449 réponses à ce sujet

[lx_theo]

Sauruz wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

To play god is to choose the path o the universe forever and ever. Rewriting is just a method. You're still choosing how everything will be then from there on out.

Okay, it appears the other guy won't answer, maybe you will, I choose not to accept your synthesis gift, I choose to remain the individual that I am, your counter argument is?

You are still the individual that you are.

A code is simply that. A code. If it says the same thing, than it makes no difference in who you are.

How can you be certain of that? Synthesis is a complete wild card. From what the Catalyst tells us, it could potentially do anything. It may change us for the good, it may have some unpleasant drawbacks. No matter what you say, from the few lines we get from the Catalyst it is impossible to prove one or the other is unchallengeably right. Which is why you're playing gods. You're doing things you don't actually understand. The consequences are unpredictable. You cannot make a reasonable decision.

You don't fully understand all of them.

Synthesis is how you said.

Control is never told how you control the Reapers.

Destroy is never told how it destroys synthetics, so you don't know if it'll effect other technology, like life support and such.

[Sohlito]

Rhazeal wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

If you alter someone's DNA, you are fundamentally changing them.

Also, synthetic life in the Mass Effect universe doesn't have DNA, so what would you be "combining?"

The whole notion of "final evolution" is pure idiocy. Evolution doesn't have some endpoint, not sure what science class the writers attended....

And why would Synthesis solve the problem of the created destroying the creator? We would still build things to make our lives easier after the ending, why wouldn't those things eventually rebel?

Synthesis is so stupid, it's appalling a professional writer would ever think that it works.

Bolded for emphasis.


Also how does green light contain the mass, information and  intelligence requisite to successfully rewrite the funadamantal building blocks of each individual galaxy wide regardless of their organic or synthetic state. The level of space magic required for the synthetic ending is so much more complex than the destroy or control endings that it might as well be a light that can terraform every rock to a garden class planet and stabilize every star to accomodate the planets.

It's that ludicris. It is painfully obvious that synthesis endured no logical scrutiny or peer review before being forced on us as the 'best' ending.

Bolded for emphasis as well.

Modifié par Sohlito, 23 avril 2012 - 09:50 .

[lx_theo]

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Not accepted, I want to remain precisely as I am, getting older and one day to die of  old age hopefully.

I choose to not let the Geth die and not let genocide happen. Your counter argument is?

As much as it pains me, I choose organics freedom of choice over synthetics, that includes my favorite EDI.

Not accepted. I refuse to allow genocide and allow a person to play god with their lives, reating them like pawns ready to be thrown away.

It goes any which way. It's all playing god. 

[MisterJB]

malakim2099 wrote...
Evolution is a natural process over millions of years.
Shepard is choosing to change everything in an instant flash of green light.

See? We're saving time and everything.

No being has the right to destroy diversity and make everything the same.

Again, evidence that everything will be the same?

Otherwise, you're just choosing to be pessimistic while I choose to be optimisitc about the hardest ending to get.

Otherwise why did you oppose Saren in the first place?

Because he was Indocrinated. The Reapers wouldn't allow us to mantain our freedom or individuality but I see no evidence of either being denied to us in the Synthesis ending.

[Oldbones2]

Valadras21 wrote...

Yeah, I'm playing god in synthesis. But everyone in the galaxy benefits from my choice. Something is gained that could offset the loss of the relays and the citadel. Much better than committing genocide in destroy. I would wipe out the Geth, billions of sentient self aware life forms, and the Reapers, each of which represent a galactic civilization. Remember, the Reapers are victims of the cycle as well. I simply cannot understand how one could be willing to sacrifice so much, given alternatives. So, the way I see it, who cares if I play god?

I care quite a bit, frankly from the way you just phrased that argument, I wouldn't want to give you the keys to my biology.

I like who and what i am, thanks.

[M0keys]

MisterJB wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...
Evolution is a natural process over millions of years.
Shepard is choosing to change everything in an instant flash of green light.

See? We're saving time and everything.

No being has the right to destroy diversity and make everything the same.

Again, evidence that everything will be the same?

Otherwise, you're just choosing to be pessimistic while I choose to be optimisitc about the hardest ending to get.

Otherwise why did you oppose Saren in the first place?

Because he was Indocrinated. The Reapers wouldn't allow us to mantain our freedom or individuality but I see no evidence of either being denied to us in the Synthesis ending.

There's no real evidence of either being saved, either. The endings are like PR representitives. They don't confirm or deny. They're just vague and frustrating so that you never get a foothold to stand on.

[xztr]

We will never know now will we.

[lx_theo]

Ryoten wrote...

