249 réponses à ce sujet

[N7 Banshee Bait]

The Angry One wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Only if you believe that conflict between Organics and Synthetics is inevitable. And the only reason you have to believe that is the Catalyst told you it was.

And the fact that it happens over & over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales & happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

Do you know who caused the problem in Javik's cycle?
THE REAPERS.

Before then, the Zha'till were actually full hybrids, organics and synthetics co-existing in one body.
The Protheans were at war with them, yes. But knowing the Protheans it was probably them who started it.
Point is, the Zha'till didn't overthrow their organic hosts until the Reapers forced them to. Oops.

The Catalyst's ridiculous assertions are wrong. Even if synthetics and organics fight, nothing says synthetics will exterminate all organics. NOTHING. The Zha'till didn't. The Geth didn't. The only ones who do are the Reapers.

To put it another way, if you believe the Catalyst, congratulations! You bought a sack of crap from the world's glowiest fertilizer salesman.

They were at war with Synthetic AI's when the Reapers showed up. Javik even says so in the game.  I think he called it the Metatron War or something like that. 

It happens in EVERY cycle.  That's the reason the Reapers were creted in the first place.   DUIH!!!  You guys just don't understand this story at all.  You argue & argue & argue but just don't understand the story.  It's like you're trying to complete a puzzle but only have half the pieces.  You don't pay attention then jump on the boards trying to act like you know every single little thing about it.
  

Modifié par Steelgrave, 24 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[Norwood06]

You assume star-child, the master of the reapers, is telling you the truth. Why do you trust it?

[Zkyire]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

How do the Reapers know that Synthetics will rise up to wipe out ALL Organics?

The only way they can know for even 99% certainty is if that pattern repeated itself over and over again, galaxy after galaxy.

But if that happened; the Reapers (since they began as organics) would never have come to exist in the first place.

Meaning they would not be here now to kill you all.

Reaper logic does not make sense. At all. None.

Steelgrave wrote...

And the fact that it happens over
& over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the
same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You
have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't
happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales &
happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

Conflict does not mean "wipe out all organic life"

Organics are constantly waging war with each other too, much more often than synthetics.

Modifié par Zkyire, 24 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[bahamutomega]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

uh...  the Stargazer scene proves that much wrong at least.  after every ending, we're some distance in the future and synthetics haven't come back to kill us yet.

[SerraAdvocate]

Steelgrave wrote...

FJVP wrote...

You do know why the geth attacked the quarians in the first place, right?

Self defense.  Like I said, the conflict WILL NEVER go away.  Things won't change in the future.  If you choose "destroy" you screw all organic life in the future.

And I would argue that you don't. First, conflict is always going to occur between groups. Humans will fight Humans. Organics will fight organics. Synthetics will fight Synthetics. And any of those groups might fight any of the others. That's unavoidable. Social existance comes with conflict. Sometimes that conflict will ascend to the level of violence. Sometimes it won't.

What you're arguing is that Synethic vs. Organic violence has a particular attribute that makes it more dangerous than the other kinds: Synthetic vs. Organic violence will always, inevitably lead to the complete and utter annihilation of one of the two sides. 

Why? 

For one, we have in-game evidence that this isn't the case. The Geth had the opportunity to annihilate the Quarians and didn't take it.

Now, you might argue that given enough time, they would have taken that opportunity if it arose in the future. But it's not like attempted genocide is something uniquely characteristic of organic vs. synthetic violence. Humans have attempted to wipe out other groups of humans, too. So why should we prioritize wiping out all Synthetics before they wipe us out? That's basically the same as saying we should kill all the... I don't know, say, Australians... because some day America and Australia won't agree on something, therefore some day America and Australia will fight about something, therefore some day Australia will attempt to kill all Americans because that will be the only way to end the conflict.

So, saying that destroy will always lead to synthetics attempting to kill all organics is all predicated on one assumption: that the conflicts between synthetics and organics cannot be overcome with anything short of total and complete violence.

There is something special about the clash of characteristics that makes the existance of the one anathema to the existance of the other.

People have believed that before, about the relationships between group X and group Y. They've always been wrong.

If you want to believe that, knock yourself out. I refuse.

Modifié par Helm505, 24 avril 2012 - 03:40 .

[Trentgamer]

If you are taking everything the way it was presented, you are forgetting one main point in your logic here. When you first start talking to the starchild god being, he says he must find a new solution. So no, the reapers will never attack again. So your logic here is flawed. Not that it matters because the logic of most of the ending is seriously flawed anyway.

[The Angry One]

Steelgrave wrote...


They were at war with Synthetic AI's when the Reapers showed up. Javik even says so in the game.  I think he called it the Metatron War or something like that. 
  

