249 réponses à ce sujet

[Sparse]

Steelgrave wrote...
 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.
. 

People do 'get it', however the Catalyst's opinion is a totally unproven hypothesis. It is a wild opinion and nothing more. What the Catalyst is and where it came from is not even clearly explained. So a random entity with no clear origin promoting an unproven hypotheses?? There is no way of knowing if it is either telling the truth or is right so it should be discounted.

Synthesis is totally impossible within the lore of the universe - so unless it is incredibly bad writing then it remains impossible so is just a mechanic to get Shepard to commit suicide and fail to stop the Reapers.
Control is contrary to everything stated about the Reapers in the previous two games so again, unless it is incredibly bad writing, is just a mechanic to get Shepard to commit suicide and fail to stop the Reapers.
Destory, which the crazy AI tries to dissuade you from, is the only logical choice - unless the writing is just incredibly bad.

Modifié par Sparse, 24 avril 2012 - 04:01 .

[DJBare]

The Angry One wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...

FJVP wrote...

You do know why the geth attacked the quarians in the first place, right?

Self defense.  Like I said, the conflict WILL NEVER go away.  Things won't change in the future.  If you choose "destroy" you screw all organic life in the future.

Prove it.

They cannot, people like this seem to forget it's adversity that drives things forward "What does not kill you makes you stronger"

I mean lets forget the "fact" that most players brokered peace between the quarians and the geth; if it can be done once it can be done again, but there is always going to be conflict, that's the nature of the beast, utopia can never be a reality no matter how much we might want it.

Modifié par DJBare, 24 avril 2012 - 04:03 .

[N7 Banshee Bait]

UniqueNickname wrote...



If unchecked, Reapers will wipe out all advanced civilizations. Same point. 
 

No! It's not the same!  They harvest all *ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS*, they don't wipe out all life.


Ya know?  If the fans are going to say that everything is lying in the game there is no way Bioware can possibly make an ending.  No matter what they come up with the fans will say it's all a lie. They really can't go anywhere with this story because the fans will simply say " don't trust him, he's lying, that's not really how it happened.".  Javik is full of crap! Vigil is full of crap! The Catalyst & TIM are full of crap!  How is Bioware supposed to make an ending that the fans will believe?  So far the fans have ignored everything that has been said in all 3 games.

[aksoileau]

Destroy is the only way. Believing that a new form of reapers will magically create themselves and run amok is pretty contrived. Starchild's original solution was crap to begin with.

[The Angry One]

Steelgrave wrote...

No! It's not the same!  They harvest all *ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS*, they don't wipe out all life.


Ya know?  If the fans are going to say that everything is lying in the game there is no way Bioware can possibly make an ending.  No matter what they come up with the fans will say it's all a lie. They really can't go anywhere with this story because the fans will simply say " don't trust him, he's lying, that's not really how it happened.".  Javik is full of crap! Vigil is full of crap! The Catalyst & TIM are full of crap!  How is Bioware supposed to make an ending that the fans will believe?  So far the fans have ignored everything that has been said in all 3 games.

Javik is biased. Vigil never said anything about this. The Catalyst is a liar. TIM? Hey, newsflash. TIM is the bad guy. Also, indoctrinated. You going to believe Saren next?

Also, still waiting for you to answer my challenge:

The Angry One wrote...

I hereby present a challenge, OP.
Present one single example of an synthetic life form in Mass Effect even attempting to exterminate all organic life, 100% of it as per the Catalyst's claim.

As counter examples I provide:
- The Geth
- The Zha'til
- EDI
- The Reapers themselves

You only have to provide one. Go.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[Unschuld]

Steelgrave wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Regardless, I think people in the future would be a little bit more prepared and take better precautions in the future.

You gotta be kidding!  They didn't listen to Shepard's warning now, they won't in the future either.  People never learn, they just keep repeating the same mistakes century after century.

Well, might as well nuke everything then. That's the only sure way to solve the problem... until bacteria evolves again.

