42 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

Making a twist in a rpg video game like this, that the player can in no way influence is not called dynamic but static.

And the game is not supposed to shape Hawke for us, we are supposed to shape Hawke through the game. Without that it wouldn't be a rpg.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 24 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[thats1evildude]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...
We aren't interesting unless we suffer.  

While I agree with the decision to kill off Leandra, this statement does smack a little of True Art Is Angsty, a generally despised trope if there ever was one.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[thats1evildude]

I think Leandra's death was handled very well and served as a powerful moment in Hawke's development. I also accept that heroes are by definition shaped by adversity and tragedy; the story wouldn't be meaningful if nothing bad ever happened to Hawke.

And yes, despite all the protests about railroading, it is necessary to sometimes remove player agency in service of the greater plot. I recall all the complaints back in the days of DAO about how the decision to save Connor or Isolde was rendered meaningless because you could go to the Circle of Magi and get help. Would DAO have been a better game if you were able to knife Loghain the second you got to Ostagar and then lead the army to a stunning victory over the darkspawn?

That said, DA2 revels far too much in putting Hawke through a never-ending parade of tragedies. It's one thing to kick the hero in the ribs while he's down, provided the story allows the hero to pick himself up at the conclusion. DA2 starts out by kicking Hawke in the ribs and follows up by knocking out his teeth, dousing him in gasoline and then lighting him on fire. At the end of the story, is Hawke really any better off than when he started? I did enjoy the story of DA2 and its deconstruction of common fantasy tropes, but I think Bioware forgot about the value of escapist entertainment in DA2 and need to get back to that.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Dwarva]

I actually really liked it and agree it says a lot about how your Hawke has very few people left in his/her life. My current runthrough I'm going to kill Bethany in the Deep Roads so when Leandra goes he's literally going to have no one....

[Knight of Dane]

I'm not against the killing of Leandra either, i'm certainly not a fan of it either.

I just find the uprunning events missing. As a player i did not care enough for Leandra the first time i played through at that point. The same can be said about Carver dieing in the beginning. i did not know his charcter enough to care.

You don't murder a character for the hell of it or for gamplay reasons as it was in this game. You kill them off to provide a soucre of character development, which this game also lacks, because Hawke is hardly a character before fighting the Arishok.

The better way to handle the traumatic experiences they tried to scene would be to let the whole family survive into Kirkwall, provide the player with the choice of saving either sibling in the deep roads, then establishing the Leandra depression/regret trauma in act 2 and end her in act 3 just before the ending plot started.

[Dutchess]

I've never been able to feel a connection with Leandra. I really tried, but I mostly found her just annoying and a bit bland. So her gruesome end never hit me emotionally. I felt more sorry for my Hawke than for her.

I don't mind there was no option to save her, but I agree Bioware has taken Hawke's losses a bit too far. In three years, Hawke can lose every family member, and all in a terrible way. Hawke should be a living wreck after all that.

[Dutchess]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

renjility wrote...
Hawke can lose every family member, and all in a terrible way. Hawke should be a living wreck after all that.

Actually this is a good point. I found it odd how after losing family members, Hawke just kind of goes on his/her merry way. There's a cut scene where Hawke is depressed about Leandra's death - and typically a love interest or friend approaches to offer consolation. But that's it. Maybe it should shape the rest of the character's dialogue. Like add a "bitter" or "grieving" dialogue option, lol. 

Actually that'd be kind of cool. Adding more dialogue options as emotional events unfold for the protagonist. You can either choose to use them, or not.

Even the scene after her death I find lacking in that regard. No matter what option you choose, Hawke appears far from heart-broken. He/she stays rather emotionless during it all. That it still has to kick in when Hawke is holding Leandra in hi/her arms I can understand. But surely after that, a bit of a breakdown should occur. Seeing your Mother being turned into a zombie bride should be very traumatizing, as is seeing your sibling being crushed by an ogre, and possibly the second sibling almost turning into a ghoul by the taint. Bioware just failed to let this drama become real and significant. 
Instead of these scars staying visibly with Hawke, Hawke simply carries on after one scene that addresses the death of a family member. 

[thats1evildude]

Faerunner wrote...

I found Leandra to be a weak, whiney, lazy woman that just stood around complaining about how her children were entitled to all the royalties and prestige her family name USED to carry without doing any of the work. In Act 1 especially she constantly nagged Gamlen about not providing the accomodations she expected, when she didn't exactly get a job, help out or find a new place to live either.

You must have gotten other cutscenes than I did, because the only complaining I heard from Leandra towards Gamlen was about how he sold her children into indentured servitude to pay his debts and then needling her about paying rent. Yes, she's dismayed by the loss of her estate, but she's also burdened with the far greater pain of having lost one of her children who died to protect her. When it becomes clear that Gamlen sold off the estate and squandered her inheritance — which by all rights could have gotten him tossed in jail — she forgives him and immediately gets to work petitioning the viscount.