I mentioned that. So they were at war. So what? It doesn't change the fact that the Zha'till were full hybrids, AI and organic minds working together.
The AI only overtook the organic minds because of the Reapers. So this was a war between hybrids and organics.

Remember when spacebaby said hybrids would solve everything? Yeah that was also full of crap.

[Dnayew]

Star Kid also tells us that he wants to prevent synthetics from destroying organics, so every 50,000 he sends synthetics to destroy organics?

uh......... wha?

[adam32867]

im pretty sure that the starkid hints that shepard might not be able to control the reapers, also im pretty sure that shep controls only reapers not all synthetics, so by your logic if the synthetics "rise up" shep would just have to kill organics.

[UniqueNickname]

Problem is Catalyst is forcing Sheppard to solve metaphysical, philosophical, social and also moral question without providing relevant information to make such a decision. He is not even providing enough information just to guess. And when we choose there is also no closure which would explain if our decision was correct after all.

Perhaps Catalyst was right. However, if we choose this ending we are going to see "red blast" ending + Normandy crew stranded on mysterious planet + someone (Sheppard?) taking breath among the rubble + space granpa sequence.

Based on anything we saw there is impossible to tell if synthetic life really rebelled against their creators or no hint if this will happen in the future. Maybe Catalyst was right, maybe not. We don§t know that!

[The Angry One]

In the Extended Cut for destroy:

Kid: "Tell me another story about the Shepard."

Grandpa: "Alright... one more story.... BUZZZZZZZZ! Wait, no time for that now. We must report back to the collective and continue to calculate pi for the overlord."

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2012 - 03:44 .

[GLR-0053]

Lots of Speculations and more to come.

[k0xfilter]

"BEWARE, I AM THE CATALYST! Believe me, to save the galaxy you must touch that open power line or jump into that lazer! If you want to screw everything up then shoot that tube full of ancient explosive space magic cables. Choose wisely."

ps: sorry for my bad english (if its bad..)

[sAxMoNkI]

The Angry One wrote...

In the Extended Cut for destroy:

Kid: "Tell me another story about the Shepard."

Grandpa: "Alright... one more story.... BUZZZZZZZZ! Wait, no time for that now. We must report back to the collective and continue to calculate pi for the overlord."

I chuckled

[Busternated]

Steelgrave wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Only if you believe that conflict between Organics and Synthetics is inevitable. And the only reason you have to believe that is the Catalyst told you it was.

And the fact that it happens over & over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales & happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

It happened in every cycle which lasted exactly 50000 years thanks to the Reapers. So now we're past that point. Geth and Quarians are working together peacefully. Who's to say it will happen again? It might have happened once, the Reapers came (solution to that specific problem), after which they guided the races into their trap basically, killing them every 50000 years so it won't happen again...

See where I'm going here?

[eddieoctane]

OP, several problems with your logic:

1-You're trusting a billion year old AI/VI that was introduced right before the credits roll just to present that decision. Without any past interaction, you can't believe anything you hear. If I showed up inside your house and claimed I teleported inside because I was a wizard, and wouldn't let you ask any questions, would you believe me? Or would you want to know where I hid my lock-pick and grab the nearest weapon you can find because I'm an intruder in your home and most states would be totally fine with you shooting me in the face at that point?

2-Without the Reapers to render everyone extinct, we can't assume that the lessons learned over the Quarian-Geth conflict will be ignored. No one knows how dangerous a new race of synthetics are because the Reapers don't let anyone find out. They kill off everyone and cover the evidence. If you shoot everyone who knows about a certain topic, say the American Civil War, and burn all the history books referencing to it, how the hell would anyone know anything about the motivations behind it? "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." But the Reapers erase the history. Now that we have a history, there's a chance we won't repeat it.

3-Sythesis only resolves the conflict between the current races and the Geth. A purely synthetic system can still be created. Copper and silicon are still going to be copper and silicon. The basic components of the Geth can be recreated from the ground up, without any Reaper modifications. The code can be re-written. And now we have a purely synthetic being that is decidedly different from the techno-organic critters that everything else has been turned into. The conflict the star-child claims to be averting is caused by this divide, which will still be re-creatable unless sub-atomic particles are changed in ways that can't happen. Using some sort of Mass Effect field to nudge around particles in organic bodies is already breaking the suspension of disbelief. How the hell are subatomic particle going to be fundamentally altered in a way that causes any future robots to be semi-organic? You can't animate a quark. If it has a circuit board or cells, maybe. But a particle is still a particle. For that matter, a purely organic being should still rise up from some planet where life hasn't yet existed. Synthesis solves nothing.

[N7 Banshee Bait]

Zkyire wrote...

Organics are constantly waging war with each other too, much more often than synthetics.