[Drummernate]

Billy the starkid can tell me whatever he wants.

The Geth will never die, no matter what I chose.

[txmn1016]

I think it comes down to a question of who created the Catalyst. Was it organics or synthetics? If it was synthetics, they obviously harvested some civilization to create the Reapers--meaning that organic life still persisted at that time.

If it was organics--doesn't it necessarily imply that organic life forms will always come back in this cycle of destruction?

This is why the Catalyst's logic didn't make total sense to me. If the Reapers required some sizable organic race to be created, doesn't it necessarily imply that organics were present in this cycle? If so, how could it have been concluded that synthetics will ultimately wipe out ALL organic life?

[d-boy15]

the fact that organic life still around prove that galaxy never go to that stage.

it's just a prediction of catalyst, calculate based on probability. reaper never let it go to
that stage or let it reach to critical.

so, there no prove that it will be happen or not. also, I think stargazer scene already tell
that even after 10,000 years, oraganics still exist.

all endings left future to be uncertain, there is no prove that in control and synthasis
the reaper will not come back or the peace will archieve forever.

Modifié par d-boy15, 24 avril 2012 - 04:19 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Steelgrave wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

OP, several problems with your logic:

1-You're trusting a billion year old AI/VI that was introduced right before the credits roll just to present that decision. Without any past interaction, you can't believe anything you hear. If I showed up inside your house and claimed I teleported inside because I was a wizard, and wouldn't let you ask any questions, would you believe me? Or would you want to know where I hid my lock-pick and grab the nearest weapon you can find because I'm an intruder in your home and most states would be totally fine with you shooting me in the face at that point?

2-Without the Reapers to render everyone extinct, we can't assume that the lessons learned over the Quarian-Geth conflict will be ignored. No one knows how dangerous a new race of synthetics are because the Reapers don't let anyone find out. They kill off everyone and cover the evidence. If you shoot everyone who knows about a certain topic, say the American Civil War, and burn all the history books referencing to it, how the hell would anyone know anything about the motivations behind it? "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." But the Reapers erase the history. Now that we have a history, there's a chance we won't repeat it.

3-Sythesis only resolves the conflict between the current races and the Geth. A purely synthetic system can still be created. Copper and silicon are still going to be copper and silicon. The basic components of the Geth can be recreated from the ground up, without any Reaper modifications. The code can be re-written. And now we have a purely synthetic being that is decidedly different from the techno-organic critters that everything else has been turned into. The conflict the star-child claims to be averting is caused by this divide, which will still be re-creatable unless sub-atomic particles are changed in ways that can't happen. Using some sort of Mass Effect field to nudge around particles in organic bodies is already breaking the suspension of disbelief. How the hell are subatomic particle going to be fundamentally altered in a way that causes any future robots to be semi-organic? You can't animate a quark. If it has a circuit board or cells, maybe. But a particle is still a particle. For that matter, a purely organic being should still rise up from some planet where life hasn't yet existed. Synthesis solves nothing.

 So basically there is no way to end the Mass Effect trilogy.  The Catalyst may be telling the truth or he may be lying his ass off. So no matter how they end it, there will still be a ton of questions.

Is destroying the Reapers a big mistake or the best thing for everybody? No way to know!  

What will happen if Shepard decides to control the Reapers? No way to know!

What will happen eventually if you choose synthesis?  No way to know!

I think OP finally get's it.

[N7 Banshee Bait]

jreezy wrote...



Sadly, it seems like you were the one not paying attention. 

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

I feel sorry for Bioware. There's no way in hell they can come up with an ending. They came up with 3 different endings & the fans won't accept any of them because every character in the game is lying.  They can come up with 20 more & the fans still won't accept them. The fans will come up with an argument for any ending they can think up.

Modifié par Steelgrave, 24 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Skull Bearer]

Or I could ignore the logic of a being whose idea of keeping synthetics from killing organics is to create synthetics to kill organics. I don't trust genocidal maniacs.

