139 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

mmm buddah23 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

mmm buddah23 wrote...

If they consulted scientis, FTL would never be in any game, if you travel FTL speeds and collide with a marbel sized object, the resulting explosion would be larger than 100 nuclear bombs. SO no.

That's just not true.  FTL is necessary for a lot of cluster or galaxy spanning Sci-Fi.  Futhermore there is at least some cutting edge science (notably areas of GR and Quantum Theory in Curved space) that allow at least the shred of some sort of "Global" FTL drives existing (there are phenonma well known today such as gravitational lensing that are globally FTL but don't violate relativity).  The classic example is the wormhole.  In fact wormholes have recently become somewhat more plausible since apparently energy with a negative stress-energy tensor seem to exist (Dark Energy) but are currently poorly understood.

The point is that a casual "sci-fi" series like Mass Effect doesn't (and probably shouldn't) go into this in any depth, but if you can at least appeal to general plausibility and get the reader to say, "OK,I can roll with this" then you are most of the way there.

-Polaris

So you are tlling me the leading scientist for astronomy and astro physics in germany is wrong? Good show. What happens when a meteor hits our planet going 50 thousand miles per hour, yeah, massie explosion, now imagine a dreadnought going FTL hitting a small object in space, that equals a giant explosion. Its simple physics. And space is full of small to large objects that are very uncharted. Wormholes are the only feasible way to travel the galaxy.

You are conflating a lot of things.  The problem of FTL has NOTHING to do with the kinetic energy.  The hazards of a very fast STL object on a planet of any significant mass is devestating.  An object at FTL does not necessarily have a greater kinetic energy than one STL.  Why?  Because the only way you get FTL (globally) is to play games with space-time and thus the stress-energy tensor (and kinetic energy) itself.  What matters for what you are talking about is the local relative KE of the object in the reference frame of it's target.

In short there are a lot of reasons to say that FTL isn't possible but what you are saying isn't one of them.

-Polaris

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...
You are conflating a lot of things.  The problem of FTL has NOTHING to do with the kinetic energy.  The hazards of a very fast STL object on a planet of any significant mass is devestating.  An object at FTL does not necessarily have a greater kinetic energy than one STL.  Why?  Because the only way you get FTL (globally) is to play games with space-time and thus the stress-energy tensor (and kinetic energy) itself.  What matters for what you are talking about is the local relative KE of the object in the reference frame of it's target.

Hell, even the ME lore gets this right, since you only get FTL in ME by reducing the ship's mass.

[AlienSpaceBats]

With science fiction especially, they should consult successful writers, JMS did with Babylon 5 (Harlan Ellison).

[Madecologist]

AlienSpaceBats wrote...

With science fiction especially, they should consult successful writers, JMS did with Babylon 5 (Harlan Ellison).

 Harlon Ellison. Actually a lot of sci-fi writers have treaties and articles and essays you can read. Some even write books about the subject. Any science fiction writer or aspirant writer of the genre should check these out.

This is not because they are 'gods' or are never wrong (they certainly make mistakes and are not 'gods'), but because they went through the ropes themselves. Had their versions of trips and leaps. Learning from their experience (even if you disagree with the lesson taught) is what wisdom is all about.

Knowledge and Wisdom is just as important as Creativity for a good writer.

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[ReshyShira]

That really depends on the hardness of the setting. If you're going for an authentic or realistic game than yes it would be good to consult scientists or at least journals reporting their findings regarding whatever question.

[Oldbones2]

Writers should ALWAYS consult experts to get a realistic perspective about the subject the write about. Even if they just disregard it later.


However Mass Effect seemed to be doing that for the most part.

And no self respecting scientist would have done anything but laugh when they described synthesis.

[Madecologist]

Oldbones2 wrote...

Writers should ALWAYS consult experts to get a realistic perspective about the subject the write about. Even if they just disregard it later.

However Mass Effect seemed to be doing that for the most part.

And no self respecting scientist would have done anything but laugh when they described synthesis.

Scientists? Try people of said field... like an Evolutionary Biologist... we didn't laugh. We threw up and then got drunk, then threw up more. Now after a month I think I am ready to laugh at what I heard the Catalyst say.

Synthesis to us is what the movie The Core is to Geologists.

But in seriousness, the first statement is most true. They should consult, they can disregard what is said for the good of the stories. But they should still consult (and understand what they do choose to disregard).

A good quote I heard once, "Never let realism get in the way of a good story, but make sure you don't toss it out of the window either, because without any realism there can be no good story." Basically the audience needs to be able to believe the premise for there to be any chance of them appreciating the story.

