449 réponses à ce sujet

[GLR-0053]

Hey they said that it was left open to speculating...so yeah uh keep speculating.

[lx_theo]

DJBare wrote...

Cobretti ftw wrote...

ANOTHER one claiming that everybody just couldnt understand the greatness of the endings? Specially synthesis that is the worst of them by far.

He needs to justify all the effort he put in to get that option, forget saving earth with high EMS, synthesis FTW!

Oh, good, you've decided to stop being civil. Maybe I should treat you like dirt as well.

[essarr71]

lx_theo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Cobretti ftw wrote...

ANOTHER one claiming that everybody just couldnt understand the greatness of the endings? Specially synthesis that is the worst of them by far.

He needs to justify all the effort he put in to get that option, forget saving earth with high EMS, synthesis FTW!

Oh, good, you've decided to stop being civil. Maybe I should treat you like dirt as well.

You've been tossing around plenty.  It's not helping your own argument.

[betd2]

My problem with synthesis is simple forcing a fundamental change in all life in the galaxy, without their knowledge of consent, is one of the most morally reprehensible choices in the game.
Especally since the starchild gives you so little to go on.

[Madecologist]

When I think of the Catalyst I think of L5R "Sincerity". Basically Starbrat is lying and is only saying things it thinks you want to hear or more importantly things that will encourage you to make choices a certain way. It probably also believes its own crap, after all it is its purpose really. But he is not being honest to Shepard. He is trying guide Shepard to the outcome it desires. He can't outright lie or hide options that you have, but it will mince its words to decieve you.

[lx_theo]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

 Why do people think that Synthesis would make organics cyborgs or something along those lines? It makes no sense that people would be forced into a cyborg form. In fact, it makes so little sense that it also doesn't make sense that anyone would think that's what it meant. A bit... perplexing, I must say.

Cyborg: short for "cybernetic organism", is a being with both biological and artificial (e.g. electronic, mechanical or robotic) parts.

:blink:So yes, it makes everything into cyborgs. Otherwise how do you explain combining synthetic and organic?

Cyborg distinctly implies that the biological and artificial parts are distinctly separate, even if they work together. 

You use cyborg to describe it, you'll have a bunch of rabid people clamoring about how life is like ... This

Umm, no, all cyborgs do not look like the 80's "Terminator" model, sorry.  A cyborg is a cybernetic organism aka an organism that has been enhanced in some way by artifical parts.  That means when Joker gets off the Normandy with his glowing skin, he is now a cyborg.        

Talk to me again when people stop saying that it means like what I posted (I've seen quite a number of posts claiming this as fact, which is why I made this thread). That's what is messed up.

[eddieoctane]

lx_theo wrote...

Bfler wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Cyborg distinctly implies that the biological and artificial parts are distinctly separate, even if they work together. 

You use cyborg to describe it, you'll have a bunch of rabid people clamoring about how life is like ... This

Please describe a way to merge organic and mechanic parts so that they aren't separate.

Like I said before, it'd be a big challenge to create an in depth method way of describing how it could work. I have doubts even the Bioware writers made an attempt to do this.

So I'm going to go the lazy, but still true route. Wolverine.


EDIT Mouseraider above made a good comment about it.

Wolverine is a human with bones that got a coat of metal plating. His muscles are still the exact same as yours and mine. His tissue is human. That isn't a valid rebuttal.

And for a universe where everything from FTL to firearms are explained in a fairly significant depth, to end the universe without a single answer as to how any of it is remotely possible is crap. It means Casey and Mac have no idea what they are doing. And since we are getting into territory of something that the writers can't explain with their best ass-pull ever, then it really didn't belong in the story. No possible explanation in a universe where everything is somehow confined by the laws of science results in space magic.

[lx_theo]

essarr71 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Cobretti ftw wrote...

ANOTHER one claiming that everybody just couldnt understand the greatness of the endings? Specially synthesis that is the worst of them by far.