I hate synthesis because you're pretty  much giving the reapers what they want.  It's been their goal the whole game.  You have been fighting against that.  Also, the catalyst says that synthesis is the "final evolution".  This is incorrect.  Darwinism has taught us that there is no final evolution.  Evolution is constant.  For their to be a apex or end, is completely contrary to the deffinition of evolution in general.

They have a similar goal, yes, but what you are fighting against is how they do it, not their goals, right? Their goals aren't really even known until the end. You are fighting against ebing harvested more than anything, imo.

As for evolution... I think it means more of a evolution of genetic material than evolution in general.

[Oldbones2]

MisterJB wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...
Evolution is a natural process over millions of years.
Shepard is choosing to change everything in an instant flash of green light.

See? We're saving time and everything.

No being has the right to destroy diversity and make everything the same.

Again, evidence that everything will be the same?

Otherwise, you're just choosing to be pessimistic while I choose to be optimisitc about the hardest ending to get.

Otherwise why did you oppose Saren in the first place?

Because he was Indocrinated. The Reapers wouldn't allow us to mantain our freedom or individuality but I see no evidence of either being denied to us in the Synthesis ending.

Maybe you're indoctrinated?


And really, I don't remember my tree out in my lawn having glowing lines in it.  If the green light just made plants and all animals the highest form of evolution, I think I can safetly assume that their sentient.

So what the hell am I supposed to eat?

[crimzontearz]

lx_theo wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...you.....you do realize HOW DNA works right?Yes. Don't patronise me. This is under the assumption that synthesis works and does actually do as the starchild says... Make a single type of genetic coding that works for both syntheitics and organics.

Synthetics have no DNA because their bodies have no need to store a code to tell their cells how to build proteins or how to regulate double negative feedbacks or to pass on their traits to future generations...so NO you do NOT know how DNA works or you would know a synthetic has no use for it

Modifié par crimzontearz, 23 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Saul Iscariot]

Does anyone have the schematics of a synthetic? Can we say with one hundred percent certainty that none of the parts function as synthetic muscle, organs etc?

[DJBare]

Sohlito wrote...

Rhazeal wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

If you alter someone's DNA, you are fundamentally changing them.

Also, synthetic life in the Mass Effect universe doesn't have DNA, so what would you be "combining?"

The whole notion of "final evolution" is pure idiocy. Evolution doesn't have some endpoint, not sure what science class the writers attended....

And why would Synthesis solve the problem of the created destroying the creator? We would still build things to make our lives easier after the ending, why wouldn't those things eventually rebel?

Synthesis is so stupid, it's appalling a professional writer would ever think that it works.

Bolded for emphasis.


Also how does green light contain the mass, information and  intelligence requisite to successfully rewrite the funadamantal building blocks of each individual galaxy wide regardless of their organic or synthetic state. The level of space magic required for the synthetic ending is so much more complex than the destroy or control endings that it might as well be a light that can terraform every rock to a garden class planet and stabilize every star to accomodate the planets.

It's that ludicris. It is painfully obvious that synthesis endured no logical scrutiny or peer review before being forced on us as the 'best' ending.

Bolded for emphasis as well.

If you accept it as some kind of reward sure, social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11619382

[ShaggyWolf]

malakim2099 wrote...

Valadras21 wrote...

Yeah, I'm playing god in synthesis. But everyone in the galaxy benefits from my choice. Something is gained that could offset the loss of the relays and the citadel. Much better than committing genocide in destroy. I would wipe out the Geth, billions of sentient self aware life forms, and the Reapers, each of which represent a galactic civilization. Remember, the Reapers are victims of the cycle as well. I simply cannot understand how one could be willing to sacrifice so much, given alternatives. So, the way I see it, who cares if I play god?

Because eliminating diversity is precisely what the geth are so adamantly against.

They want ALL life to self-determinate (except for the heretics). They do NOT want their existence determined for them.

Frankly, I think they would rather be destroyed than be forced to submit to organic bits. Though I wish Legion was still functional for THAT conversation. Could we have it as a LI then?

Legion: Shepard-Commander, I apparently have... organic parts.
Shepard: ... GO TO MY ROOM!

EDIT: And do the geth die in destroy? The Starchild clearly says that Shepard is synthetic, so she should die if she chooses Destroy... but Destroy had my Shepard survive. And we do NOT see EDI/Geth dying in the cinematics, only Reapers and Mass Relays. So we know the Starchild lies as it is.

Explain how I'm eliminating diversity. The Krogan are still Krogan. Joker is still Joker.

And the Geth are supposed to die in destroy. EDI is apparently an exception to that ending, and Shepard surviving is a miracle the writers decided to put in. Also, if I remember correctly, the catalyst doesn't definitively state that Shepard will die in destroy. He implies that as a possibility, but he doesn't guarantee death like he does in synthesis/control. Other than that, based on what the writers have said, the Catalyst is not supposed to be lying about anything.

