I’m an empiricist and my experience and knowledge about the industry history leads me to conclude otherwise.

Games are labors-of-love they are crafted works of art. EA simply fails to understand this truth and has history of purchasing great developers and sucking the soul out of them and leaving the remains in a boneyard after an appropriate financial bump. That is the “cycle” which must be broken. The most efficient way to do that is to have the executive board replaced or the company become so weak price wise that another company will take it over and make changes that way.

Modifié par -Spartan, 24 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[Omega Torsk]

I sense a lot of wisdom in your topic, OP.

From my perspective, I dunno... I'm torn. I want to believe that Bioware is truly trying to make it up to their fans and are using the current PR strategy to avoid invoking the wrath of EA on one hand, but on the other hand... I can't help but feel insulted at the current PR being fed to us. They're using the word "artistic vision" like it's supposed to justify what they did... but it doesn't; it just adds salt to the wound.

I dunno, I guess I'm still feeling the burn of being "betrayed" by these endings. Bioware said we'd get one thing and didn't get it. They also said we wouldn't get another thing, but got it anyway. And not even a month before the darn game got released! And this wasn't some third-party article taken out of context, this came directly from one of the men responsible for implementing the ending in the first place!

I'm at the point where words are not going to fix this. I'm going to have to see, this time.

I just hope Bioware realizes that me and many others are really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and really want to trust them, again... I have a shred of optimism for this ending. I know that a couple months production by the entire Mass Effect team isn't going to give us a few cutscenes and some dialogue thrown in right before the credits. I'm hoping that Bioware still has some surprises for us and are trying to reach out to their fans again, by giving us actual closure and taking our legitimate criticisms into account...

But like I said, I'm gonna have to see this DLC to believe it... at this point, PR is just going to aggravate me...

[chemiclord]

People keep harping on "artistic vision" like is a curse word.

It's the power to tell your story how you want to tell it. Nothing more. It's not a shield to protect yourself from criticism, nor is it an arrogant dismissal of fans. If Bioware believes in the concept of the ending they have, "artistic vision" or "artistic integrity" isn't an excuse not to change anything because they hate the fans. It's a simple fact that it's their story (not yours) and they will tell it how they wish.

If you don't like it, you are free to walk away and have nothing to do with them ever again. If enough people walk away, they may decide that their livelihood is more important than their "artistic integrity", and their next game will reflect that. Or they won't and their company withers on the vine.

It's really quite simple. If you absolutely loathe the Catalyst, think it's utterly broken and cannot ever be reconciled no matter what Bioware's writing team does... just leave right now. Because it's not going away no matter how much you pray or cry or rage about it. Do everyone (and do yourself) a favor, and just walk away. It's not worth the anger. No game ever is.

I'm sorry if that sounds cold or dismissive. Because I don't intend it to be. The level of bile and venom and outright scorn that has flown around this forum... just isn't worth it. Everyone who has hated it has said their piece. If Bioware wasn't listening the three million times people have complained, then they aren't going to listen now.

[bahamutomega]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Darth Wraith wrote...

The most impressive part about this is how you clearly have firsthand knowledge of what's happening inside BioWare. That is totally awesome. Reading your post is almost like being present in the room with the devs.

All I had to do was read a post by Michael Gamble. A relatively easy way to make an inference.

Oh and about the Blizzard ID.......that I wasn't aware of.

RealID was bigger, but had to do with the game company / our privacy

the Retake Mass Effect 3 movement was between game company / our endings, their promises, their commitment to our feedback

OP - excellent post, and i agree with everything you said, although i think you should separate your bit about respect:  i will repect his rights as a human being.  i don't have to respect him as a writer (for now).

i'm all for waiting for the EC and seeing what comes of the ending.

