You know how on different play throughs the members of your family look different sometimes? Well, when Leandra had a cute soft face and doe eyes, I felt horrible when she died because I said OH YEAH MOM you should start dating again. Plus she was adorable. Then on another play through she had those sharp creepy eyeliner eyes and I was glad she was gone. Those eyes chilled my soul.
Leandra
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Guest_Trista Faux Hawke_*
, avril 24 2012 04:34
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#27
Posté 30 avril 2012 - 11:08
Asdara
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Sometimes I am highly attached to her, sometimes I can't stand her. It depends on my Hawke. I can totally see her as the loving, overly stressed, occasionally brusque but ultimately devoted mother; I can also see her as the embittered, self centered, high society stuck living on the farm, and actually quite callous wench.
I like that about her writing. That it's ambiguous enough to be viewed either way, depending on what skew you put on your perspective. That is not to say that ALL characters should be written that way, that would leave the game as a whole without a discernible tone to anchor one's self to, but in this case I think it works really well.
I like that about her writing. That it's ambiguous enough to be viewed either way, depending on what skew you put on your perspective. That is not to say that ALL characters should be written that way, that would leave the game as a whole without a discernible tone to anchor one's self to, but in this case I think it works really well.
#28
Posté 30 avril 2012 - 04:04
sylvanaerie
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I liked Leandra (having Mama Cousland's voice helped with that somewhat). I didn't perceive her as the 'spoiled prodigal rich b*tch', I saw her as a grieving mother, with nowhere left to go but home to Kirkwall. I've never lost children, so I can't say what that's like, but I did lose a brother and saw how it affected my own mom. From the outside looking in, I can't imagine any pain is deeper or harder to work through.
Gamlen did steal not just Leandra's inheritance but Hawke's as well. And he did sell Leandra's children into servitude to pay off his debts. I get that he probably didn't have a lot of options at the point Hawke and family show up literally on his doorstep, but that doesn't change that he stole their inheritance, squandered it on luxuries for himself "I admit I spent a little more on myself than I should have", and then lies to Leandra that their parents hated her. Even once you return the will, there is an option to tell him to make up for it, but Leandra declines it, saying it's enough for her to know her parents didn't die angry at her. That's what impacted more on my perception of her than a 'give me my due' attitude.
As for 'getting a job', Leandra probably looked and found nothing. There were a surplus of Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall no one was hiring (remember Hubert?) and I wouldn't have wanted Leandra doing the kind of work Hubert subjected them to. It may have been a case of nothing she could do on that front.
I hate there's no option to stop Quentin before he kills her, and that it's so completely senseless. I project a lot of my own feelings into that moment in the game. Initially there is shock, and I perceive Hawke as trying to wrap his/her head around what's happened, but it's just so senseless...so INSANE that just isn't possible at that time. The LI really can't say/do much to fix what's happened. Hawke is still in anger/denial at that point. And it's the aftertalk with Aveline (and depending on what type of personality I've attached to Hawke) that defines the 'grief handling' for me. Some of my Hawke's angrily blame her, some are heartbroken, some hide their grief behind masks, but like a true friend, Aveline sees behind all that and sees what's going on, even if Hawke can't express it. (I am unsure of rivaled Aveline, I've never been able to rival her or Varric).
Gamlen did steal not just Leandra's inheritance but Hawke's as well. And he did sell Leandra's children into servitude to pay off his debts. I get that he probably didn't have a lot of options at the point Hawke and family show up literally on his doorstep, but that doesn't change that he stole their inheritance, squandered it on luxuries for himself "I admit I spent a little more on myself than I should have", and then lies to Leandra that their parents hated her. Even once you return the will, there is an option to tell him to make up for it, but Leandra declines it, saying it's enough for her to know her parents didn't die angry at her. That's what impacted more on my perception of her than a 'give me my due' attitude.
As for 'getting a job', Leandra probably looked and found nothing. There were a surplus of Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall no one was hiring (remember Hubert?) and I wouldn't have wanted Leandra doing the kind of work Hubert subjected them to. It may have been a case of nothing she could do on that front.
I hate there's no option to stop Quentin before he kills her, and that it's so completely senseless. I project a lot of my own feelings into that moment in the game. Initially there is shock, and I perceive Hawke as trying to wrap his/her head around what's happened, but it's just so senseless...so INSANE that just isn't possible at that time. The LI really can't say/do much to fix what's happened. Hawke is still in anger/denial at that point. And it's the aftertalk with Aveline (and depending on what type of personality I've attached to Hawke) that defines the 'grief handling' for me. Some of my Hawke's angrily blame her, some are heartbroken, some hide their grief behind masks, but like a true friend, Aveline sees behind all that and sees what's going on, even if Hawke can't express it. (I am unsure of rivaled Aveline, I've never been able to rival her or Varric).