He needs to justify all the effort he put in to get that option, forget saving earth with high EMS, synthesis FTW!

Oh, good, you've decided to stop being civil. Maybe I should treat you like dirt as well.

You've been tossing around plenty.  It's not helping your own argument.

I;m not civil to the people who hadn't been civil to me, he had not to that point. I was actually hoping a civil conversation could continue with him, but I guess not.

[CGramn]

lx_theo wrote...

 Why do people think that Synthesis would make organics cyborgs or something along those lines? It makes no sense that people would be forced into a cyborg form. In fact, it makes so little sense that it also doesn't make sense that anyone would think that's what it meant. A bit... perplexing, I must say.

The Catalyst told of how synthesis would create a new DNA. He said nothing about how it would alter the physical forms of anyone. What does make sense is that if Synthesis only effects DNA and Sythetic's equivalent. They would be merged to create one fundamental building block of life rather than the two distinctly different ones that were there before. A Geth would simply be another species, like a Human is to a Turian. This is actually the only way it can make sense. If people were transformed into synthetics or cyborgs or something along those lines, it destroys the ability to write a future story coming after because of the huge variation it would force. People still have their free will. They still have their individuality. They are still who they are. The only logical interpretations of synthesis would be ones that change species at such a fundamental level that it can put them on the same playing field without changing the uniqueness of each species and individual. Any interpretation that does not take this in account will not make sense. I don't really understand why anyone would think those to be true. Maybe they are so bitter at the ending they choose to look for the interpretation they can hate on the most?

So please, stop making the silly threads attacking the Synthesis option.

How in this interpretation and explanation of the synthesis ending does it solve the problem of synthetics vs organics? Where is your reason for discounting the assumption most people have, besides "They can't make another game if this is true!"

The whole point of the synthesis ending was to alter the entire galaxy's uniqueness and individuality to the point where everything is the same, all the way down to plants... and as such, will not seek to eradicate itself. Also this "DNA" change gives people glowing green wireframes and glowing green AI eyes. Because that makes perfect sense...

[DJBare]

lx_theo wrote...
Don't insult me. I work with the info given to me. If you choose not to believe the one person who actually would have an idea what may happen for each, feel free to trust your instincts and try to explain them without any prior knowledge of how they work. 

Trusting your gut has always been the smart way to find out how things work, rather than first hand sources.

You have as much info as anyone else who has played this game, none, you, me and every other player based our decisions on assumption.

Why in the hell would I trust even a normal person I've only met seconds ago, let alone one that's been controlling a race of sentient beings that's been out to capture, mash, pulverize me and my kind?

[lillitheris]

This, by the way, is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said “mental gymnastics”. Instead of spending a little effort fixing the matter, you have to pretzelify your brain trying to come up with an answer.

Aside from the moral considerations, my earlier thread as well as at least Ieldra2's on the same topic reached the consensus that Synthesis as portrayed is complete nonsense.

Firstly, it can't create a ‘new DNA’. It's a nonsensical. There's no basis for this idea that can in any even semi-plausible way be explained to the audience, even if we choose to believe that such near-magical thing were possible. Secondly, the change it effects can't be instantaneous.

The best explanation is that Synthesis, for organic beings, happens through nanotech. This also means that the Normandy sequence wasn't real.

If you're interested in solving this issue and other issues with the ending, rather than gymnastics or idle complaining, then please help with this thread: http://social.biowar.../index/11289479. There's a working set of fixes there, and any critique or input you have is most appreciated.

Modifié par lillitheris, 23 avril 2012 - 10:44 .

[ArchDuck]

essarr71 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Cobretti ftw wrote...

ANOTHER one claiming that everybody just couldnt understand the greatness of the endings? Specially synthesis that is the worst of them by far.

He needs to justify all the effort he put in to get that option, forget saving earth with high EMS, synthesis FTW!