[malakim2099]

MisterJB wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...
Evolution is a natural process over millions of years.
Shepard is choosing to change everything in an instant flash of green light.

See? We're saving time and everything.

No being has the right to destroy diversity and make everything the same.

Again, evidence that everything will be the same?

Otherwise, you're just choosing to be pessimistic while I choose to be optimisitc about the hardest ending to get.

Otherwise why did you oppose Saren in the first place?

Because he was Indocrinated. The Reapers wouldn't allow us to mantain our freedom or individuality but I see no evidence of either being denied to us in the Synthesis ending.

Okay, Saren, whatever you say.

Obviously morals are of no concern to you, just as they were not to him. So I don't need to continue this conversation about someone apparently deciding what is best for trillions of sentient beings without any actual data.

[lx_theo]

crimzontearz wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...you.....you do realize HOW DNA works right?

Yes. Don't patronise me. This is under the assumption that synthesis works and does actually do as the starchild says... Make a single type of genetic coding that works for both syntheitics and organics.

Synthetics have no DNA because their bodies have no need to store a case to tell their cells how to build proteins or how to regulate double negative feedbacks or to pass on their traits to future generations...so NO you do NOT know how DNA works or you would know a synthetic has no use for it

You're an idiot. Of course I know how DNA works. I'm not in grade school.

Ever think that a cross would be a combination of DNA and the synthetic method of existence that doesn't require DNA?

I know that synthetics don't need DNA or have it... This argument is under the assumption that it puts together the best of both worlds from each method of sustaining life.

[Vox Draco]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Does anyone have the schematics of a synthetic? Can we say with one hundred percent certainty that none of the parts function as synthetic muscle, organs etc?

Well...what IS a synthetic anyway? The geth as well as EDI are...essentially just programs and bits and bytes. Is that supposed to be the synthetics DNA? I mean, the bodies EDI and the geth have are just....platforms to upload their conscience to...and...hmmm...

Ah...here I go again, thinking about synthesis...stop it Vox, it makes no sense, and you won't find any sense in it....

[lx_theo]

Oldbones2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...
Evolution is a natural process over millions of years.
Shepard is choosing to change everything in an instant flash of green light.

See? We're saving time and everything.

No being has the right to destroy diversity and make everything the same.

Again, evidence that everything will be the same?

Otherwise, you're just choosing to be pessimistic while I choose to be optimisitc about the hardest ending to get.

Otherwise why did you oppose Saren in the first place?

Because he was Indocrinated. The Reapers wouldn't allow us to mantain our freedom or individuality but I see no evidence of either being denied to us in the Synthesis ending.

Maybe you're indoctrinated?


And really, I don't remember my tree out in my lawn having glowing lines in it.  If the green light just made plants and all animals the highest form of evolution, I think I can safetly assume that their sentient.

So what the hell am I supposed to eat?

That's idiotic. Of course they're not sentient. At most the final evolution comment referred to genetic material adn life sustaining methods.

[Creston918]

lx_theo wrote...
 He said nothing about how it would alter the physical forms of anyone.

Did you happen to see the green circuitry glowing on Joker's skin when he gets off the Normandy? And on EDI's skin? And on the leaves of that nearby plant?

[MisterJB]

malakim2099 wrote...
Obviously morals are of no concern to you, just as they were not to him. So I don't need to continue this conversation about someone apparently deciding what is best for trillions of sentient beings without any actual data.

Can you decide whats is, objectivelly, best for the galaxy? How can you know for sure that the StarChild isn't right and the Reapers are the solution to Chaos, hmm? In such a case, Destroy dooms the galaxy.

[legion999]

MisterJB wrote...

legion999 wrote...
Understanding by removing our diversity?

On what do you basis do you claim diversity will be gone? 
All life on Earth is based on DNA but not all life is the same. 
 

Peace when, unless the personalities of people are forcibly changed, individuals will want war or revenge? 

Individuals always want war and revenge. The point of Synthesis is not to prevent war between organics. The point is to end war between organics and synthetics.
One possibility is that it will allow synthetics to feel emotions like empathy thus, being able to judge actions on morality. It might prevent a war simply because they will feel bad if they commit genocide. 
There's one piece of evidence for this, EDI rests her head on Joker's shoulder in the Synthesis ending, a common organic gesture of affection.

Another option: War between Geth was unheard of until the Reapers came. If Synthesis allowed organics to reach consensus, to communicate at the speed of tought; a much more effective means of communication; imagine how many wars could be prevented.