Modifié par sylvanaerie, 30 avril 2012 - 04:07 .
#29
Posté 30 avril 2012 - 05:28
ReallyRue
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Trista Faux Hawke wrote...
renjility wrote...
Hawke can lose every family member, and all in a terrible way. Hawke should be a living wreck after all that.
Actually this is a good point. I found it odd how after losing family members, Hawke just kind of goes on his/her merry way. There's a cut scene where Hawke is depressed about Leandra's death - and typically a love interest or friend approaches to offer consolation. But that's it. Maybe it should shape the rest of the character's dialogue. Like add a "bitter" or "grieving" dialogue option, lol.
Actually that'd be kind of cool. Adding more dialogue options as emotional events unfold for the protagonist. You can either choose to use them, or not.
I agree. I usually switch to picking the aggressive dialogue options for the remainder of Act 2, because it feels more like Hawke is grieving and angry. If I'm already playing an aggressive Hawke, I tend to decide that months have passed after her mother's death and the continuation of the game. Though sometimes with the aggressive Hawke's I'll switch to diplomatic to make it seem like their mother's death has made them less 'hard'. In any case, I usually try and change the dialogue to fit Hawke's mood as best I can. After taking a little break from the game when Leandra dies.
#30
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 01 mai 2012 - 09:50
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Wow, I've been watching this thread like a hawk all week and never noticed this before. Oh well, it's not for lack of having a response.
So where was Leandra when her parents were dying of Cholera and her brother was wiping their chins and cleaning their bedpans? Where was Leandra when her parents had died and her brother was holding their funeral? How often did Leandra come home to visit, help out or check up on her brother in the decades after their parents' death?
Oh, that's right. When Leandra's parents and brother needed her, she was nowhere to be found because she was too busy gallivanting with her new family and thought it was too much trouble to make the incredibly long journey home. But as soon as Leandra and her new family are in trouble, suddenly personal convenience no longer matters and families should help each other. "Love is more important than money," until Leandra needs money. Good to know.
Familial responsibility that apparently only applies to Gamlen and not to Leandra.
Gamlen told the Hawkes when they first arrived in the city that the old family wealth was gone and that the only way he could help them get into the city would be for them to work off a debt in indentured servitude for a year. He gave them warning and a choice to accept his method or not when they first arrived. Considering they gasped in outrage over the prospect of working ("You're selling us into indentured servitude?!" indeed) but went along with it anyway instead of coming up with an alternative themselves, I don't feel sorry for them.
How did you not get "snidely" from that?
Leandra had been complaining that Gamlen's help and hospitality was not up to her standards for over a year ("Where's the will? Surely father left me something!" "My children have been working in servitude--servitude!--for a year! They should be nobility!"), but when the alternative to living off her brother was to find a place of her own and get a job to pay for it, Leandra stood around doing nothing for months.
When the alternative was to claim a better place for no other reason than existing ("I'm an Amell! See? My rich parents left this for me!") suddenly she was all self-righteous and acting like Miss Independent when, really, she was just depending on someone else to provide the lifestyle she had been nagging her brother to return for over a year. A lifestyle that she chose to abandon years ago but still expected to have waiting for her whenever she decided to return, as he kept reminding her.
I've never claimed otherwise. I've said many times that this is my opinion of the character based on my own life experiences and my interpretation of the scenes as they're presented in the game. I don't pretend that my interpretation of Leandra is the "right" one and I don't hastle people who claim to like her. I just throw my thoughts out there, consider other people's and defend my own when attacked.
thats1evildude wrote...
My position is that you help family when they're in dire straits, especially when they're only asking for something that rightfully should have been theirs.
So where was Leandra when her parents were dying of Cholera and her brother was wiping their chins and cleaning their bedpans? Where was Leandra when her parents had died and her brother was holding their funeral? How often did Leandra come home to visit, help out or check up on her brother in the decades after their parents' death?
Oh, that's right. When Leandra's parents and brother needed her, she was nowhere to be found because she was too busy gallivanting with her new family and thought it was too much trouble to make the incredibly long journey home. But as soon as Leandra and her new family are in trouble, suddenly personal convenience no longer matters and families should help each other. "Love is more important than money," until Leandra needs money. Good to know.
thats1evildude wrote...
That's not the problem. It's one thing that Hawke had to earn his way into the city, but Gamlen traded his sister's kids to a group he was in-debted to! He didn't help them out of familial responsibility; he used them to settle his own debt!
Familial responsibility that apparently only applies to Gamlen and not to Leandra.