[AlanC9]

Madecologist wrote...

Scientists? Try people of said field... like an Evolutionary Biologist... we didn't laugh. We threw up and then got drunk, then threw up more. Now after a month I think I am ready to laugh at what I heard the Catalyst say.

Synthesis to us is what the movie The Core is to Geologists.

How'd you feel about asari?

[Sundance31us]

Most "professionals" don't make a habit of working for free, so consulting them would likely add to the cost of the game.

[Uriko128]

vania z wrote...

When creating new game setting, should they consult professionals? I think ME would have greatly benifited if they actually used help from scientists to create codex and maybe fix some plot twists, which require something to be possible IRL.  

I think they already have scientists working with them, or at least they get informed about basic biology, engeneering, etc, because there are some things that a games developer shouldn't know, in fact, it's quite common on a science fiction novel to read something and say: wow, is this true? Then u do some research and u see it is true, and can't help thinking "the autor must have a biologist friend or something..." 

Modifié par Uriko128, 24 avril 2012 - 08:17 .

[Jure Simich]

The basic problem is that what Science tells us about how the universe works can be shortened down to: it'd be boring.

Maximum speed, and that theoretical given all the issues of reaction mass needed and similar, is speed of light, and stars are years apart at those speeds. The human body can't deal with the issues of zero gravity, so cryo sleep is mandatory if you want to transport live humans around. For decades. There's no galaxy wide humanity, just very rare directly inhabitable planets.

Intra-system travel also takes enormous amounts of time.

There are no space battles. Ships are, out of necessity, kept to minimum mass, to minimize needed reaction mass, so no elegant heavy cruisers. Only trusses and balls.

No fancy maneuvering, either. Every move you make is pre-planned from the start, just like civilian air travel these days, since your reaction mass is so limited.

Of course, that means no space battles. Not interesting ones, anyway... At long range, it's all beyond visual range mathematics (has to be run by computers) and at meaningful space travel speeds, there's no such thing as effective armor.

Also, no interesting people at the helm, either. A real interstellar craft can, at any time, turn around and become a relativistic kill vehicle - ie, it can always pull a kamikaze attack that would, with a real interstellar craft, generally mean nuke-level impacts. So, interesting commanders are out of question. Hell, preprogrammed (non-AI) computers are more likely to be used...

So, you either run really hard Sci-Fi and end up with a rather boring universe, just like the real one, OR YOU INVENT SOMETHING THAT GOES COUNTER TO SCIENCE AS WE KNOW IT. Mass effect actually does this pretty well, what with the wonderful mass effect that makes so many things fun.

[Oldbones2]

Sundance31us wrote...

Most "professionals" don't make a habit of working for free, so consulting them would likely add to the cost of the game.

True, most developers/studies/professional writers factor that in to the cost of producing a work.

[Oldbones2]

Jure Simich wrote...

The basic problem is that what Science tells us about how the universe works can be shortened down to: it'd be boring.

Maximum speed, and that theoretical given all the issues of reaction mass needed and similar, is speed of light, and stars are years apart at those speeds. The human body can't deal with the issues of zero gravity, so cryo sleep is mandatory if you want to transport live humans around. For decades. There's no galaxy wide humanity, just very rare directly inhabitable planets.

Intra-system travel also takes enormous amounts of time.

There are no space battles. Ships are, out of necessity, kept to minimum mass, to minimize needed reaction mass, so no elegant heavy cruisers. Only trusses and balls.

No fancy maneuvering, either. Every move you make is pre-planned from the start, just like civilian air travel these days, since your reaction mass is so limited.

Of course, that means no space battles. Not interesting ones, anyway... At long range, it's all beyond visual range mathematics (has to be run by computers) and at meaningful space travel speeds, there's no such thing as effective armor.

Also, no interesting people at the helm, either. A real interstellar craft can, at any time, turn around and become a relativistic kill vehicle - ie, it can always pull a kamikaze attack that would, with a real interstellar craft, generally mean nuke-level impacts. So, interesting commanders are out of question. Hell, preprogrammed (non-AI) computers are more likely to be used...

So, you either run really hard Sci-Fi and end up with a rather boring universe, just like the real one, OR YOU INVENT SOMETHING THAT GOES COUNTER TO SCIENCE AS WE KNOW IT. Mass effect actually does this pretty well, what with the wonderful mass effect that makes so many things fun.