Oh, good, you've decided to stop being civil. Maybe I should treat you like dirt as well.

You've been tossing around plenty.  It's not helping your own argument.

Also, FYI, I don't think DJBare was trying to be uncivil. He has a whole theory as to the fact that higher EMS required to unlock the ending doesn't mean that it is the better secret ending but simply the one that required a more complex and better built crucible to build. You can look up his thread if you care to.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 23 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[Cobretti ftw]

THe funny thing is, you dont know what a DNA is ¬¬

WTH is the "synthetic equivalent of DNA"? Wtf does it do?

[Pockydon]

Okay, so even if the science does make sense, everything else doesn't. If something like that happened, society wouldn't just accept it! There would be riots, conspiracy theory's, mass suicides! Potential wars because no one would actually know what caused this! Saying synthesis is right has to imply that society as it is know is wrong, which it ISN'T!

Secondly, how does this actually help? This is supposed to stop synthetics from destroying organics, but how does it actually do that? We all have partly synthetic DNA (which also doesn't make any sense, that's not how DNA works) but that doesn't stop us from creating more synthetics who will destroy us. NONE OF IT MAKES ANY GOD DAMN SENSE!

Actually, none of the endings make any sense, no matter how you look at them. This is another reason why I believe IT to be true, because at face value none of the endings make any sense.

Modifié par Pockydon, 23 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[lx_theo]

eddieoctane wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Bfler wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Cyborg distinctly implies that the biological and artificial parts are distinctly separate, even if they work together. 

You use cyborg to describe it, you'll have a bunch of rabid people clamoring about how life is like ... This

Please describe a way to merge organic and mechanic parts so that they aren't separate.

Like I said before, it'd be a big challenge to create an in depth method way of describing how it could work. I have doubts even the Bioware writers made an attempt to do this.

So I'm going to go the lazy, but still true route. Wolverine.


EDIT Mouseraider above made a good comment about it.

Wolverine is a human with bones that got a coat of metal plating. His muscles are still the exact same as yours and mine. His tissue is human. That isn't a valid rebuttal.

And for a universe where everything from FTL to firearms are explained in a fairly significant depth, to end the universe without a single answer as to how any of it is remotely possible is crap. It means Casey and Mac have no idea what they are doing. And since we are getting into territory of something that the writers can't explain with their best ass-pull ever, then it really didn't belong in the story. No possible explanation in a universe where everything is somehow confined by the laws of science results in space magic.

Its plenty valid of a rebuttal. You're assuming everything is replaced with machinery or something else a bit out there, it seems like. 

While I agree they probably haven't went in depth in explaining synthesis (That'd take a lot of time/resources itself), it's definitely possible.

[lx_theo]

Cobretti ftw wrote...

THe funny thing is, you dont know what a DNA is ¬¬

WTH is the "synthetic equivalent of DNA"? Wtf does it do?

I know how DNA works, jackass.

Adn if you want your answer, feel free to scour the thread to find this discussion that was already had.

[Saul Iscariot]

Finished with the mushrooms. Got a 1-Up but no babies that can dance and no good for an omelette.

[ArchDuck]

lx_theo wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

 Why do people think that Synthesis would make organics cyborgs or something along those lines? It makes no sense that people would be forced into a cyborg form. In fact, it makes so little sense that it also doesn't make sense that anyone would think that's what it meant. A bit... perplexing, I must say.

Cyborg: short for "cybernetic organism", is a being with both biological and artificial (e.g. electronic, mechanical or robotic) parts.

:blink:So yes, it makes everything into cyborgs. Otherwise how do you explain combining synthetic and organic?

Cyborg distinctly implies that the biological and artificial parts are distinctly separate, even if they work together. 

You use cyborg to describe it, you'll have a bunch of rabid people clamoring about how life is like ... This

Umm, no, all cyborgs do not look like the 80's "Terminator" model, sorry.  A cyborg is a cybernetic organism aka an organism that has been enhanced in some way by artifical parts.  That means when Joker gets off the Normandy with his glowing skin, he is now a cyborg.        