Gamlen told the Hawkes when they first arrived in the city that the old family wealth was gone and that the only way he could help them get into the city would be for them to work off a debt in indentured servitude for a year. He gave them warning and a choice to accept his method or not when they first arrived. Considering they gasped in outrage over the prospect of working ("You're selling us into indentured servitude?!" indeed) but went along with it anyway instead of coming up with an alternative themselves, I don't feel sorry for them.
thats1evildude wrote...
Snidely? How did you get "snidely" from that scene? I can't even begin to comprehend how you can interpret Leandra's attitude in that scene as anything close to condescending. A little angry, yes, but that's perfectly understandable given the circumstances.
How did you not get "snidely" from that?
Leandra had been complaining that Gamlen's help and hospitality was not up to her standards for over a year ("Where's the will? Surely father left me something!" "My children have been working in servitude--servitude!--for a year! They should be nobility!"), but when the alternative to living off her brother was to find a place of her own and get a job to pay for it, Leandra stood around doing nothing for months.
When the alternative was to claim a better place for no other reason than existing ("I'm an Amell! See? My rich parents left this for me!") suddenly she was all self-righteous and acting like Miss Independent when, really, she was just depending on someone else to provide the lifestyle she had been nagging her brother to return for over a year. A lifestyle that she chose to abandon years ago but still expected to have waiting for her whenever she decided to return, as he kept reminding her.
thats1evildude wrote...
At this point, I realize there's no further point in debating this with you, because you're interpreting bits of dialogue in … vastly different ways than I am. I'd best leave it at that.
I've never claimed otherwise. I've said many times that this is my opinion of the character based on my own life experiences and my interpretation of the scenes as they're presented in the game. I don't pretend that my interpretation of Leandra is the "right" one and I don't hastle people who claim to like her. I just throw my thoughts out there, consider other people's and defend my own when attacked.
Modifié par Faerunner, 01 mai 2012 - 09:55 .
#31
Guest_Trista Faux Hawke_*
Posté 02 mai 2012 - 03:51
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Faerunner wrote...
So where was Leandra when her parents were dying of Cholera and her brother was wiping their chins and cleaning their bedpans?
"The twins were barely a year old!"
lol
#32
Posté 02 mai 2012 - 08:59
Dutchess
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Trista Faux Hawke wrote...
Faerunner wrote...
So where was Leandra when her parents were dying of Cholera and her brother was wiping their chins and cleaning their bedpans?
"The twins were barely a year old!"
lol
A week old, in fact.
#33
Guest_Trista Faux Hawke_*
Posté 02 mai 2012 - 04:34
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lol that's right. there were just out of the oven. oops.
#34
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 01:34
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Trista Faux Hawke wrote...
lol that's right. there were just out of the oven. oops.
And it's impossible to travel with babies, especially with a husband to help take care of them.
And it's too difficult to return in the twenty years or so since the twins have been born, except to come back asking to reap the benefits of the family fortune and then complain when told it's no longer there. The money should still be there waiting even after being away for decades, darn it!
Modifié par Faerunner, 04 mai 2012 - 02:28 .
#35
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 04:14
Blah Blah Bleh
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Why couldn't we just kill Gamlen? Seriously, after playing it on the PS3 all the way through doing everything involving the family in every way possible and chilly listening to the conversations I honestly was like "Why don't all the Qunari hatred and mage haters and template haters and refugee haters and smuggler haters ok enough just all the haters in both games and just have them torture and murder gamlen? i even bought a pc version, modded the dog name keyboard to be able to make his name longer so i could call him that which will be the death of uncle ****** **** bastard.
Modifié par Blah Blah Bleh, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .
#37
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 10:11
animefan
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I actually enjoy viewing Leandra in a different light eavh play through. This time, my Hawke is a little agressive though mostly pragmatic. That said, he is more than fed up with darling mothers forgiving attitude to baby Carver.
Leandra can be read so many wonderful ways. She can spoilt and entitled, or she can be part of continious grief.
The death scene did chill me the first time I played it but now I just frustrated that the death of the blood mage doesn't get a nice personal end. Should have the option to gut him like a fish.
Leandra can be read so many wonderful ways. She can spoilt and entitled, or she can be part of continious grief.
The death scene did chill me the first time I played it but now I just frustrated that the death of the blood mage doesn't get a nice personal end. Should have the option to gut him like a fish.
#38
Posté 18 novembre 2012 - 01:54
Battlebloodmage
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According to Bioware, it was there to show the mishandle of magic. The devs want people to experience first hand the dangers of mages since most of the game is about mages being suppressed by the templars. It's there mostly to even out the scale.
#39
Posté 18 novembre 2012 - 05:23
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Battlebloodmage wrote...
