226 réponses à ce sujet

[Belisarius09]

waiting to see it before i make my judgement.

[dorktainian]

sorry my judgement was made as soon as I saw the 'DLC' announcement screen at the end of the game... I mean WTF?? yeah give us a rubbish ending then rub it in by saying 'well it kinda doesnt have to be that way....as long as you give me 10 quid for a proper resolution'.

Any company that screws over its clients in that way deserves all the bad publicity and criticism it gets.

[AtreiyaN7]

LucasShark wrote...

I have to disagree:

From where I sit, the extended cut is far from an appology: it's a stalling tactic. It's doubling down on the rubbish which currently exists without fixing the core problems. This is like painting over a crack in the hull of your space shuttle: it'll look nice for a while, but it will come right back arround to cause more damage than the original problem did. And you can bet whatever vital orgin you choose that the only reason it isn't being charged for is because they'd have people wanting to drink an EA executive's blood by the time that announcement went out.

And I have to disagree with you. But since I'd rather do something fun instead of reading the same boring and repetitive complaints, I'll leave it to others to argue with you if they want.

[Johcande XX]

OP seems to be incredibly optimistic and forgiving, a far better person than I.

The extended DLC is not an apology in a sincere fashion. It's an apology as a means to an end. They needed the heat from the media to die down, so they'll make a peace offering; also, they needed a way to quiet down the rabid fanbase's negative comments.

I don't see any way of really cleaning up the mess that the endings made without drastically changing them, and since that was exactly what they said they weren't doing, it's a safe bet that this will not be well received by the fans.

[MrFob]

First of all, we won't know anything specific until we've seen the EC so of course and by definition anything in this thread is ... you guessed it, speculation.

Here is mine: I agree with the OP's points for the most part because they make the most sense IMO. Am I happy if things happen in this way? No!
I am especially repelled by the "hopeful image for the future" part. Unfortunaey it is the one I am most certain it's going to happen because - as the OP says - it's marketable, it will quiet down most fans and it's good for the franchise (actually they already hinted at it at PAX)
So they are going to start explaining away one problem at a time. Most people n the citadel survived somehow, the relays will be rebuilt and in general everyone lives happily ever after. I have two problems with this:
1. The explanations will probably be even more ridiculous than the ending itself (especially the combination of both will be ridiculous)
2. If the final scenario is a "happily ever after" than the ending is even more pointless than it is now and they should just get rid of it (by retcon or IT). If you make a depressing ending only to have it all repair itself later, it makes no sense. Either you make a depressing ending and you stick to it or you don't do it in the first place.

So if my speculation comes true I won't be happy at all. I am still hoping that I am wrong though.

Modifié par MrFob, 24 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[majinbuu1307]

You had me at mustache twirling villains lol props.

[SimonTheFrog]

Belisarius09 wrote...

waiting to see it before i make my judgement.

As it has been said before: when the DLC is finished it's too late to find out it's broken.
We need to make BioWare understand NOW what kind of DLC would solve this mess.

Everything they have said about the DLC sofar only makes things even worse.
There is hope that their statements differ from what they actually plan for various reasons. But it is more reasonable to assume that they meant what they said.

And that means they stick to the ****ty ending and just add nice scenes afterwards without explanation how the hell that happened.
The image i used before is ME3 as a beautiful girl. Somebody chopped off her nose, though. The fans, understandably, suggest plastic surgery. But what BioWare offers is a bit of lipgloss.
You know, that's sweet and all, we all like full sensual lips. But as long as they don't pay for plastic surgery the beautiful girl will stay mutilated.

[cantido21]

look, they said the EC is not going to change the endings, only going to be cutscenes, and will only add closure. I very much believe that when it releases we'll all be back here sitting and reminding them that we all wanted a yellow ending. My faith left this company, and this is a permanent scar that will keep me from every buying their stuff again.

[MrGone]

I'm guaranteeing that it will include better ending cinematic differentiation. Patrick Weekes mentioned in that one interview that he felt this was a big problem - AND IT IS.

I mean, even people I know who like the ideas of the ending(s), still admit that the execution was as sloppy as a dog having sex with dog prostitute. A Dogstitute.

So, we're going to see - at least - noticable differences between Control, Destroy, and Sythesis. I'm guessing each will go on further from where they stop.

In Synthesis, we'll probably get some more explanation on exactly how the hell that's supposed to work, ideally some visual redesigning that isn't just "Green overlays" on everything, because that . . . is lame plain and simple. If you're going with the idea, commit to it. Give EDI more Organic hair and patches of skin perhaps. Give Joker robotic like legs.

In Control, actually show how Galactic society is sort of OK, perhaps exactly how Shepard is controlling the Reapers. Also, there's a good chance for variation here: perhaps in one Shepard keeps the Reapers around forever, possibly eventually succumbint to the idea of Galactic Genocide policing, in another, Shep immediately controls the Reapers into the nearest star systems, making the Sacrifice full, but actually eliminating the threat. 