I grant that your own experiences may colour your perception of Leandra, but come on. She's a non-combatant in a world where 99.9 per cent of all inter-personal conflicts are resolved by cutting the other person's head off. Give her a little leeway for not being Supermom.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[Vovea]

When I first played the quest I was thinking "Oh, it's gonna turn out that Leandra hasn't been kidnapped at all! She's just on a date with some guy and Hawke bursts in thinking she's dead! And she's going to be all 'Oh, you're a right one Hawke!'. It'll be hilarious!"

Then she was a zombie, then she died and I was all, ":mellow:."

[thats1evildude]

Faerunner wrote...

What I remember was Leandra demanding that her brother get her family into the city despite abandoning him years ago and never coming back except when she needed something from him, and despite her ingrate attitude that's exactly what he did. He got her family into the city she wanted with the only connections he had, and she whined about it for over a year.

Again, you're viewing that scene far differently than I did. Leandra doesn't demand so much as beg Gamlen for help after the destruction of her home.

And yes, he does help them get in the city, but he also uses the situation to his own advantage. He owed a debt to both the Red Iron and Athenril, if you recall.

Faerunner wrote...

I also remember her complaining about his house despite it being--you know--his house. Living in a sty works for him. If she didn't like it that much, then she could have done chores or (heaven forbid) gotten a job and moved into her own place if she found it so deplorable. That or complained less. Either way, living in another person's house rent-free and job-free for over a year kind of diminishes one's right to complain in my book.

He sold her children into a year of indentured servitude to settle his debts. Also, I didn't hear any complaining from Leandra about the state of the house — Hawke sure does, but Leandra doesn't.

Besides, I think the whole "unlawfully squandered her inheritance" kind of squares any debt between Gamlen and Leandra.

Faerunner wrote...

As Gamlen kept saying, she chose to run away and leave her family, surname and fortune behind her and refused to come back for years even when she was needed. I find it extremely selfish and hypocritical of her to abandon her old life when it was convenient and then expect it to still be waiting for her when she could be arsed to return, and then cry victimization when it isn't.

Convenient? She went on the run with an apostate and spent years moving from place to place to avoid the templars. You make it sound like she was dodging chores.

"Oh, how I hate moping floors! Well, off to Ferelden with this dashing young mage. Tra la la, la la …"

Faerunner wrote...

She's a non-combatant, yes, but all it takes is two hands to get a job (thousands of peasants do it every day in Thedas) and since most of her problems in the first act were financial, her refusing to do any work and then complaining about not having enough money or comfort just rubbed me the wrong way.

We're talking about subsistence living, here. She could work to the end of her days and still not have enough money to reclaim the estate, which had the additional problem of being used as a hub for slavers. SLAVERS, for the love of the Maker.

And working as a washerwoman or a streetsweep would not solve the problem of the templars pursuing her children. Her problems were not solely financial.

Leandra's only real fault was that she took too long to recover from the death of Carver/Bethany.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 avril 2012 - 08:38 .

[Karlone123]

I think it was right not to give the player the choice to save her or not,I mean look at her when she looks like a bride. She wouldn't have wanted to carry on living looking the way that b******** made her look. But to not have the choice to carve the Hawke symbol in his chest was unfair. just shows Hawke killing something that's already dead.

We want proper revenge Bioware!

[thats1evildude]

Faerunner wrote...

I never said I wasn't. I just despise people that abandon their families for years at a time and then come crawling back only when they need help or they want something. As far as I'm concerned, Gamlen was in no obligation to help Leandra since she abandoned him years ago and never came home even when he needed her.

My position is that you help family when they're in dire straits, especially when they're only asking for something that rightfully should have been theirs.

Faerunner wrote...

He offered a way to get them into the city on the condition that they work for a year of indentured servitude. Personally? I don't care. If the Hawkes didn't like it, then the Hawkes could move somewhere else. I personally feel that if the gangs are going to put out money to get a family of refugees into the city, then the family of refugees can work to make it worth their while. No one gets a free lunch, kiddies!

That's not the problem. It's one thing that Hawke had to earn his way into the city, but Gamlen traded his sister's kids to a group he was in-debted to! He didn't help them out of familial responsibility; he used them to settle his own debt! 

Faerunner wrote...
As for Leandra herself, I remember her crying "My children deserve to be among the nobility!" which begs the question of what she expected would happen after abandoning her noble family years ago? Not to mention that when Hawke provides the will, she says snidely, "With any luck, your 'house' will be returned to you within weeks."

Snidely? How did you get "snidely" from that scene? I can't even begin to comprehend how you can interpret Leandra's attitude in that scene as anything close to condescending. A little angry, yes, but that's perfectly understandable given the circumstances.

At this point, I realize there's no further point in debating this with you, because you're interpreting bits of dialogue in … vastly different ways than I am. I'd best leave it at that.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 avril 2012 - 04:37 .