[The Angry One]

Steelgrave wrote...

jreezy wrote...



Sadly, it seems like you were the one not paying attention. 

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

I feel sorry for Bioware. There's no way in hell they can come up with an ending. They came up with 3 different endings & the fans won't accept any of them because every character in the game is lying.  They can come up with 20 more & the fans still won't accept them. The fans will come up with an argument for any ending they can think up.

Answer my challenge.

[Oakshire]

I'm with the OP on this one...

It doesn't have to be the next generation or the next 10 - but when Synthetics are made again - there WILL be new AIs - followed by self advancement of the AIs - which over powers the organics ability to adapt - which can create a non-sympathetic to organics synthetic (say that 10x fast...)

The next couple of generations would most likely be alright - but there is no reason someone wouldn't eventually start up the making of synthetics... space is pretty big and there are plenty of hiding spaces.

Even with the Geth... and Edi.. and others - the universe isnt limited to just those - there will be others - not all created out of the "goodness of humanity"

[Lyrebon]

Because a few people are convinced synthetic life will inevitably eradicate organics doesn't make it a certainty. Even an AI's predictions are all mathematically based on available information. It doesn't make them seers.

[N7 Banshee Bait]

Skull Bearer wrote...

Or I could ignore the logic of a being whose idea of keeping synthetics from killing organics is to create synthetics to kill organics. I don't trust genocidal maniacs.

Anybody that thinks like that should never have gone past ME1. They won't be happy no matter how it ended & should have known it half way through the first one. 

[The Angry One]

Oakshire wrote...

Even with the Geth... and Edi.. and others - the universe isnt limited to just those - there will be others - not all created out of the "goodness of humanity"

And? So? Therefore? That they'll even come close to wiping out all organic life is an assumption literally based on nothing.

There's no evidence, only an appeal to the authority of a mass murderer.

[txmn1016]

Steelgrave wrote...

jreezy wrote...



Sadly, it seems like you were the one not paying attention. 

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

I feel sorry for Bioware. There's no way in hell they can come up with an ending. They came up with 3 different endings & the fans won't accept any of them because every character in the game is lying.  They can come up with 20 more & the fans still won't accept them. The fans will come up with an argument for any ending they can think up.

I don't fall under this banner of "everybody in the game is lying", so I feel comfortable weighing in.  I'm only going to talk about the Catalyst here.  I don't consider the Catalyst a liar, more like an entity that has made specific assumptions about the path that sentient life will take.  The assumption may or may not be correct.  It seems that Shepard has at least partially proven it wrong by negotiating peace between the Quarians and the Geth.  So it's not necessarily calling the Catalyst a liar--more like concluding that it's assumptions aren't unshakeable.  

[Kreid]

I adhere to Clavain's words in Redemption Ark. (sci-fi book from Alastair Reynolds)

In a situation virtually identical to Shepard's:

"Clavain saw it all with sudden, heart-stopping clarity: all that mattered was the here and now. All that mattered was survival. Sentience that bowed down and accepted its own extinction — no matter what the long-term arguments, no matter how good the greater cause — was not the kind of sentience he was interested in preserving. Nor was it the kind he was interested in serving."

[goose2989]

Steelgrave wrote...

Helm505 wrote...

Only if you believe that conflict between Organics and Synthetics is inevitable. And the only reason you have to believe that is the Catalyst told you it was.

And the fact that it happens over & over again in every cycle throughout time.  Javik's cycle had the same problem. And the one before that, and the onebefore that..  You have to be completely out of touch with reality to believe it won't happen again. An optimistic daydreamer that believes in fairytales & happy endings. In other words, a complete IDIOT!

If you believe that, than BIoware went against one of its own intended themes by even allowing Shepard to create peace between the Quarians and the Geth, or even worse, allowing you to choose the Geth outright. 

[The Angry One]

Steelgrave wrote...

Skull Bearer wrote...

Or I could ignore the logic of a being whose idea of keeping synthetics from killing organics is to create synthetics to kill organics. I don't trust genocidal maniacs.