Very true, but there's a difference between breaking the rules of science and bending them.

Break them and your work often feels cheesy or fake.

Bend them and your work seems realistic and grounded.

[Uriko128]

AlanC9 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Scientists? Try people of said field... like an Evolutionary Biologist... we didn't laugh. We threw up and then got drunk, then threw up more. Now after a month I think I am ready to laugh at what I heard the Catalyst say.

Synthesis to us is what the movie The Core is to Geologists.

How'd you feel about asari?

It's true that synthesis is imposible, but this is a game man, expect some magic to happen, it's nothing bad. I'm a biologist and I didn't go "omg what a heresy they have done against evolution" lol

And about asari... Theoricaly they are possible, but really unlikely.

[tractrpl]

mmm buddah23 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

mmm buddah23 wrote...

If they consulted scientis, FTL would never be in any game, if you travel FTL speeds and collide with a marbel sized object, the resulting explosion would be larger than 100 nuclear bombs. SO no.

That's just not true.  FTL is necessary for a lot of cluster or galaxy spanning Sci-Fi.  Futhermore there is at least some cutting edge science (notably areas of GR and Quantum Theory in Curved space) that allow at least the shred of some sort of "Global" FTL drives existing (there are phenonma well known today such as gravitational lensing that are globally FTL but don't violate relativity).  The classic example is the wormhole.  In fact wormholes have recently become somewhat more plausible since apparently energy with a negative stress-energy tensor seem to exist (Dark Energy) but are currently poorly understood.

The point is that a casual "sci-fi" series like Mass Effect doesn't (and probably shouldn't) go into this in any depth, but if you can at least appeal to general plausibility and get the reader to say, "OK,I can roll with this" then you are most of the way there.

-Polaris

So you are tlling me the leading scientist for astronomy and astro physics in germany is wrong? Good show. What happens when a meteor hits our planet going 50 thousand miles per hour, yeah, massie explosion, now imagine a dreadnought going FTL hitting a small object in space, that equals a giant explosion. Its simple physics. And space is full of small to large objects that are very uncharted. Wormholes are the only feasible way to travel the galaxy.

There are two types of theoretical FTL, one's a wormhole (Mass Relay) the other is an an Alcubierre Drive (Conventional FTL drive the Normandy uses to travel from star to star within a cluster, without using a Relay). In the first, you don't have to worry about object in your way, you just connect two distant points. For the second, you also probably don't have to worry about objects in your way as much. In an Alcubierre Drive, the ship actually sits motionless in a moving warp field. When the field encounters another object, hmmm, it looks like an Alcubierre drive would have some sort of lensing affect, causing anything in front of it to move or flow around the bubble. It appears that the ship itself would be safe from damn near anything while within its bubble, but the things that it runs into could be ripped apart. Two Alcubierre equipped ships would just slip past each other, more than likely, or alter course, or even go into some sort of crazy FTL orbital spin, creating insane gravitational waves. 

Polaris, is this what you're getting? I haven't seen any articles explaining in detail what would happen if an Alcubierre Drive runs into external object. Perhaps my idea with the control ending with sending the Reapers into the nearest star was a bad idea...

Modifié par tractrpl, 24 avril 2012 - 09:04 .

[Abreu Road]

They should consult the definition of art.

[Madecologist]

Uriko128 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Scientists? Try people of said field... like an Evolutionary Biologist... we didn't laugh. We threw up and then got drunk, then threw up more. Now after a month I think I am ready to laugh at what I heard the Catalyst say.

Synthesis to us is what the movie The Core is to Geologists.

How'd you feel about asari?

It's true that synthesis is imposible, but this is a game man, expect some magic to happen, it's nothing bad. I'm a biologist and I didn't go "omg what a heresy they have done against evolution" lol

And about asari... Theoricaly they are possible, but really unlikely.

Well about the Synthesis ending it is just takes every false misconception of evolution and then tries to sound smart about it. Which is a pet peeve of mine, the same reason why I hate 'social darwinists'. The biggest problems with Synthesis is that it is at the ending and is one of the possible outcomes of the story (not just something that rolls across the screen to be soon forgotton) and that I actually have larger ethical issues about it.

As for the Asari they are a species that reproduces via parthenogenesis while using some sort of neurostimulation to encourge cross gene mixing. I am assuming they are a diploid species. For a complex lifeform as a humanoid species, this is highly unlikely but it does manage to skit within the realm of maybe possible on some alien planet. So suspension of disbelief is not broken.