That's a good point!  We probably won't have to worry about synthetics wiping out all life, the organics will probably take care of it eventually.  Just look how we advanced over the years from WWI to now. They don't dare start WWIII because they know that would be the end of us all.  The Reapers are needed to stop the chaos, whether it's organic vs. organic or synthetic vs. organic. Either way, left unchecked something will wipe out something.  

[adam32867]

eddieoctane wrote...

OP, several problems with your logic:

1-You're trusting a billion year old AI/VI that was introduced right before the credits roll just to present that decision. Without any past interaction, you can't believe anything you hear. If I showed up inside your house and claimed I teleported inside because I was a wizard, and wouldn't let you ask any questions, would you believe me? Or would you want to know where I hid my lock-pick and grab the nearest weapon you can find because I'm an intruder in your home and most states would be totally fine with you shooting me in the face at that point?

2-Without the Reapers to render everyone extinct, we can't assume that the lessons learned over the Quarian-Geth conflict will be ignored. No one knows how dangerous a new race of synthetics are because the Reapers don't let anyone find out. They kill off everyone and cover the evidence. If you shoot everyone who knows about a certain topic, say the American Civil War, and burn all the history books referencing to it, how the hell would anyone know anything about the motivations behind it? "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." But the Reapers erase the history. Now that we have a history, there's a chance we won't repeat it.

3-Sythesis only resolves the conflict between the current races and the Geth. A purely synthetic system can still be created. Copper and silicon are still going to be copper and silicon. The basic components of the Geth can be recreated from the ground up, without any Reaper modifications. The code can be re-written. And now we have a purely synthetic being that is decidedly different from the techno-organic critters that everything else has been turned into. The conflict the star-child claims to be averting is caused by this divide, which will still be re-creatable unless sub-atomic particles are changed in ways that can't happen. Using some sort of Mass Effect field to nudge around particles in organic bodies is already breaking the suspension of disbelief. How the hell are subatomic particle going to be fundamentally altered in a way that causes any future robots to be semi-organic? You can't animate a quark. If it has a circuit board or cells, maybe. But a particle is still a particle. For that matter, a purely organic being should still rise up from some planet where life hasn't yet existed. Synthesis solves nothing.

Respect

[adam32867]

Steelgrave wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Organics are constantly waging war with each other too, much more often than synthetics.

That's a good point!  We probably won't have to worry about synthetics wiping out all life, the organics will probably take care of it eventually.  Just look how we advanced over the years from WWI to now. They don't dare start WWIII because they know that would be the end of us all.  The Reapers are needed to stop the chaos, whether it's organic vs. organic or synthetic vs. organic. Either way, left unchecked something will wipe out something.  

like the reapers if left unchecked?

[Pasicrates]

As I figured it, the Catalyst was built to do one thing: Destroy the Reapers. I didn't care if it could create universal peace, as that was an unnatural evolution, it just wasn't right. It didn't mean peace was even going to be achieved, just that organic and synthetic life would merge. And I wasn't going to control the Reapers, because I knew that Shepard, as Paragon as he was, still had the potential of losing himself in the process, there was no guarantee he could become the universal lawbringer. And as a Paragon, I felt that it wasn't right to accept that responsibility, it was up to the galaxy to find it's own peace, not have it enforced upon them, like the Reapers did. What's more, Shepard tells the Starchild he wouldn't understand, that we wanted the ability to create our own destiny, and that's what he was doing by destroying the Reapers. The Geth were built once and can be built again, this time the Quarian and the rest of the Galaxy see the errors of their ways and will not make the same mistakes again. Will Synthetics rise up again? Who knows, but if that's the way history is to go, let it.

[UniqueNickname]

Steelgrave wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Organics are constantly waging war with each other too, much more often than synthetics.

That's a good point!  We probably won't have to worry about synthetics wiping out all life, the organics will probably take care of it eventually.  Just look how we advanced over the years from WWI to now. They don't dare start WWIII because they know that would be the end of us all.  The Reapers are needed to stop the chaos, whether it's organic vs. organic or synthetic vs. organic. Either way, left unchecked something will wipe out something.  

If unchecked, Reapers will wipe out all advanced civilizations. Same point. 

Pls read my post, basically there is nothing telling us if Catalyst was right or not. If there would be some animation or slideshow in the ending says "Shepard was wrong, eventually Geth 2.0 XP (lack of better terms) exterminated all organic life" then fine, I wouldn't arguing with you. But there is no such thing and it makes ending incomplete at best. 

[N7 Banshee Bait]

eddieoctane wrote...

OP, several problems with your logic:

1-You're trusting a billion year old AI/VI that was introduced right before the credits roll just to present that decision. Without any past interaction, you can't believe anything you hear. If I showed up inside your house and claimed I teleported inside because I was a wizard, and wouldn't let you ask any questions, would you believe me? Or would you want to know where I hid my lock-pick and grab the nearest weapon you can find because I'm an intruder in your home and most states would be totally fine with you shooting me in the face at that point?