Talk to me again when people stop saying that it means like what I posted (I've seen quite a number of posts claiming this as fact, which is why I made this thread). That's what is messed up.

You must have missed this reply before: <_<

ArchDuck wrote...

If this isn't a cyborg what is?

Notice the circuitry?

Modifié par ArchDuck, 23 avril 2012 - 10:59 .

[CDHarrisUSF]

lx_theo wrote...

You're an idiot. Of course I know how DNA works. I'm not in grade school.

Ever think that a cross would be a combination of DNA and the synthetic method of existence that doesn't require DNA?

You can say that you know it all you want, but it doesn't make it true. You have yet to demonstrate any understanding of these concepts. You just keep asserting that it works as if we're supposed to accept such a huge pile of bulls#!t presented as one throwaway line in the last couple of minutes of the story. Enlighten us, oh mighty lx_theo, as to exactly how this one pulse of energy works its magic.

How does it create organic matter where there is none? How does it create synthetic parts where there are none? How does one single pulse understand how to cope with every possible variation of DNA (and any alien equivalents) it will encounter? How does it modify DNA such that the reproductive process will produce cyborg offspring (otherwise they'll be back to organics in one generation)? How does it do this all flawlessly when one random mutation in the wrong gene can cause fatal birth defects? How will the resulting beings still look and act like the races they came from when a 2% difference is all that separates us from chimps? How will the offspring's body intake synthetic "food," then break it down and use it to build synthetic parts (otherwise they would be all organic)? How does all of this happen in the blink of an eye? Even if you could come up with a cross between synthetics and human DNA, how does modifying the DNA in the cells of already existing humans not screw up the delicate and heavily interdependent processes which are necessary to continue living... which depend on reading instructions from human DNA? When an important bodily function goes looking for instructions in the cells' DNA and finds something else in their place, how is the organism going to cope with that?

Feel free to go into as much detail as possible... since you say you understand how it all works. I eagerly await an explanation as to how this ending is anything more than a patently ridiculous idea which was supposed to come off as high-minded and philosophical... but fell flat on its face.

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 23 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[Navasha]

theo... let me ask you a question.

Lets say you go to a doctor for a cold. He gives you a pill and you pass out. You wake up a few days later in a hospital. The doctor comes in and says, "Great news". We have fundamentally changed you. We have removed all of your gastrointestinal system. You no longer can eat, and must now take nourishment through these IVs, but its for the best. This way you have no chance of getting stomach, throat, or colon cancer."

"But I didn't ask for this... ", you say, "I enjoy eating.. I like tasting food. I don't want to have to shove a needle in my arm to get nourishment".

To which the doctor replies, "I know you didn't know about this or ask for it... But I am your doctor and I know what is best for you.".

How would that make you feel?

[nitefyre410]

OP I understand the fundamentals of what they were trying to with Synthesis - but as I have said  they are complete misrepresenting what synthesis really is.

Its not about merging two things - its about coming to see the common truths about both opposing sides and finding a solution. The problem with Synthesis in ME 3 is that it is not a solution.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 23 avril 2012 - 10:49 .

[lx_theo]

DJBare wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Don't insult me. I work with the info given to me. If you choose not to believe the one person who actually would have an idea what may happen for each, feel free to trust your instincts and try to explain them without any prior knowledge of how they work. 

Trusting your gut has always been the smart way to find out how things work, rather than first hand sources.

You have as much info as anyone else who has played this game, none, you, me and every other player based our decisions on assumption.

Why in the hell would I trust even a normal person I've only met seconds ago, let alone one that's been controlling a race of sentient beings that's been out to capture, mash, pulverize me and my kind?

Because the kid is your only outlet of knowledge. If you don't trust him, its like picking where the coin is under from three differently colored cups. 