Also the defense "it's a game" is not a valid one. Is it science fiction or space fantasy? Is this high fantasy or fantasitc history? There are different genres of writing and each have certain standards of quality. The just a game defense is the exact reason why writers like Mac think they can get away with anything.

The "oh whatever, it's..." arguement is never a proper defense for any kind of writing. Maybe some people don't care, but some of us actually studied writing and strive for better writing be it in TV, movies, or videogames.

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[obtuse4ngle]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Hire this guy as science consultant, hire this guy as military consultant, and write out the entire background, beginning, and ending for all three games before releasing the first one!

Imma let you finish ...
but Neil deGrasse Tyson is one of the best astrophysicists of all time! One of the best astrophysicists of all time.

[Uriko128]

Madecologist wrote...

Uriko128 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Scientists? Try people of said field... like an Evolutionary Biologist... we didn't laugh. We threw up and then got drunk, then threw up more. Now after a month I think I am ready to laugh at what I heard the Catalyst say.

Synthesis to us is what the movie The Core is to Geologists.

How'd you feel about asari?

It's true that synthesis is imposible, but this is a game man, expect some magic to happen, it's nothing bad. I'm a biologist and I didn't go "omg what a heresy they have done against evolution" lol

And about asari... Theoricaly they are possible, but really unlikely.

Well about the Synthesis ending it is just takes every false misconception of evolution and then tries to sound smart about it. Which is a pet peeve of mine, the same reason why I hate 'social darwinists'. The biggest problems with Synthesis is that it is at the ending and is one of the possible outcomes of the story (not just something that rolls across the screen to be soon forgotton) and that I actually have larger ethical issues about it.

As for the Asari they are a species that reproduces via parthenogenesis while using some sort of neurostimulation to encourge cross gene mixing. I am assuming they are a diploid species. For a complex lifeform as a humanoid species, this is highly unlikely but it does manage to skit within the realm of maybe possible on some alien planet. So suspension of disbelief is not broken.

Also the defense "it's a game" is not a valid one. Is it science fiction or space fantasy? Is this high fantasy or fantasitc history? There are different genres of writing and each have certain standards of quality. The just a game defense is the exact reason why writers like Mac think they can get away with anything.

The "oh whatever, it's..." arguement is never a proper defense for any kind of writing. Maybe some people don't care, but some of us actually studied writing and strive for better writing be it in TV, movies, or videogames.

I agree with you, but truth is I have never expected ME to give a "real" scientific explanation about its events, because if they wanted to do such a thing, they should start by re-launching the three games with that "mass effect" thing erased, because as far as I know, "mass", like energy, can not be destroyed, and even if it could, the idea of "a relay that makes the mass of the ships equals to zero" must sound very funny to a physicist.

Just pointing: About the asari thing, they do not encourage "cross gene mixing", they only conect their nervous system to research "somehow" on the DNA of their mate. Then, they stimulate their own cells to create a copy of the mate's DNA string. This copy, alongside their own "asari DNA string", is what they pass to their offspring.

Also, I wouldn't say they do "parthenogenesis", because that is asexual reproduction, which would mean asari only have one parent, but they have two.

Peace

[Swordfishtrombone]

vania z wrote...

When creating new game setting, should they consult professionals? I think ME would have greatly benifited if they actually used help from scientists to create codex and maybe fix some plot twists, which require something to be possible IRL.  

Yes, absolutely. Even if you aren't doing hard SciFi, ANY SciFi will benefit if they can achieve what the plot requires through scientifically plausible means, rather than through complete fantasy.

A while back, in one of the podcasts I listen to (might have been Skeptic's Guide To The Universe), there was an interview with someone (can't recall any details) that was telling about an initiative to reach out to hollywood movie makers and make it easier for them to find scientists willing to consult with them on a storyline idea.

It's not just that a scientist who has actual knowledge on a relevant subject would shoot down ideas that are implausible; because of their knowledge, they may introduce new concepts of physics, or biology, or whatever their subject, that can give rise to new options for the writers; options that may be much better than what was originally conceived.

So yes, consulting with scientists, a stellar idea.

(I wish they'd consulted a biologist, and a physicist on the "Synthesis" ending. Though the poor scientists subjected to that nonsense would have had their work cut out to explain all the implausibilities and absurdities it entails. Maybe such a consultation would have led into leaving that option out in the heap of discarded, bad ideas, where it belongs.)

[Madecologist]

Uriko128 wrote...