Immortality of every being in the galaxy so overcrowding will become a huge issue especially with a cured genophage? Sorry but no thank you.

You misunderstand me. By immortality I mean, organics may no longer require food or sleep to survive, much like synthetics don't.
Instead, we could do it simply for pleasure. This could even allow the alien fleets stranded on Sol to survive.

You're combining all organic life and synthetic life together into a new DNA. That's not very diverse.

Also you seem to have not noticed but it doesn't stop war between the two. Also it has been repeatedly shown that the Geth and EDI have been developing emotions already.

And organics not needing food, drink or sleep is ridculous. The moral implications of eating animals becomes far worse. That's not even considering that overpopulation will still happen. And ecosystems are also screwed over.

[lx_theo]

Vox Draco wrote...

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Does anyone have the schematics of a synthetic? Can we say with one hundred percent certainty that none of the parts function as synthetic muscle, organs etc?

Well...what IS a synthetic anyway? The geth as well as EDI are...essentially just programs and bits and bytes. Is that supposed to be the synthetics DNA? I mean, the bodies EDI and the geth have are just....platforms to upload their conscience to...and...hmmm...

Ah...here I go again, thinking about synthesis...stop it Vox, it makes no sense, and you won't find any sense in it....

It is an intersting thought. How would they merged exactly? The intellect in me want to devise a method to make it work (I'm sure there is one. Nothing is impossible, except going faster than the speed of light). it would take a lot of work to work out an in depth method even in a sci-fi setting, though.

[shodiswe]

Zuka999 wrote...

Synthetics don't have DNA

Maybe all organics get DNA strands that makes their stemcells produce certain synthetic implants and nanites...

You can trick bacteria into producing certain substances by incerting certain genes. Maybe you can trich the cells into producing even mroe advadned stuff if you're realy good at genetics... like the reapres..


Problem is, you get an option and have no idea what it meens, when shepard was brought back shepard recived cybernetic implants, whose primary function was to keep the corpse alive and reconstruct the damage.
In ME2 you can clear hear that Bailey says Shepards DNA hasn't changed accordign to the scanners..

So the question is... how can the catalyst compare Shepards cybernetic augmentation and implants with genetic alterations that merge organic and synthetic? it changes organic lifeforms DNA to create synthetic augments?

Also shepard never asks "how" the synthetic addition will change "people"...

none of it makes sense...

And if it affects geth then... how... they get organic components that grow from surrounding organic material?

That ending option created far too many question if you think about it.... probably best not to...

What really bothered me was the limited conversation options we get with the catalyst... The limitation of conversation options with the catalyst is what upset me the most... which made closure even more difficult...
I could probably write a thousand pages about the confusion regarding the ending and what was lacking if  Ireally dicect the cinematics and add comments about the earth gameplay and story elements... That's what annoys me about the ending. The storytelling and especialy the interactive storytelling dissapears all of a sudden.
The ending leaves far more questions than expected, regarding less endings than I had expected.

[Sohlito]

DJBare wrote...

Sohlito wrote...

Rhazeal wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

If you alter someone's DNA, you are fundamentally changing them.

Also, synthetic life in the Mass Effect universe doesn't have DNA, so what would you be "combining?"

The whole notion of "final evolution" is pure idiocy. Evolution doesn't have some endpoint, not sure what science class the writers attended....

And why would Synthesis solve the problem of the created destroying the creator? We would still build things to make our lives easier after the ending, why wouldn't those things eventually rebel?

Synthesis is so stupid, it's appalling a professional writer would ever think that it works.

Bolded for emphasis.


Also how does green light contain the mass, information and  intelligence requisite to successfully rewrite the funadamantal building blocks of each individual galaxy wide regardless of their organic or synthetic state. The level of space magic required for the synthetic ending is so much more complex than the destroy or control endings that it might as well be a light that can terraform every rock to a garden class planet and stabilize every star to accomodate the planets.

It's that ludicris. It is painfully obvious that synthesis endured no logical scrutiny or peer review before being forced on us as the 'best' ending.

Bolded for emphasis as well.

If you accept it as some kind of reward sure, social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11619382

True. But I was more or less agreeing with it being very, very bad writing in general.

[Saul Iscariot]

I'm just entertaining the idea that synthetic lifeforms in the ME universe could represent something akin to a transition stage between the cylons and human form cylons. Both were synthetic but markedly different with the latter far closer to humans in all ways. I don't recall anything from ME that specifies anything one way or the other.

[metawanderer]

I could never choose the destroy or control option. Synthesis all the way for my first shep and for the second one I will begin to play in a couple of weeks whenever I finish Mass Effect 2 again. I love the Geth too much to have their race wiped out.

Modifié par metawanderer, 23 avril 2012 - 10:16 .