2-Without the Reapers to render everyone extinct, we can't assume that the lessons learned over the Quarian-Geth conflict will be ignored. No one knows how dangerous a new race of synthetics are because the Reapers don't let anyone find out. They kill off everyone and cover the evidence. If you shoot everyone who knows about a certain topic, say the American Civil War, and burn all the history books referencing to it, how the hell would anyone know anything about the motivations behind it? "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." But the Reapers erase the history. Now that we have a history, there's a chance we won't repeat it.

3-Sythesis only resolves the conflict between the current races and the Geth. A purely synthetic system can still be created. Copper and silicon are still going to be copper and silicon. The basic components of the Geth can be recreated from the ground up, without any Reaper modifications. The code can be re-written. And now we have a purely synthetic being that is decidedly different from the techno-organic critters that everything else has been turned into. The conflict the star-child claims to be averting is caused by this divide, which will still be re-creatable unless sub-atomic particles are changed in ways that can't happen. Using some sort of Mass Effect field to nudge around particles in organic bodies is already breaking the suspension of disbelief. How the hell are subatomic particle going to be fundamentally altered in a way that causes any future robots to be semi-organic? You can't animate a quark. If it has a circuit board or cells, maybe. But a particle is still a particle. For that matter, a purely organic being should still rise up from some planet where life hasn't yet existed. Synthesis solves nothing.

 So basically there is no way to end the Mass Effect trilogy.  The Catalyst may be telling the truth or he may be lying his ass off. So no matter how they end it, there will still be a ton of questions.

Is destroying the Reapers a big mistake or the best thing for everybody? No way to know!  

What will happen if Shepard decides to control the Reapers? No way to know!

What will happen eventually if you choose synthesis?  No way to know!

[semidefinite]

Actually, the Catalyst said "The created will always rebel against there creators". And from what we know he was right.
The Geth were created by the Quarians and rebelled against them when they had to choose between killing or being killed.
EDI was created by Cerberus and rebelled against them when she had to decide between Shepard/Joker and TIM.
Was there ever a child that didn't rebel against their parents? Possibly somewhere, at some time.
So, is that really such a bad thing? That remains to be seen. So far the answer seems to be "no".

On an unrelated note: What's with everyone always assuming the villain of every story is always telling the truth. There was a time when villains used to lie and viewers expected them to, what happened to that. That was not a bad thing either. Some people lie to get to their goals, why are fictional villains no longer expected to do it?

[UniqueNickname]

Steelgrave wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

OP, several problems with your logic:

1-You're trusting a billion year old AI/VI that was introduced right before the credits roll just to present that decision. Without any past interaction, you can't believe anything you hear. If I showed up inside your house and claimed I teleported inside because I was a wizard, and wouldn't let you ask any questions, would you believe me? Or would you want to know where I hid my lock-pick and grab the nearest weapon you can find because I'm an intruder in your home and most states would be totally fine with you shooting me in the face at that point?

2-Without the Reapers to render everyone extinct, we can't assume that the lessons learned over the Quarian-Geth conflict will be ignored. No one knows how dangerous a new race of synthetics are because the Reapers don't let anyone find out. They kill off everyone and cover the evidence. If you shoot everyone who knows about a certain topic, say the American Civil War, and burn all the history books referencing to it, how the hell would anyone know anything about the motivations behind it? "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." But the Reapers erase the history. Now that we have a history, there's a chance we won't repeat it.

3-Sythesis only resolves the conflict between the current races and the Geth. A purely synthetic system can still be created. Copper and silicon are still going to be copper and silicon. The basic components of the Geth can be recreated from the ground up, without any Reaper modifications. The code can be re-written. And now we have a purely synthetic being that is decidedly different from the techno-organic critters that everything else has been turned into. The conflict the star-child claims to be averting is caused by this divide, which will still be re-creatable unless sub-atomic particles are changed in ways that can't happen. Using some sort of Mass Effect field to nudge around particles in organic bodies is already breaking the suspension of disbelief. How the hell are subatomic particle going to be fundamentally altered in a way that causes any future robots to be semi-organic? You can't animate a quark. If it has a circuit board or cells, maybe. But a particle is still a particle. For that matter, a purely organic being should still rise up from some planet where life hasn't yet existed. Synthesis solves nothing.

 So basically there is no way to end the Mass Effect trilogy.  The Catalyst may be telling the truth or he may be lying his ass off. So no matter how they end it, there will still be a ton of questions.

Is destroying the Reapers a big mistake or the best thing for everybody? No way to know!  

What will happen if Shepard decides to control the Reapers? No way to know!

What will happen eventually if you choose synthesis?  No way to know!

And that's one of little big things making ending bad. This supposed to be closure and if we are forced to do such radical choices, we deserve to know the outcome in the outro.