Anybody that thinks like that should never have gone past ME1. They won't be happy no matter how it ended & should have known it half way through the first one. 

Now you're just ranting randomly. What genocidal maniac were we trusting in ME1?

PS answer my challenge lol.

[wryterra]

Steelgrave wrote...

 If you choose the "destroy" ending synthetic life like the Geth will rise up again in the future & destroy all organic life. The Reaprs were created to prevent that from happening. If you choose "destroy" you're not just destroying the Reapers, you're destroying all organic life in the future.  You're killing your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Erasing their future.  The Catalyst even tells you this right out.  It's amazing how many players just don't get it.

If you choose "control" Shepard can bring the Reapers in to keep the synthetics under "control'. When they rise up agsint their creators Shepard can stop them.

If you choose "synthesis" there won't be any conflict between organics & synthetics anymore. The Reapers & the whole Mass Effect series is about the conflict between organcs & synthetics. If you combine the 2 you remove the conflict. No need for the Reapers or the cycle anymore. You achieve universal peace. 

Destroy: We have no proof that organics won't evolve to the point where they are aware enough to save themselves or not. 

Control: We have no promise for how long Shepard can control the Reapers nor if the unison is one way. Maybe Shepard will, in communion with the Reapers, decide their agenda was right in the first place. 

Synthesis: Nothing to stop the new species from wiping each other out or creating new purely synthetic life. 

In other words, no ending guarantees life will continue or that it will end. They're meaningless. 

[eddieoctane]

Steelgrave wrote...

 So basically there is no way to end the Mass Effect trilogy.  The Catalyst may be telling the truth or he may be lying his ass off. So no matter how they end it, there will still be a ton of questions.

Is destroying the Reapers a big mistake or the best thing for everybody? No way to know!  

What will happen if Shepard decides to control the Reapers? No way to know!

What will happen eventually if you choose synthesis?  No way to know!

If you believe the star-child, leaving the Reapers intact via control will bring them back to finish their work later. All you did was hit a galactic snooze button. You wanted to believe the Catalyst, so that's what you have to accept. Shepard just repalced him and will go one reaping the galaxy at a later date.

As far as synthesis goes, the fact that the volus evolved in an atmosphere totally incomatible with other forms of life and that the Elcor arose on a world with gravity that would kill anything else tells us that life always finds a way. As long as matter still behaves the same way, nitrogen can still  bind with other elements and create the same base proteins that evolved into life on Earth/Palaven/whereever. New, purely organic life will evolve. That's a given no matter what ending you chose. So there is still that organic/synthetic divide. We can make that asumption given the variety of life in the game and the nature of physics. And since the Reapers still exist and you took the kid seriously, someone is still going to go extinct thanks to them.

Destroying the Reapers is the only option that allows self-determination. We don't know what will happen. But it's the only scenario in which we have any choice.

[SerraAdvocate]

Steelgrave wrote...

jreezy wrote...



Sadly, it seems like you were the one not paying attention. 

Sorry, I paid attention.  The difference is, I'm not second guessing every single line of dialogue in the game like everybody else is. I'm not saying every character in the game is a liar like everybody else. The fans are saying that you can't trust anything TIM or the Catalyst says. So even though the game stated a million times that the created will always rebel against their creators, the fans are saying, "No!, They won't! You don't know what will happen in the future". Basically going against everything established in the game.

I feel sorry for Bioware. There's no way in hell they can come up with an ending. They came up with 3 different endings & the fans won't accept any of them because every character in the game is lying.  They can come up with 20 more & the fans still won't accept them. The fans will come up with an argument for any ending they can think up.

The amount I trust someone is directly proportional to the reasons I have to trust them. The self-professed creator and controller of the Reapers, whose solution to a problem I don't believe exists is the annihilation of all advanced organic life every 50,000 years, is not a being I have very many reasons to trust.

Particularly when the cut-scenes demonstrate that he wasn't entirely truthful.