According to Bioware, it was there to show the mishandle of magic. The devs want people to experience first hand the dangers of mages since most of the game is about mages being suppressed by the templars. It's there mostly to even out the scale.
As much as the devs say that, I never connected that thought of madmage killer and went along the line of thoughts of serial killer.
I mean I'm mostly 2 faced when it comes to Leandra(lord how I dote on my mom given the chance) so, I was literally just miffed at how they ****holded me on the ways I could save her.
If they wanted to show the dangers of magic and make it very emotional for hawke to lose another family mmber, they should of had her attend service at the chantry WHEN Anders blew it up.
Now THATS a sure fire way to show the dangers of magic and get more bang for your buck.....literally.
#40
Posté 19 novembre 2012 - 01:46
Battlebloodmage
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It's not the danger of magic and more along the line about the danger of a bomb though.Ghost_Nappa wrote...
Battlebloodmage wrote...
According to Bioware, it was there to show the mishandle of magic. The devs want people to experience first hand the dangers of mages since most of the game is about mages being suppressed by the templars. It's there mostly to even out the scale.
As much as the devs say that, I never connected that thought of madmage killer and went along the line of thoughts of serial killer.
I mean I'm mostly 2 faced when it comes to Leandra(lord how I dote on my mom given the chance) so, I was literally just miffed at how they ****holded me on the ways I could save her.
If they wanted to show the dangers of magic and make it very emotional for hawke to lose another family mmber, they should of had her attend service at the chantry WHEN Anders blew it up.
Now THATS a sure fire way to show the dangers of magic and get more bang for your buck.....literally.
#41
Posté 19 novembre 2012 - 03:45
CuriousArtemis
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Battlebloodmage wrote...
It's not the danger of magic and more along the line about the danger of a bomb though.
True, but it can be argued that Anders only did what he did because he merged with a spirit (i.e. was a very naughty mage).
I agree that I never see the killer guy as a mage; I associate his murder with sociopathy, not magic. Anyone could have murdered those women; didn't take a mage.
#42
Posté 19 novembre 2012 - 09:35
thats1evildude
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motomotogirl wrote...
I agree that I never see the killer guy as a mage; I associate his murder with sociopathy, not magic. Anyone could have murdered those women; didn't take a mage.
But as Gamlen is quick to point out, only a mage could have violated her body in such a way, ie. use her body parts to create an undead bride for himself. And only a mage could summon an army of demons to protect himself, or use blood magic to conceal his activities in Kirkwall.
Furthermore, Quentin's atrocities would never have occured if the Circle had worked as intended. Quentin would either be locked up or dead had he been under the authority of the templars. But he was free — save for Emeric, no one in Kirkwall even believed Quentin existed.
Kirkwall is filled to the brim with murderers and sociopaths, but only one of them has ever caused any personal distress to Hawke. If the murder of your mother by a mage is not justification for hating them, then what is?
Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 novembre 2012 - 09:47 .
#43
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 03 décembre 2012 - 02:15
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Battlebloodmage wrote...
According to Bioware, it was there to show the mishandle of magic. The devs want people to experience first hand the dangers of mages since most of the game is about mages being suppressed by the templars. It's there mostly to even out the scale.
I could tell. DA2 has all the subtlety of a bludgeon to the forehead.
I personally don't see why they would need to "even out the scale" though. Most mages you go to save from Templars turn out to be dangerous, unstable, blood mages, and/or abominations soon after. Most mages you try to help end up causing mayhem, using you and/or turning on you later (like Feyrniel, Anders and Grace), which already hammers in the lesson about magic being dangerous and needing supervision. They didn't need to add Quentin on top of it.
EDIT: I also didn't care about Leandra as a character or a mother (so-called), so I wasn't particularly crushed when she died. Don't get me wrong, I felt very sorry for her since her death was gruesome and she didn't deserve to go the way she did--but then neither did the other women. At least Leandra got to say good bye to her loved one; none of the others got to do the same.
Anyway, I never felt particularly attacked to her, so my pity was more along the lines of: "Poor thing, what a horrible way to go" as opposed to: "OMG this **** killed my mother!" I never thought of Leandra as my mother since she's nothing like my mom, and never liked her as a person since I still think she's lazy, spoiled, selfish, self-entitled, condescending, whiney, co-dependent and unpleasant, so I wasn't any more heartbroken over her than any of the other victims. To me, her death is just another example of how magic is dangerous and needs to be monitered. I already got it, thank you very much. The game already provided dozens of examples before and after. Did the game really need to drag in this character I'm apparently supposed to love as a mother?
Modifié par Faerunner, 03 décembre 2012 - 02:55 .