Also epilogues make a lot of sense in the control ending, most folks are alive after all, and society's still pretty much OK. Also, the Crucible still exists, so at least there's no immediate extinction event on Earth.

In destroy, since Shep can be alive, a LOT could be done to add onto it. You'd have to address how Shep doesn't die from the exploding Citadel station, but there are ways for that to work.

Also, while they're at it, they should probably just add in some way for the Reapers to win and have a cool alternate game over - "The Cycle Continues" ending. Seriously, the more endings they add the less hatred there is, and this is something that actually, you know - makes sense to have.


So yeah, I expect all that. Also probably for us to be able to talk to the Catalyst kid more. Even Walters initially had it so you could, nixing that was a supremely bad call though. People need to be able to ask that kid about stuff, if only to better understand what he's asking the player to do.

Now does this solve all the prolems with the ending? 

No. Not at all. The mere use of this kid is a poison. Only total removal will suffice to not have the end of the game be anything less than compromised.

But that's probably not going to happen.

As it is. I'll enjoy my free cinematics with my second character. Mostly I play ME3 for MP these days anyway. The story's dead to me. And no amount of "extended cut" unless it reworks ALL of Priority: Earth, gives me a boss fight, eliminates the kid, and delivers whatever ending they want in a non idiotic way will change that.

The entirety of that mission is pretty awful.  It isn't just a cutscene thing.

[ReXspec]

As I previously implied, Bioware is making a decision between the lesser of two evils:

Talking down to fans and smashing any hopes for a DLC that actually adds any closure.

-or-

Going into a PR "siege-mode" giving a short blurb on what the EC is going to be (despite the 100% chance that nothing in the EC is concrete or developed at this point) and then falling silent.

Bioware chose the latter. While it is the best of the two options, it's still the lesser of two evils and has had some serious side effects such as fan outcry (although considerably LESS of an outcry versus what would happen if Bioware said there is no possibility of adding or taking away anything to the ending) and endless speculation and desperate straw-grasping because THAT IS ALL WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

So fans are using personal and past experience with the company and the games (among other things) to justify assumptions. It's not wrong, but an inevitable side-effect of the PR decision Bioware is making right now.

If Empirical evidence has shown me anything about Bioware, it is that they listen to their fans. Sure, I'd like a short blurb from the staff in Bioware about where the EC is at right now, but the best I can do is hope and continue to base speculation on what Bioware has done in the past.

I'd REALLY like to think that Bioware isn't going to do something like the ending to ME3 again.

[Taboo]

Johcande XX wrote...

OP seems to be incredibly optimistic and forgiving, a far better person than I.

The extended DLC is not an apology in a sincere fashion. It's an apology as a means to an end. They needed the heat from the media to die down, so they'll make a peace offering; also, they needed a way to quiet down the rabid fanbase's negative comments.

I don't see any way of really cleaning up the mess that the endings made without drastically changing them, and since that was exactly what they said they weren't doing, it's a safe bet that this will not be well received by the fans.

They needed the heat to die down and so they introduced the EC as a compromise. Unfortunately the issue was not explained in any real capacity and has caused a great deal of confusion among people including myself. People need to be aware that the reaon Bioware has not made an announcement about what it contains because they don't really know either.

I'll make an update later today (busy now) about some PR relations that I did for MUBI.com in the wake of Lars von Trier's Antichrist.............with predictable results.

[ZombieJohn84]

jzzr1303 wrote...

Are we proud of the game we made and the team that made it? Hell yes. Are we going to change the ending of the game? No.

http://blog.bioware....3-extended-cut/

End of history. Still hopeful though

I think this is important.  Anyone still clinging to hope that they're actually going to make some significant changes to the ending needs to read this link again.

Quote: 
Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future?

• No. BioWare strongly believes in the team’s artistic vision for the end of this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned.

Why are you releasing the Extended Cut DLC?

• Though we remain committed and are proud of the artistic choices we made in the main game, we are aware that there are some fans who would like more closure to Mass Effect 3. The goal of the DLC is not to provide a new ending to the game, rather to offer fans additional context and answers to the end of Commander Shepard’s story.

I'm also really getting tired of hearing these video game companies talking about "art" this and "art" that.  Being "artistic" is like being "cool," if you talk about it too much and/or draw too much attention to it, it ceases to exist.  You can't be cool by walking around saying, "I remain committed and proud of how cool I am.  I also strongly believe in the cool vision of who I am."

[Dnayew]

Since people are so freaked out about wating for the DLC or waiting to hear from Bioware, they should just freeze themselves and have a trusted friend unfreeze them when the DLC comes out.

There's no possible way that could backfire, say being attacked by atheist sea otters.