If you don't trust him on that, why trust that destroy will even destroy the reapers and not just send the paralyzation stasis the collectors used against every organic in the galaxy?

If you're not going to trust him, you can't pick and choose based on how you want to see the ending. 

[essarr71]

lillitheris wrote...

This, by the way, is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said “mental gymnastics”. Instead of spending a little effort fixing the matter, you have to pretzelify your brain trying to come up with an answer.

Aside from the moral considerations, my earlier thread as well as at least Ieldra2's on the same topic reached the consensus that Synthesis as portrayed is complete nonsense.

Firstly, it can't create a ‘new DNA’. It's a nonsensical. There's no basis for this idea that can in any even semi-plausible way be explained to the audience, even if we choose to believe that such near-magical thing were possible. Secondly, the change it effects can't be instantaneous.

The best explanation is that Synthesis, for organic beings, happens through nanotech. This also means that the Normandy sequence wasn't real.

If you're interested in solving this issue, and other issues with the ending, then please help with this thread: http://social.biowar.../index/11289479. There's a working theory there, and any critique or input you have is most appreciated.

Is pretzelify a word?  It should be.

Personally, I cant get past the moral argument - regardless of explination of how it works.
Most people will argue that Synthesis is the "best" as all races live.. but, if one believes the explination, they aren't those races anymore.  You don't save the Geth.. they aren't Geth anymore.  Without their consent or approval.  

And further: if each race retains their culture, you've done nothing to prevent future aggression or prevent the "inevitable" singularity.  There is no reason to eternal coexistence.  

Synthesis is just an absolute scientific and moral mess and no amount of speculization can dodge it's flaws.

Modifié par essarr71, 23 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[Pockydon]

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

You're an idiot. Of course I know how DNA works. I'm not in grade school.

Ever think that a cross would be a combination of DNA and the synthetic method of existence that doesn't require DNA?

You can say that you know it all you want, but it doesn't make it true. You have yet to demonstrate any understanding of these concepts. You just keep asserting that it works as if we're supposed to accept such a huge pile of bulls#!t presented as one throwaway line in the last couple of minutes of the story. Enlighten us, oh mighty lx_theo, as to exactly how this one pulse of energy works its magic.

How does it create organic matter where there is none? How does it create synthetic parts where there are none? How does one single pulse understand how to cope with every possible variation of DNA (and any alien equivalents) it will encounter? How does it modify DNA such that the reproductive process will produce cyborg offspring (otherwise they'll be back to organics in one generation)? How does it do this all flawlessly when one random mutation in the wrong gene can cause fatal birth defects? How will the resulting beings still look and act like the races they came from when a 2% difference is all that separates us from chimps? How will the offspring's body intake synthetic "food," then break it down and use it to build synthetic parts (otherwise they would be all organic)? How does all of this happen in the blink of an eye? Even if you could come up with a cross between synthetics and human DNA, how does modifying the DNA in the cells of already existing humans not screw up the delicate and heavily interdependent processes which are necessary to continue living... which depend on reading instructions from human DNA? When an important bodily function goes looking for instructions in the cells' DNA and finds something else in their place, how is the organism going to cope with that?

Feel free to go into as much detail as possible... since you say you understand how it all works. I eagerly await an explanation as to how this ending is anything more than a patently ridiculous idea supposed to come off as high-minded and philosophical but fell flat on its face.

^this

[Cobretti ftw]

lx_theo wrote...

Cobretti ftw wrote...

THe funny thing is, you dont know what a DNA is ¬¬

WTH is the "synthetic equivalent of DNA"? Wtf does it do?

I know how DNA works, jackass.

Adn if you want your answer, feel free to scour the thread to find this discussion that was already had.

I HIGHLY doubt that you know the absics. Since the definitions of a DNA is contradictory to your argument.

And no, you didnt answer WTH does a "synthetic equivalent of DNA" do?