[goose2989]

I'll mostly agree with you OP, but I am going to remain skeptical simply because I don't want to be emotionally scarred again. I do agree that Bioware will essentially retcon much of the ending without actually admitting it or making new ending choices. The endings are so vague that they allow Bioware to make seemingly drastic changes, without actually making changes. Many of the statements made by Patrick Weekes give me hope in this ( galactic travel with FTL, the Citadel having emergency sections, no one starves, etc.) While I don't completely trust the things Bioware employees are saying now, I realize that EA's PR is clamped down so tightly on Bioware that its employees would't be saying ANYTHING they know can come back to bite them in the ass. Lying about galactic rebuilding or Shepard reuniting with his LI and squad would only enrage fans to new levels and truly hurt Bioware's long-term goals and reputation

Thanks for the read, OP.

[Necrotron]

Yes, I fully support treating Bioware employees with respect.

It is pretty clear that the guidelines by which they are producing the extended cut won't please any of my peers or aquaintences who hated the Mass Effect ending, so all the 'wait and see' doesn't help them any.

Maybe it will fix the ending for a percentage of folks, but given what they are trying to accomplish and how they've stated they're going about it, I find it unlikely it will save the franchise for a large portion of folks.

[xsdob]

I like this post. This human understands.

[Persephone]

Makrys wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Makrys wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

I have to disagree:

From where I sit, the extended cut is far from an appology: it's a stalling tactic. It's doubling down on the rubbish which currently exists without fixing the core problems. This is like painting over a crack in the hull of your space shuttle: it'll look nice for a while, but it will come right back arround to cause more damage than the original problem did. And you can bet whatever vital orgin you choose that the only reason it isn't being charged for is because they'd have people wanting to drink an EA executive's blood by the time that announcement went out.

No one knows because NEWFLASH it isn't out yet. All of the absolutes being made about the EC is ridiculous because we don't know what they are doing. Speculation is fine, great even! But stop with the "They are" or "They are not". WE DO NOT KNOW. They are playing it very close to the chest.

We will know when summer rolls around and we are all in better moods because school is out, and/or its beach time. Bioware is sneaky. Appealing to our surrounding situations.

Oh please: you think they care about how you feel?  Bioware/EA have already demonstrated the existing fanbase's mental well being is hardly their concern: it took them over 3 weeks to admit the people upset with the ending were more than 5 "entitled" nerds in basements.  They actively silenced writers, rigged review sites, and called in every media favour I can think of.

YES. Actually I DO think they care. You know why? Because they have cared since the beginning. The changes made to ME2, those were asked for by the FANS. The better combat, simpler inventory (though they scrapped it entirely which I was fine with), and more focus on relationships, ALL were met in ME2. Then people wanted more of the RPG elements in ME3. Bioware delivered with a good mix between the first and second game. People also wanted more guns and customization options... so, Bioware put in gun modding as well as numerous weapons. Bioware has also listened to the fans regarding their DLC. Many people wanted to see a DLC for Liara in ME2 considering her character got a short end of the stick, and had no opportunity to continue a romance with Shepard. Bioware listened and followed suit with the best DLC I have ever played to date. 

There are numerous other occasions, but for sake of time, and my fingers burning because of how fast I am typing this, I will end there. Bioware has been known listening to their fans and taking their input. To somehow suggest that all of the sudden now they simply don't care, is both ludicrous and pathetic. If they didn't care they wouldn't even bother with an ending DLC. Maybe it was planned from the beginning, maybe it wasn't. But the fact is they ARE doing it for the fans. So please, take your pessimistic view somewhere else. Bioware has always tried to listen to their fanbase. I have not lost faith in them yet, even though the ME3 endning was absolutely atrocious. I trust they have some sort of plan in all of this. If not, then my opinion of them will greatly change. But until then I will CHOOSE to hold on to hope. Like Shepard.

+1

[CSMone01]

bahamutomega wrote...
RealID was bigger, but had to do with the game company / our privacy

And on the plus side, once people started complaning about it, they relented on it.

Modifié par CSMone01, 24 avril 2012 - 06:55 .