[-Spartan]

-Spartan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

What is more than likely going on now at BW/EA is that they are waiting it out. Given EAs past history and PR actions it would be the most prudent business thing to do as everyone on the that side probably figures the zenith blow back wise has been reached and things will slow down and fade away naturally.

Short of the tempo of the community's ire increasing and changing the game (no pun intended) that will surely transpire. It is for this reason people need to double down on things. The price of EA stock hit its lowest point in about twelve years the other day. It is on that front we need to push things.

Consequently, we need to keep emailing and calling newspapers, journals, magazines (especially business and investment oriented organizations), and TV stations -etc... as well as continue posting to all kinds of websites, forums and social networks. If the stock price keeps dropping they will change their plan of (in)action. That is the only way we will get a proper ending - either to the game or EA executive management once and for all.

No. The implications of what you are suggested would be an incredibly dumb thing to do? Have you taken into account that the higher ups can't trash the game. That they can't say anything bad about it? Do you understand how things like this work? Brad Pitt cannot come out and trash a movie he made (he did once and got into trouble) because the contract says so. 

What is nescessary now is concrete support, something that Bioware can use. Your endings sucks, I want a new one does not help them.

The implication is very clear and pragmatic for that matter. It seems you dont understand the business environment to be frank so lets agree to disagree. You do your thing and I'll keep doing mine. 

 

Yes I do. I work in a similar enviroment. When an audience doesn't like something the easiest solution is to provide something that is more pleasent. 

As for PR all the messages that have sent out have been from EA, the one is out to make the profit. It is correct that are doing what they are doing to make money but it doesn't matter.

Word of mouth > Critics

That's how these things work. People will believe a friend over a critic simply because a critic's opinion is too impersonal. Critics are used by companies to sell their product games or otherwise. You shouldn't be surprised when they plaster hype on something. They are also not surprised when they don't make money because all the critics in the world could not silence the people who talked to their friends.

Exactly. And in regards to stock prices, the same mechanic is also in play. Now getting the "solution" that we want is not in the cards at this point. I would be astonished if the directive came from BW at least the BW of old. It is far more likely it came from EA the master of BW since the merger. So using basic political theory, putting pressure on EA from "above" (shareholder value) and hopefully pressure from below via BW maybe the situation might change.

You see the executive management at EA are not gamers and practically all of them come from other industries such as the food and beverage (like the current CEO). Consequently they operate from that paradigm looking at games production as something akin to food on an assembly line. However games – great games, can’t be produced that way or if they have I’ve not played them.

The assembly line production model or “McGame” philosophy EA as well as Acti and Ubi have been forcing on the developers the past decade or so simply fails. It might work on simple, limited interactive action based titles aimed at a youth market but not RPG, MMO and other complex interactive products. Believe me I would love to be wrong but I’m an empiricist and my experience and knowledge about the industry history leads me to conclude otherwise.

Games are labors-of-love they are crafted works of art. EA simply fails to understand this truth and has history of purchasing great developers and sucking the soul out of them and leaving the remains in a boneyard after an appropriate financial bump. That is the “cycle” which must be broken. The most efficient way to do that is to have the executive board replaced or the company become so weak price wise that another company will take it over and make changes that way.

@OP - maybe you missed my reply to your post given you responded to one long after this one. 

[leapingmonkeys]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I know that in some capacity the higher ups on the ME3 has either verbally or at least thought to themselves. "How the **** are we going to remedy this?" To believe that the ME3 staff and Bioware are a bunch of mustache twirling villains a la Dudley Do Right (Problem Canadians?) is just ridiculous. To believe that they have no feelings and no concept about what is going on is ludicrous. Hudson, Gamble, and Walters made a big mistake and I mean a BIG one. It is impossible to believe that they are now aware of what is going on and that they do not understand the implications of what is going on.

Here's the problem - Bioware's responses to date have not supported your claim that they care about the customers at all.  The responses have been overwhelming aimed at marginalizing the customers who were complaining, claiming that they are a "vocal minority", labeling the complainers as "entitled whiners" and similar rhetoric.  They have repeatedly made very concrete statements that they will not change anything just because customers are complaining.

They have, at every turn, shown nothing but distain for their customer base.

They could have issued statements to the effect of "We understand that there is discontentment regarding the current content of ME3.  We value our customer base and are gathering feedback from them at this time.  On such-and-such a date, we will make a decision regarding what changes are feasible that could address our customer feedback."  This would show respect for the customer base and indicate that they are concerned.

All that Bioware has done to date is to promise to release "claryfing" DLC content, which would appear to be nothing more than a bunch of post-ending cut-scenes.  Asides from not addressing the primary complaint about ME (namely that prior decisions have no impact on the game - that irespective of what one has done or how one has played the game, one is railroaded into a singular ending with a nihilistic esthetic) this also probably reprsents a minimal expendure of effort on their part.  I strongly suspect that they are simply dusting off and polishing up cut-scene footage that they already had that was simply never completed and released with the game.