[I agree with you, but truth is I have never expected ME to give a "real" scientific explanation about its events, because if they wanted to do such a thing, they should start by re-launching the three games with that "mass effect" thing erased, because as far as I know, "mass", like energy, can not be destroyed, and even if it could, the idea of "a relay that makes the mass of the ships equals to zero" must sound very funny to a physicist.

Just pointing: About the asari thing, they do not encourage "cross gene mixing", they only conect their nervous system to research "somehow" on the DNA of their mate. Then, they stimulate their own cells to create a copy of the mate's DNA string. This copy, alongside their own "asari DNA string", is what they pass to their offspring.

Also, I wouldn't say they do "parthenogenesis", because that is asexual reproduction, which would mean asari only have one parent, but they have two.

Peace

Well Liara in ME1 was saying how nothing is gained from the other parent. The bond is only used to randomise the bits of genes of the mother, it only uses the father as a template to guide the process but the material is all from the mother. This sounds awefully a lot like cross gene mixing in the production of gametes in most animals (minus the need of having another person linking with your nervous system and that ours is random).

Unless Bioware retconned this and said that the father contributes new genetic information... then what can I say... if they changed it. Basing my observation entirely on what Liara said in ME1 and the Codex entry in all 3 games, it sounds like the genetic information is entirely from the mother only. The father is just a road map to guide the process to be less random. The copy you speak of is still made from the mother's genetic material.

My guess is Asari babies like their parents are diplod. Carrying one gene set from one of the mother's pair, and the second pair is a newly constructed gene set built by randomising the genetic material of the mother by using the father as a template. Don't think BW thought it out this far ahead though.

Technically speaking if the other parent provided no genetic material of their own (still using Liara's ME1 defination), then there is technically one parent only. So it is still a form of asexual reproduction. The second parent servers as a stimulus which is not foreign on Earth based Parthogenesis species either. Many requiring an external stimulus to trigger the cycle.

It seems the concept of the second parent (the father) is more a social construct based on the need of having one to trigger the cycle. They even talk about some Asari who believe and try to trigger the process artificially.

Either case I used the parthogenesis model as a framework of explaining what would be the closest Earth based analogue we can use to understand it. The whole process is still some highly complex and different xenobiology.

Edit - True about the mass effect field technology. The reason given by Bioware only solves Newtons' limitations, but doesn't correct for Einstien's limitations. Since even a near zero mass object is still capped by the light barrier. If Mass Effect fields were possible it would only make reaching subluminal speeds easier, but we still won't be breaking the light barrier. My understanding is the mass is not lost but its interaction with the universe outside of the field is changed. This said... the Light Barrier would still be a limitation.

Modifié par Madecologist, 28 juin 2012 - 08:07 .

[clipped_wolf]

I think that their writers should have had a scientist consult.
They spend millions on development and I guess they are too crunched for time for their writers to double check their facts or information.
It's too late for Mass Effect to be 'hard' sci-fi anymore, not even close.  It has irredeemably gone too far into the realm of fantasy. I think it is unfortunate that the writers of what seemed at one point might be military sci-fi are very ignorant at times of both science and the military. While I'm grinding my axe, Bioware as a whole should give their animators some basic lessons in military courtesy. Left handed salutes...WTF...no one does that. No one.

EDIT: Before some says that Mass Effect is a fantasy space opera, I know.

Modifié par clipped_wolf, 24 avril 2012 - 10:23 .

[Geth VI]

Pretty heated topic ya got here.

Niel deGrasse Tyson and Dale Dye are excellent consultant choices, thouch. I think Alex Fillepenko and Michio Kaku would also make good physics consultants, especially if you got all 3.

Modifié par Geth VI, 24 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[Madecologist]

Geth VI wrote...

Pretty heated topic ya got here.

What did you expect? You have two biologists in the thread and someone brought up Asari reproduction.

[AlanC9]

Madecologist wrote...
As for the Asari they are a species that reproduces via parthenogenesis while using some sort of neurostimulation to encourge cross gene mixing. I am assuming they are a diploid species. For a complex lifeform as a humanoid species, this is highly unlikely but it does manage to skit within the realm of maybe possible on some alien planet. So suspension of disbelief is not broken.

Unless you start thinking about the "father" in the relationship being meaningful. What, the asari reproductive system can analyze the psyche of the "father" and then select the appropriate assortment of genes to activate?

If I feel like swallowing this, I can swallow space magic too. Actually, the Crucible is easier to swallow -- it's super-advanced technology, but the asari are supposed to be natural.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 avril 2012 - 10:40 .