As a paying customer, I really don't care whether Bioware is proud of themselves or not (a common theme in their announcements).  I really want them to deliver on what the paying customers are asking for.

[Taboo]

 In response to Company control Spartan.

You are correct in some capacity. I cannot offer an opinion directly on game development interference because I am not as familiar with it. I AM familiar with stuido interference on a film level and I can certainly make allusions.

In the sixties and seventies a great amount of control was given to film directors. This "Golden Age of Directors" gave us such illuminaries as Brian De Palma, Martin Scorsese, Ridley Scott and Francis Ford Coppola. At this time free reign was allowed in most situations allowed for what I consider to be the greatest decade of American film. We were given such masterpieces as The Godfather, Taxi Driver and Alien. This were allowed to be created because studio allowed directors free reign over what they did (Can you believe that Al Pacino made the Paramount Executives nervous?) and risks were made. Whole new areas of cinema opened up here and some of the most mature, thought provoking films came from these directors. Unfortunatley the era of the director would come to an end with one of the notorious events in film history. Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate.

Michael Cimino was a director with two films under his belt by the time he was given free reign over his project, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot and The Deer Hunter. The Deer Hunter was a smashing success winning the Best Picture Oscar in in 1979 (and presented by a very perturbed John Wayne). This success gave Cimino access to all the funding that he needed to make his dream project, Heaven's Gate. It quite literally blew up and destroyed an entire movement in cinema and forever ruined Cimino's professional career. Cimino you see had a bit of an ego problem at the time and was notorious on set for his perfectionism. At one point he literally took an entire shooting day to film a one second reaction shot of Kris Kristofferson. ONE second. He demanded that entire sets be torn down and replaced and zealously shot footage that was not nescessary. According to information available enough footage was shot for the final battle in film that it alone could have made a movie. This overblown mess was delivered to the Studio who were of course shocked. They decided to release it anyway and the film was a failure, critically and commercially. This failure brought the end to the directors era and forever ruined a great chance for anyone but the studio to have control.

The reason control was taken away from individuals and handed to big companies after Heaven's Gate was released because investors were scared they would have another screw up like Michael Cimino. Unfortunatly this control seems to have gone to their heads and a vast majority of films today are controlled by studios. Ridley Scott is a great example of a victim of studio control. One of his best films, Blade Runner was marred by the studio and was significantly tarnished on release (he has since rectified that). A more recent example of one of his films that was tarnished was Kingdom of Heaven, where an entire hour was cut out because the studio wanted something more action oriented. That film was also tarnished upon release (and has also been fixed). What you see now in the gaming community is somewhat similar. Large companies are in charge of production and mandate what they want to see (Film studios do this). Companies are denied the resources they need to create a proper product and even have to release content later (DLC in our case, Extended Unrated version in the films world). I cannot make claims to know exactly what happened in our case but it reeks of studio influence on some level.

This is the reason I choose to work independently of studio's and finance things myself. I simply refuse to allow something I create to be manipulated by someone else. This is my artistic intergrity.

Sorry about the rant. I'll make an update in a moment..........

[Taboo]

New Section outlined. Let me know if I'm missing anything.

[digby69]

Another well thought out and done thread by Taboo-XX

Modifié par digby69, 24 avril 2012 - 09:10 .

[Taboo]

digby69 wrote...

Another well thought out and done tread by Taboo-XX

Thanks.

It means a lot to me to hear you say that.

I'm working a little project right now. More info later. 

I'll also be here for the rest of the day to talk to anyone who wants some input from me.

[digby69]

Having worked for a large corporate multinational I know all about the BS PR that is spewed out both externally and internally. The usual comments around the office after these "announcements and briefings from senior execs" were "do these people work for the same company we do!!

[Taboo]

Although I cannot claim to know exactly what is going on I do want to know that some of us have experience in these fields and know how they work. Some of us know what's happening and why, we just have different opinions on the matter.

[digby69]

I think they are starting to come out of "siege mode" as you put it.

There have been numerous threads about the EMS issue in SP and initially BW would be quite brutal in my opinion and lock these threads with statements like "no there isn't" & "your wrong!"

They are still locking threads but are now saying "we're investigating the issue"

So there's hope.

[Baa Baa]

I have some hope for it. But I don't expect much of the things I've been hoping for (marrying/building house with Tali on Rannoch, sitting on a beach with garrus watching the reapers burning, valid explanations, the catalyst being a lying trickster douchebag, the indoc theory, war assets making a difference, justification for all those LIES, making Shepard's sacrifice not seem in vain, blue babies, and an ending that leaves hope for the future) to actually come true with the 5 to 10 minute DLC.